Catholic Rites

  • Thread starter Thread starter jlkelly
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

jlkelly

Guest
Back in the fifties and sixties, I was taught that, in refering to the greater Church, the word preceding “Catholic” (as in Roman Catholic, Maronite Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, etc.) denoted the Catholic “rite.” “Catholic” referred to the whole church, under the pope, and the various rites had their own liturgies and traditions, which were recognized by the Church as legitimate and valid. I was also taught that there is (was?) a Latin Rite, which was observed only within the Vatican. I never heard that we were part of the “Latin” rite.
Lately, however, on Catholic radio, I believe I have heard “Latin” and “Roman” being used interchangably. I have also heard “Roman Catholic” being used to name the entire Catholic Church, not just that part using the Roman rite.
Were the good sisters who taught me incorrect? Did I mishear? Has this modifyer’s discriptive purpose been changed? Am I being too nit-picky?

John Kelly
theotherlawofmoses.com
 
jlkelly said:
Back in the fifties and sixties, I was taught that, in refering to the greater Church, the word preceding “Catholic” (as in Roman Catholic, Maronite Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, etc.) denoted the Catholic “rite.” “Catholic” referred to the whole church, under the pope, and the various rites had their own liturgies and traditions, which were recognized by the Church as legitimate and valid. I was also taught that there is (was?) a Latin Rite, which was observed only within the Vatican. I never heard that we were part of the “Latin” rite.
Lately, however, on Catholic radio, I believe I have heard “Latin” and “Roman” being used interchangably. I have also heard “Roman Catholic” being used to name the entire Catholic Church, not just that part using the Roman rite.
Were the good sisters who taught me incorrect? Did I mishear? Has this modifyer’s discriptive purpose been changed? Am I being too nit-picky?

John Kelly
theotherlawofmoses.com
Click to expand...
What you were taught seems correct. “Catholic” refers to those who follow the Pope. Roman Catholic, however, refers to Catholics in the West who follow the Latin Rite (the rite brought about by the Council of Trent, which is also known as the Tridentine Mass). Pope St. Gregory the Great was the pope who did a lot of the revising and setting up of the official Roman Version of the Liturgy known as “Pre-Tridentine” which was celebrated in Rome or better yet, celebrated in the West. This is why Western Catholics are referred to as Latin Catholics and Roman Catholics. The Novus Ordo or better known as the Mass of Paul IV, was brought about at Vatican II, which basically suppressed the Tridentine Mass, which used to be celebrated everywhere that was part of the Latin Rite.

So, all in all, you weren’t taught wrong, you were just not given greater details.

(BTW, if anyone sees anything wrong, please feel free to correct me, since this is just basic knowledge to what I have been taught/read.)

God Bless 😃
 
Bballer32 said:
The Novus Ordo or better known as the Mass of Paul IV, was brought about at Vatican II
Click to expand...
The Novus Ordo missal was not promulgated until 1969. Vatican II ended in 1965. Some see the Novus Ordo mass as a logical step to follow Vatican II, and Vatican II did discuss the idea of reforming the mass, but the Novus Ordo mass was not created at Vatican II.
jlkelly said:
I was also taught that there is (was?) a Latin Rite, which was observed only within the Vatican…I have also heard “Roman Catholic” being used to name the entire Catholic Church, not just that part using the Roman rite.
Click to expand...
The Tridentine, Extraordinary Form, Traditional Latin Mass, etc, is typically considered the edition of the Latin Ritual from 1962 all the way back to 1570 (the first canon of the missal pushed out a few years after the Council of Trent). This form of the mass is not typically observed in Rome, but there are many communities throughout the world who still use this form of the mass. Pope Benedict XVI’s Summorum Pontificum opened up this older form of the mass for wider use. Interestingly enough, the norms for the Novus Ordo (Ordinary Form) mass, including ad orientem (the priest with his back to the people), in Latin, communion on the tongue, and more, are actually much closer to the Extrordinary Form of the mass than to the typical mass that you’ll see today, though that’s a bit off-topic.

The term “Roman Catholic” has become a bit overloaded. In many uses, the “Roman Catholic Church” is the entire Church, including the eastern rites. A “Roman Catholic” person, on the other hand, normally means someone who belongs to the Roman (Latin) Rite.

Also, to further clarify, the “Extraordinary Form” (Tridentine, Traditional Latin Mass) and the “Ordinary Form” (Novus Ordo, what most churches use today) are taught to be two forms of the same Rite, namely the Latin Rite. This was outlined in Summorum Pontificum. Many have tried to abolish the Extraordinary Form of the mass or associate the Extraordinary Form of the mass with evils, but this is unfair and seems to be against the spirit of Pope Benedict XVI’s teaching. I’ll end with a short quote from Summorum Pontificum:

“What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.”
 
You did not learn wrongly, you were merely exposed to one aspect of some multi-faceted concepts.

“Rite” can mean liturgical rite or it can mean Church. “Latin Rite” might mean the Roman Rite, but it frequently means the Latin Church. These are confusing terms, but are even used in these ways by official Church documents.

If you see a reference to “a Latin rite” rather than “the” Latin Rite, they may be talking about the family of Latin liturgical rites, such as Roman, Ambrosian, Mozarabic, Dominican, Carthusian, etc.

Roman Catholic has several meanings. To many, especially Eastern Catholics, Roman Catholic refers to the Latin Church only, while to Protestants, Roman Catholic means the whole Catholic Church as distinct from Anglo-Catholic, for example. This is actually how the term Roman Catholic came to be in use, it was more or less a derogatory way for Anglicans to refer to Catholics under the Pope. It was embraced and converted into a descriptive term. However, a fringe minority of Catholics still insist they are not “ROMAN” but just “Catholic”.

The bottom line is that there are a lot of meanings to these words and a lot of usages, some ambiguous and some are specific. Some are official and some are imposed from outside. A lot of times it will depend on context. Personally I insist on accuracy and specific terms used wherever possible. Your mileage may vary.
 
Bballer32 said:
What you were taught seems correct. “Catholic” refers to those who follow the Pope. Roman Catholic, however, refers to Catholics in the West who follow the Latin Rite (the rite brought about by the Council of Trent, which is also known as the Tridentine Mass). Pope St. Gregory the Great was the pope who did a lot of the revising and setting up of the official Roman Version of the Liturgy known as “Pre-Tridentine” which was celebrated in Rome or better yet, celebrated in the West. This is why Western Catholics are referred to as Latin Catholics and Roman Catholics. The Novus Ordo or better known as the Mass of Paul IV, was brought about at Vatican II, which basically suppressed the Tridentine Mass, which used to be celebrated everywhere that was part of the Latin Rite.

So, all in all, you weren’t taught wrong, you were just not given greater details.

(BTW, if anyone sees anything wrong, please feel free to correct me, since this is just basic knowledge to what I have been taught/read.)

God Bless 😃
Click to expand...
Technically, the rite is called the “Roman Rite” not the “Latin Rite.” The Roman Rite is part of the “Latin Church.” The Latin Church has a number of “Latin Rites”, the Roman Rite being the most widely used The Council of Trent did not start the Roman Rite. All it did was limit the number of Latin Rites. Before the Council of Trent there were several more Latin rites.

Plus, there there are the Eastern Churches with their Rites.

See ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm
and
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_rites_and_churches

God Bless.
 
Thank you all for your replies. But I’m still confused. If “Latin” names a rite, are we properly called Latin Catholic? I don’t think so. I’ve never heard of such an appelation. Also, I was not asking about the mass, as celebrated by the Roman Catholic Church - whether it is celebrated in Latin or in the vernacular. All the Novus Ordo stuff is interesting, but it’s not what I was asking about. I was asking about Catholic rites and whether Roman Catholic means the Roman rite of the Cathoic Church. Or, further, whether Maronite or Ukrainian or Byzantine Catholics, while Catholic, should not be called Roman Catholic, any more than we Romans should be called Carthusian Catholics.
If, as some suggest, “Roman” refers, not to a rite, but to being under the pope, then what rite are we using? I don’t believe the Church is just kind of squishy about this, as some seem to suggest. She is not squishy about other structural tenets.
If al this seems valid, where is the term “Latin” coming from? It seems to pop up all the time on Catholic radio. Is it just an inexact term, meaning either the western Church, the Roman Church, the Tridentine advocates, the total Catholic Church, or someting else?
Beyond that, is there today, or was there ever, a “Latin” rite, practiced exclusively in the Vatican?
I thank you all for your patience.

John Kelly
theotherlawofmoses.com
 
There is no properly-termed Rite that is used alone in the Vatican, in terms of a liturgical patrimony that can stand alongside the Roman, Ambrosian, Byzantine, Alexandrian, etc. There are particular rites that are only observed there because of their nature, i.e. the imposition of the pallium on metropolitan archbishops, the bestowing of scarlet birettas to newly created cardinals, etc. And Latin as a language is frequently used, as is Italian and Greek and other languages which make up the Roman patrimony.

The other issue is that Rite can mean Church as I have explained. Many people here on CAF and especially the Eastern Catholicism forum would like you to know that there are distinctions between Rite and Church but this distinction is not always held up in practice. The official documents of the Church herself sometimes use Rite to mean Church and so we should accept the ambiguity at this point in time. However, Church is almost never meant to mean Rite, unless someone is operating under confusion of the two terms, and this confusion is common, since one can mean the other in context.

The Roman Rite is officially called the Roman Rite in the GIRM, as has been mentioned. That is unambiguous. The Latin Church is officially called that in the Code of Canon Law and that is the official name. However, the Latin Church is also called the Latin Rite in official Church documents, and however ambiguous the term may be, it clearly refers to the Latin Church by context.

And context is everything. As I have explained, “Roman Catholic” by its nature is ambiguous and always depends on context for its meaning. You simply cannot nail it down to one connotation.

Further reading:

Roman Catholic (term)
Latin liturgical rites
Roman Rite
Latin Church
 
If you’re talking about rituals and worship. Roman Rite in general specifically refers to the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms of Mass. There are other rites in the RC church but they aren’t defined as Roman rites like the Mozarabic, Dominican or Ambrosian rites.

Latin Rite is most often acknowledged as the EF Mass while OF is more commonly referred as Mass.

If it is church hierarchy you are talking about, Roman/Latin/Western refers to the Church in Rome with the Pope at the head without reference to the Eastern Churches.
Catholic Church typically lumps everyone together, including Eastern Catholics.
 
Bballer32 said:
What you were taught seems correct. “Catholic” refers to those who follow the Pope.
Click to expand...
1 Corinthians 1:12-13, friend.

Small correction, we do not follow the Pope and it’s demeaning to say we’re “under” the Pope, since we have our own hierarchy and the Pope does not exercise ordinary authority over us like he would constituents of the Latin Church. Our hierarchs are in communion with the Pope. The head of each individual sui iuris Church is the patriarch, major archbishop, catholicos, etc. The Pope has primacy amongst all these leaders. Nuanced, but it makes an ecclesiological difference. Our Catholicity pertains to the nature of our communion, not because we’re subject to someone.

In terms of Latin v. Roman, I think it makes more sense that someone is part of the Latin Church because it includes the various Latin rites (e.g. Roman, Dominican, Ambrosian, etc.) and most people just attend the Roman rite of the Latin Church.

Anyway, God bless the sisters who taught you - certainly more than what Catholic schools teach about the Eastern Churches now (I know because I went through 14 years of Catholic school). If you have any particular Eastern Catholic questions feel free to post them in the Eastern Catholic forum.

Small edition and side note: Just to clarify a small pet peeve (very small, so it’s no one’s fault), A Maronite is called a Maronite; it’s improper to call us Maronite Catholics because Maronites, by definition, are Catholic. Our Church’s official name does not include the word Catholic because, again, it is implicit in the definition. Saying Maronite Catholic is analogous to three-sided triangle or American Arizonian.
 
jlkelly said:
Thank you all for your replies. But I’m still confused. If “Latin” names a rite, are we properly called Latin Catholic? I don’t think so. I’ve never heard of such an appelation. Also, I was not asking about the mass, as celebrated by the Roman Catholic Church - whether it is celebrated in Latin or in the vernacular. All the Novus Ordo stuff is interesting, but it’s not what I was asking about. I was asking about Catholic rites and whether Roman Catholic means the Roman rite of the Cathoic Church. Or, further, whether Maronite or Ukrainian or Byzantine Catholics, while Catholic, should not be called Roman Catholic, any more than we Romans should be called Carthusian Catholics.
If, as some suggest, “Roman” refers, not to a rite, but to being under the pope, then what rite are we using? I don’t believe the Church is just kind of squishy about this, as some seem to suggest. She is not squishy about other structural tenets.
If al this seems valid, where is the term “Latin” coming from? It seems to pop up all the time on Catholic radio. Is it just an inexact term, meaning either the western Church, the Roman Church, the Tridentine advocates, the total Catholic Church, or someting else?
Beyond that, is there today, or was there ever, a “Latin” rite, practiced exclusively in the Vatican?
I thank you all for your patience.

John Kelly
theotherlawofmoses.com
Click to expand...
There technically there is not a rite called the “Latin Rite.” There are several Latin Rites. The Roman Rite is the name of BOTH the OF and EF. Technically, a “Roman Catholic” is a Catholic of the Roman Rite. Together, we are all “Catholics.” Anglicans starting calling us “Roman” because they protesting Rome and some protesting that the Roman Rite became dominant after the Council of Trent.
 
phil19034 said:
There technically there is not a rite called the “Latin Rite.” There are several Latin Rites. The Roman Rite is the name of BOTH the OF and EF. Technically, a “Roman Catholic” is a Catholic of the Roman Rite. Together, we are all “Catholics.” Anglicans starting calling us “Roman” because they protesting Rome and some protesting that the Roman Rite became dominant after the Council of Trent.
Click to expand...
SOme of the other Latin Rites being the Dominican Rite, the Ambrosian Rite, the Mozarabic Rite, the Bragan Rite, the Carthusian Rite…

The Dalmatian Rite is the same liturgy as the EF, but in Church Slavonic instead of Latin.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top