Catholic scholar on the "strength" of Mormon position

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FabiusMaximus

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I saw this interesting video on YouTube, where this Catholic scholar refers to the strength of the Mormon position.

Essentially he says that Mormonism has a very powerful argument, and that only the Roman Catholic Church could reasonably compete with it.

He said either Mormonism is correct, or it’s wrong. Protestantism is irrelevant, because it grew out of Roman Catholicism. If Mormonism is correct, and there was a massive apostasy, then this necessitated a man like Joseph Smith to restore the truth. Catholicism would be false, and Protestantism by default, because it came out of Catholicism.

The only other alternative is that Roman Catholicism did indeed keep the the Apostolic Succession granted to St. Peter. If that’s true, then Mormonism is ipso facto false and Protestants are merely apostates that were removed from the Church.

Just was wondering what the general reaction was to this. I think it’s a bit odd to say that Protestantism has less of an argument of validity than does Mormonism.

Here’s the video:
youtube.com/watch?v=vktEaSevdfE

***Edit: I’m assuming he indirectly includes Orthodoxy in this too, as part of the “Catholic side.” Don’t mean to downplay it.
 
The man’s right conceptually, and it’s why I’d probably be an Orthodox Christian if I ever reverted back to Christianity.

Tradition is as necessary to understand the Bible as reason is. Without it, you get a billion different groups bickering of baptism, dancing, music, worship style, semantics, etc.

In terms of Christianity, Apostolic Succession either is or isn’t. And if it isn’t, then God needs to intervene to continue “true” Christianity, which requires some sort of prophet or inspired reformer. Otherwise, Christianity is a dead religion. Protestants, of course, try to address this by citing that all of Christianity is guided by the Holy Spirit.

While I like to respect all religions and find many Protestant writers inspiring, I understand the man’s reasoning for dismissing Protestant thought. That, and this only applies within the context of this argument. Obviously Protestantism becomes more valid and the Church of JC of LDS less so when you take into account archaeology, history of the early movement, etc.

In fact, I’m willing to bet it’s why people are drawn to Mormonism. Not that there was any “Great Apostasy,” but the idea that God’s still speaking through a living, authoritative Prophet is a comfort to those who want to know why there’s so many differences, but have a bias against Apostolic Churches because of a Sola Scriptura upbringing.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
I think it’s a bit odd to say that Protestantism has less of an argument of validity than does Mormonism.
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Not just odd, a lie.
I see protestants as my brothers and sisters in Christ. We share the core beleifs of who God is. We share the same Baptism, we worship the same God.

These writings are not new.
 
There was a thread on this so many months back…‘Either Mormons or Catholics have it right’…

You can’t compare the two from what I can understand. The manner of foundation and development is different, and the problem with Mormonism is that it just ignores the foundation and development of Catholicism.
 
That’s an (unnamed) Catholic scholar all right! That statement is as fraudulent as Mormonism.

Jim Dandy
 
So Orson F Whitney (1855-1931) was the one who told the story about an Un-named, great Catholic scholar…yada yada yada???

We former Mormons dubb those sort of stories as the FPR…Faith promoting rumors…

Exactly who was this Catholic scholar?

It’s important to point out something here.

“The Strength of the Mormon Position” is, literally, a book Orson Whitney wrote.

He was selling a book to the choir…🤷
 
It’s just another Mormon lie…they make stuff up and some people are gullible enough to believe it. There is no “Catholic scholar”. Mormonism is not an alternative to Catholicism, that is a false dichotomy.

Bishop Duane Hunt, of the Salt Lake Diocese (c.1950s) wrote a book “The Continuity Of The Catholic Church”…it is a very good reply to the other lie of Mormonism, a “great apostasy”. I recommend reading it.

transporter.com/Mormonism/continuity.html
 
Orson F. Whitney claimed John M. Reiner was the “learned Doctor of Divinity.” John M. Reiner was a lay languages (not divinity) professor at Villanova. He was a convert from Judaism and a famous biblical scholar at the time. He escorted Grover Cleveland from New York to Philadelphia when Cleveland gave the commencement address there in 1902. The ‘Improvement Era’ claims he visited Utah in January 1898 on personal business and addressed some Mormons in the Tabernacle on a Sunday afternoon. The ‘Improvement Era’ was a publication of B.H. Roberts, and in it he responded to at least one of Reiner’s letters before Reiner asked him to stop publishing his letters. There is no record that Reiner and Whitney (Salt Lake City Treasure) ever met during Reiner’s visit. Reiner was still alive when Whitney first published it; so maybe he didn’t give the name of the ‘learned man’ because the ‘learned man’ could deny saying it.

This quote is a small part of a complete writing of Whitney. In it, Whitney wants to show how others believe Mormonism is ignorant and uncharitable. The way he refutes the others argument is the same way he does it here: We know we are right/smart/wise or even a ‘so what.’ No real argument just a ‘we know it is true,’ statement.
Orson F. Whitney:
A Catholic Opinion.–Many years ago there came to Salt Lake City a learned doctor of divinity, a member of the Roman Catholic Church. I became well acquainted with him, and we conversed freely and frankly. A great scholar, with perhaps a dozen, languages at his tongue’s end, he seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy, and was never weary of displaying his vast erudition. One day he said to me: “You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don’t even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that’s all there is to it. The Protestants haven’t a leg to stand on. If we are wrong, they are wrong with us, for they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right, they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we really have, as we claim, the apostolic succession from St. Peter, there was no need for Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary, and Mormonism’s attitude is the only consistent one. It is either the perpetuation of the Gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the Gospel in latter days. My reply to this clear and concise statement was as follows: “I agree with you, Doctor, in nearly all that you have said, but don’t deceive yourself with the notion that we “Mormons” are not aware of the strength of our position. We are better aware of it than anyone else. We have not all been to college; we cannot all speak the dead languages; we may be ‘ignoramuses,’ as you say; but we know we are right, and we know you are wrong.” I was just as frank with him as he had been with me.
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If apostolic succession was important, the Catholic ‘learned’ man would believe it was apostolic succession or nothing. He would also know that the Catholic Church is a Church with apostolic succession. He would also know the Mormon Church was less than 70 years old; therefore it did not have apostolic succession any more than any other 19th century Protestant denomination. A ‘learned’ man would not see an either-or with Mormonism. He would see it with Orthodoxy, but never with a new upstart religion. As irrational as this quote is; it makes sense to Mormons and makes them feel good. So I guess Whitney did his job.
 
RebeccaJ said:
It’s just another Mormon lie…they make stuff up and some people are gullible enough to believe it. There is no “Catholic scholar”. Mormonism is not an alternative to Catholicism, that is a false dichotomy.

Bishop Duane Hunt, of the Salt Lake Diocese (c.1950s) wrote a book “The Continuity Of The Catholic Church”…it is a very good reply to the other lie of Mormonism, a “great apostasy”. I recommend reading it.

transporter.com/Mormonism/continuity.html
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Great link, Rebecca. Thanks. 👍

Bishop Hunt did a great job there. 😃
 
RebeccaJ said:
It’s just another Mormon lie…they make stuff up and some people are gullible enough to believe it. There is no “Catholic scholar”. Mormonism is not an alternative to Catholicism, that is a false dichotomy.

Bishop Duane Hunt, of the Salt Lake Diocese (c.1950s) wrote a book “The Continuity Of The Catholic Church”…it is a very good reply to the other lie of Mormonism, a “great apostasy”. I recommend reading it.

transporter.com/Mormonism/continuity.html
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Yes, and then LeGrand Richards repeated the lie in “A Marvelous Work and A Wonder”, which probably is a MUCH wider read work than Whitney’s original. This is one of the first books I read after I joined the church.
 
TheExorcist said:
Yes, and then LeGrand Richards repeated the lie in “A Marvelous Work and A Wonder”, which probably is a MUCH wider read work than Whitney’s original. This is one of the first books I read after I joined the church.
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I remember “A Marvelous Work and A Wonder” being part of some boxed set of books.

It was like one of the Mormon Church’s “Top 10” books to read by the faithful.
 
Many Protestant denominations particularly in the US have doctrinal features in common with Mormonism. Those doctirnal similarities make it more difficult to refute Mormonism.
 
Jerusha said:
Many Protestant denominations particularly in the US have doctrinal features in common with Mormonism. Those doctirnal similarities make it more difficult to refute Mormonism.
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Like what??
 
Galatians 1:6-9 applies to Mormonism, as it applies to all of the others, to a greater or lesser extent, except the Orthodox Churches:

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel - not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.” RSV-Catholic Edition.

Galatians 1:6-9 applies to Islam, as well.

In Acts 20:28-30, Saint Paul foretells wolves among the flock.
 
Fink said:
Galatians 1:6-9 applies to Mormonism, as it applies to all of the others, to a greater or lesser extent, except the Orthodox Churches:

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel - not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.” RSV-Catholic Edition.

Galatians 1:6-9 applies to Islam, as well.

In Acts 20:28-30, Saint Paul foretells wolves among the flock.
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No Protestant sect teaches a different Gospel than either the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church. There is no justification for that.

We can discuss ad infinitum on whether the Catholic Church has the fullness of the faith. That’s a valid argument to make with regards to other Protestants. But arguing that Catholicism has the fullness is not the same as having the “real” Gospel. If Protestants don’t have the same Gospel as Roman Catholics, then you’re essentially saying we’re no better than Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses, which I am confident that is not at all what you mean.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
No Protestant sect teaches a different Gospel than either the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church. There is no justification for that.

We can discuss ad infinitum on whether the Catholic Church has the fullness of the faith. That’s a valid argument to make with regards to other Protestants. But arguing that Catholicism has the fullness is not the same as having the “real” Gospel. If Protestants don’t have the same Gospel as Roman Catholics, then you’re essentially saying we’re no better than Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses, which I am confident that is not at all what you mean.
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I used to be Southern Baptist. They teach Once Saved Always Saved, a very different Gospel. Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are also different Gospels, which all Protestants embrace. Christ and the Apostles.didn’t teach them.

The Catholic Church acknowledges that some Protestant ecclesial communities are closer to the Truth than others. All who have been validly baptized in the name of the Trinity are Christian. The Church refers to them as Separated Brethren. All Protestants have part of the truth; none have all of the truth. The absolute Truth subsists in the Catholic Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world.

Mormons, JWs, (and others) are not Christian.

Jim Dandy
 
Jim_Dandy said:
I used to be Southern Baptist. They teach Once Saved Always Saved, a very different Gospel. Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide are also different Gospels, which all Protestants embrace. Christ and the Apostles.didn’t teach them.

The Catholic Church acknowledges that some Protestant ecclesial communities are closer to the Truth than others. All who have been validly baptized in the name of the Trinity are Christian. The Church refers to them as Separated Brethren. All Protestants have part of the truth; none have all of the truth. The absolute Truth subsists in the Catholic Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world.

Mormons, JWs, (and others) are not Christian.

Jim Dandy
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I think you kind of contradict yourself here.
If Protestants are separated brethren, and have some of the truth, then they do not preach the a different Gospel. It is the same Gospel, but, according to Catholicism, incomplete, and/or flawed. Most Protestants would probably make the same assertion with regards to the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church as well (had to include them, the poor guys are always left out).
 
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