Catholic school boots student with gay parents

[Zoe_Brain]

From Tampa Bay Online :

BOULDER, Colo. (AP) – A Catholic school in Colorado is kicking out a preschooler because the child’s parents are lesbians.

The child will not be allowed to re-enroll next year at Sacred Heart of Jesus Catholic School. The Denver Archdiocese posted a statement Friday that the parents are “living in open discord with Catholic teaching.”

Quere: Is it right to reject a preschooler for the sins of the parents? If so, where does one draw the line - children born out of wedlock, parents who have divorced and remarried?

One argument is that to allow this preschool child to contaminate the others with his presence would be to have the Church appearing to condone sin. Another argument is that it’s children in such a sinful environment that most need Church guidance. A third argument is that it’s a preschool child, and regardless of the great matters of morality, treating a small child this way is inherently wrong, regardless of circumstances. I think all of these arguments have some merit, so I’m asking which one should outweigh the others.

For the reasoning behind this action, see
Statement by the Archdiocese.

I have my own opinions, but I’d rather hear others on the subject. I cannot be objective, as something rather similar happened to my son. He was disinvited from being re-enrolled in a Catholic pre-school because I am Intersexed. I made a vow at his Baptism to bring him up in the Catholic Faith, but this has proved most difficult. I have no good answers to give him as to why he was treated this way. He thinks it was unjust, and argues that “by their fruits shall ye know them”.

 

[Aboveallbereal]

My own view is that The Church should not be involved with the formal educational system at all.

I can only speak with confidence about Ireland. For historical reasons the Church runs 90% of primary school (5-12 yr. olds) but the reality is that no more than 25% ( my reasonably informed guess) of these children are being brought to mass or in any way meaningfully brought up in the faith. First Communion with the parents dressed up to the nines trying to remember when to stand and sit and counting the minutes til they get out.

In England non Christians queue up to get their kids into Church schools since they are seen to be “better” and all sorts of nonsensical stragegems are used to pretend catholicism.

Let’s cut out the nonsense. Run Sunday schols for parents who want their children educated in the Faith and accept that most parents with kids in Church school are in no meaningful way Catholic and just get on with it.

 

[Corki]

From Tampa Bay Online :

Quere: Is it right to reject a preschooler for the sins of the parents? If so, where does one draw the line - children born out of wedlock, parents who have divorced and remarried?

One argument is that to allow this preschool child to contaminate the others with his presence would be to have the Church appearing to condone sin. Another argument is that it’s children in such a sinful environment that most need Church guidance. A third argument is that it’s a preschool child, and regardless of the great matters of morality, treating a small child this way is inherently wrong, regardless of circumstances. I think all of these arguments have some merit, so I’m asking which one should outweigh the others.

For the reasoning behind this action, see
Statement by the Archdiocese.

I know of a similar situation at one of my kids’ schools. In that case, the children were not removed but the parents were called in for a “talk”. It wasn’t a gay couple but one living together without marriage. They were told that the kids would be learning that what the parents did was sinful. The oldest was in 5th or 6th grade and this would have been covered in religion class. It puts the kids in a difficult situation to be taught in school that the actions of their parents are objectively sinful. In this case, the parents chose to separate for the sake of the children.

I am guessing there may be a lot more to the story in the OP. There have been several cases like this around the country. Usually, the gay couple is told that they cannot present themselves as a couple at school events, etc. This means one of the “mothers” would be the only one at a parent-teacher conference, for example, and there could not be any PDAs on school property or at school events. It’s quite possible that the couple were unwilling to provide a presence to the school community that was in harmony with Church teaching.

The other examples you give are different in that they are not publically sinful. A child born out of wedlock to a single mother is a living witness of a past sin, perhaps but not a present sinful lifestyle. The divorced and remarried couple is only publically out of step with Church teaching if the parents tell others about thier situation.

 

[mjs1987]

So government schools of indoctrination are better than Catholic schools? I would much rather have Catholic schools over government schools where students are brainwashed into whatever the government dictates. In many European countries homeschooling is illegal because governments fear what would happen if students were not indoctrinated where they could control everything about the education. In the United States, high school students in government schools get taught that all religions are pretty much the same and that atheistic evolution is the only way. Any wonder why teen sex and STD rates are so high along with the large amount of young people that leave the faith especially in high school and college? No thanks, I would rather homeschool than allow the government to indoctrinate my kids in whatever the government wants to shove down their throats. Catholic and independent schools are better but cost a good chunk of change and even many Catholic schools are poor at catechesis.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Preschoolers in public schools (there are a few preK classrooms, but not many in publics), and preschoolers in Catholic schools (similarly the exception to the rule) aren’t given any lessons in sex or sexual morality (that I know of), so the fact that the parents are lesbians shouldn’t be an issue for the student’s enrollment, strictly speaking, at this age.

Here’s the rub, though:
-Catholic schools commit themselves to supporting the continued enrollment of the student, from grade to grade. Later (soon enough) the student will in fact become instructed in Catholic moral tenets, such as what constitutes a valid family in the eyes of God, etc., and the fact that the church acknowledges only heterosexual coupling. It would be awkward to pull the child out even later, at some defining moment.

-Catholic schools hold that the parents/family of the student is for all practical purposes an extension of the school; they expect parents to be involved (and take responsibility) more intensely, regularly, than is expected (or could be ever be enforced) in publics. The corollary of the that is that the school expects to support the family. There is a kind of two-way accountability. Thus, the school would naturally see the lesbian situation as contrary, problematic to that mutuality.

-Parents or guardians enrolling children must agree to the moral teachings which will be presented, as a condition of enrollment. Those moral teachings include Catholic teachings on sexuality, which is directly opposed to the lifestyle being lived by the lesbians. Now, technically, Catholic heterosexual parents associated with that school could be teaching principles which are also contradictory to what their children are being taught at that school, but with a lesbian couple, the school would know for a fact that there is a lifestyle being “taught” (modeled) which is directly opposed to the school’s curriculum content.

-Catholic institutions (not just schools) are conscious of the possibility of scandal to students and to other parents, and to a contradictory message sent as a religious institution imparting specific precepts. In that sense also, the enrollment in the first place could be considered a cause for scandal.

Catholic institutions other than schools do employ openly gay people (such as in diocesan offices) and do support partner benefits, such as bereavement leave, etc. But those are not institutions witnessing to the cohesion of family life as an institution, which Catholic schools are.

I think this subject has come up before on CAF (though obviously not this incident), and a poster pointed out some dichotomies – such as divorced parents in Catholic schools, etc. Again, though, Catholicism does not condemn divorce, just remarriage, and the visibliity of a heterosexual couple (whether an original marriage or an invalid remarriage) is not equal to that of a same-sex couple.

I think it would be ridiculous to disenroll the child of an intersexed person, because of the lack of choice on the part of the parent, but the Colorado incident involves chosen lifestyle.

I’ve said this before, maybe 5 times on CAF: I would not try to seek acceptance for myself or my lifestyle if I were gay, within the confines of a Catholic institution – and certainly not in a school setting. It is problematic on its face. If I wanted acceptance on equal terms, in every way, I would join a different church, or I would renounce any active practice of that lifestyle, should I want to remain a member in good standing in the Church, without controversy. (Thus, it would require one to live as celibate, not to cohabit with a partner of romantic interest, and certainly not to create a formal partnership such as “parenthood”/guardianship of children.) Everything is problematic, in that even the terminology conflicts with Catholic principles. It puts both the couple and the Church in an impossible position given that the institution does not accept dual “motherhood” of one child, while two lesbian guardians of one child maintain that both wish to be called “mother.”

 

[Greg27]

In my view such actions are problematic for a number of reasons. First, in my view this is problematic because really, which parent(s) are perfect and without ‘sin’ of some kind? Is it any better from a moral point of view to effectively vicariously punish a pre-school age child for the actions of its parents? What if the same policy was adopted towards single parents (i.e. separated or divorced) and then extended to non-Catholics? In my view such a policy is wrong-headed in various ways, but basically because it is punishing an innocent child because ecclesial authorities do not approve of the parental arrangement of the parents themselves.

In my view the authorities should have taken the matter up with the parents (i.e. the school has a certain ethos and beliefs) and dealt with it by the parents. I am not exactly sure why a gay couple would send their child to a Catholic school, but in my view so long as the parents are stable in their relationship, and do not actively try to bring the school and its teachings into contempt, and pay their fees, a child should never be punished by depriving it of a fundamental right (to be educated) because of the faults or mistakes of its parents. A child should be judged and punished only according to his or her own actions and according to his or her ability to understand right and wrong.

 

[Elizabeth502]

But that whole second paragraph of yours is at odds with the entire philosophy and practice of Catholic schooling; that’s the problem, and that’s what I was explaining in my post. One doesn’t view the student, in Catholic education, as some entity separate from his or her parents. It’s virtually a family who enrolls, even though technically only the student is the enrollee. The relationship is between the school and the family, not the school and just the student. This is much more pronounced than in any public school I have ever taught in or attended. Public schools do have a relationship with parents, but it’s much more distant and way less accountable. And certainly public schools are dramatically different in the absence of any moral content in the core of the curriculum.

Actually the couple could be seen by the Church as “bringing into contempt” Church teachings, just by the fact that they are engaging in a cohabiting disordered sexual relationship, openly, while sending “their” child to a Catholic school.

No child “has a fundamental right” to be educated in a private school, of any type. Public schools are available to every child in this country. Many morally non-controversial families do not succeed in getting their children into private schools of all kinds, due to entrance standards and many other factors.

I am not exactly sure why a gay couple would send their child to a Catholic school

That’s exactly what I said.

 

[Lethe]

Well, not everything is black and white… There can be gay Catholics, just as there can be remarried Catholics and Catholics who have fornicated. I’m not saying everyone would view them as Catholic, but they may view themselves as Catholic, or at least want their child to be brought up Catholic. There IS forgiveness in Christianity.

I myself am agonstic/atheist, but I still think religious schools are a good idea - I grew up with Christian morals, and I think I’m the better for it, whether or not I believe in God.

I don’t think the child should be booted out of the school for having gay parents - they may be more obvious in their sins, but I bet you any number of the other heterosexual parents have equally bad ones.

 

[PaulinVA]

Okay, I originally read the articles with an eye toward the idea that this should not be playing out in the media. But, after reading the statement and the priest’s blog, I have to say that they handle this with discretion.

It does sound like they are trying to take the child into account. Basically, at a certain point in the schooling of this child, the parents are going to be paying for the school to be telling the child that his/her parents are bad, wrong, sinful, whatever. No one should put a child through that. This school should be able to teach that, though.

So, it’s a child-centered decision. Too bad the couple apparently went to the media.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I agree with post #9. One could even argue that any controversial couple (gay, straight but fornicating, etc.) is putting the child at risk by putting the child in that environment at the same time as not being discreet, but somewhat or very much “in your face” about a lifestyle, about titles, about publicity. The very fact of “being a lesbian couple” (i.e. being “parents” of that student-- the term “parents” in this case being fundamentally at odds with Catholic moral teaching) does not qualify as being discreet (“minding their own business”). The lesbian couple wouldn’t have become known or obvious as lesbians (forgetting about the media) if the student hadn’t been enrolled in the school, because parents, plural, show up at most schools (eventually) if there are two parents, and they particularly do so at Catholic schools.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

If a child’s mother and father are cohabiting and not married, they’re still the child’s parents.
A lesbian couple are not the child’s parents. You cannot have two women showing up both claiming to be the child’s mother.

 

[pnewton]

I understand both sides, but on balance I have to applaud the decision of the Diocese. It is regretful that the child suffers for the sin of the parents, but is *their *sin that causes this to be an issue, not the callousness of the Diocese. Other parents appreciate sending their preschool age children to a place where we do not have to worry at that tender age why Johnny has two mommies and no daddy. Heck, I don’t even understand it. If the school properly did their job, as the issue came up, they would be put in a position of having to answer questions in a way that would show Johnny’s mommies in a state of mortal sin. He would have to go where everyone says his mommy’s are going to Hell. Yes, preschoolers talk about such things.

Lesbians leaving as a couple with children is a curse our society created. Let the public schools deal with the fallout. Gays make a big demand for special rights, yet do not want the consequences of their actions.

On a practical side, it is hard for any private school to turn their back on tuition in this day and age. Compromise is more common that courage.

 

[hellopeople]

So government schools of indoctrination are better than Catholic schools? I would much rather have Catholic schools over government schools where students are brainwashed into whatever the government dictates. In many European countries homeschooling is illegal because governments fear what would happen if students were not indoctrinated where they could control everything about the education. In the United States, high school students in government schools get taught that all religions are pretty much the same and that atheistic evolution is the only way. Any wonder why teen sex and STD rates are so high along with the large amount of young people that leave the faith especially in high school and college? No thanks, I would rather homeschool than allow the government to indoctrinate my kids in whatever the government wants to shove down their throats. Catholic and independent schools are better but cost a good chunk of change and even many Catholic schools are poor at catechesis.

This isn’t very accurate. I went to a Catholic elementary school and Catholic high school. Trust me, the morality at the Catholic high school was not any better than the public school in my town. And if anyone is brainwashed, it is the Catholic schools to be honest…because they preach loyalty to the country as well as Catholicism.

 

[pnewton]

I know that in these cases all sorts of comparison of sin will be made. For almost every grave sin, a scenario can be written just as serious. What if Daddy was an act pedophile? What if the Mommy was an active prostitute? What if Daddy was dealing drugs? There are other sins blatant, grave and scandolous that would give rise to the same action.

 

[pnewton]

This isn’t very accurate. I went to a Catholic elementary school and Catholic high school. Trust me, the morality at the Catholic high school was not any better than the public school in my town.

All the more reason to draw the line on the incursion society’s acceptance and normalization of sin.

And if anyone is brainwashed, it is the Catholic schools to be honest…because they preach loyalty to the country as well as Catholicism.

You do understand the Catholic in Catholic School stands for Catholicism don’t you? Likewise the Catholic in Catholic Answers Forum. Yes, Catholicism will be taught. I do not think sleep deprivation, starvation, bright lights or any other extreme techiniques are used, even in Boulder.

 

[gamewell45]

I think the church has an unfettered right to run their schools as they deem fit within legal parameters. While unfortunate for the child, if thats what the churches position is on the the parents lifestyle, so be it. There are many options out there that the parents can choose as an alternative.

 

[AnotherVoice]

My heart goes out to the little child. Life is tough but the bumps should not start in pre-school.

 

[markomalley]

From Tampa Bay Online :

Quere: Is it right to reject a preschooler for the sins of the parents? If so, where does one draw the line - children born out of wedlock, parents who have divorced and remarried?

It is an obligation not to confuse the child or to confuse the other children.

I would think that it would be appropriate to exclude a child whose parents encourage him or her to dissent against Church teaching. I would think that it would be appropriate to exclude a child whose parents are not living in accord with Church teaching and forcibly rebel against the Church (i.e., we are right, the Church is wrong).

For example, I wouldn’t see a problem educating a child of Protestant parents in of itself, but if the child’s parents were fundamentalists and encouraged the child to speak out when they say the Hail Mary at the beginning of the school day or to leave Chick Tracts in the school’s bathroom, it would become a problem.

I wouldn’t see a problem educating a child of a homosexual man or woman (including one who lives with his/her partner), but if the parents start complaining when the school teaches the proper, Christian role of parents, that’s when it starts to be a problem. If the parent and his/her partner insist that the school call both the parent and his/her partner the child’s “daddy” and “other daddy” or “mommy” and “other mommy,” that’s when it becomes a problem.

Likewise, I would not see it being a problem for a heterosexual couple living “in sin,” until that couple tries to pressure the school into seeing their living arrangements as normal and tries to get the Church to water down Her teachings to accommodate the sin of the parent (and partner).

I have my own opinions, but I’d rather hear others on the subject. I cannot be objective, as something rather similar happened to my son. He was disinvited from being re-enrolled in a Catholic pre-school because I am Intersexed. I made a vow at his Baptism to bring him up in the Catholic Faith, but this has proved most difficult. I have no good answers to give him as to why he was treated this way. He thinks it was unjust, and argues that “by their fruits shall ye know them”.

I don’t know what to say about your situation. If you are in a situation where you were born with physical characteristics of both sexes by birth, then that’s one thing. If you are that way as a result of your actions, that is another thing altogether. And how you choose to live your life is the biggest thing above all.

The details of your personal life are really none of any of our business, but if you actually living chastely in an appropriate fashion according to your state in life according to the teachings of the Church, I think an injustice was done to you by the director of that preschool. If you haven’t done so, I would suggest making an appointment with the pastor of the parish responsible for this pre-school. On the other hand, if you are not living chastely according to the teachings of the Church, then that’s another situation altogether.

FWIW

 

[choy]

From Tampa Bay Online :

Quere: Is it right to reject a preschooler for the sins of the parents? If so, where does one draw the line - children born out of wedlock, parents who have divorced and remarried?

One argument is that to allow this preschool child to contaminate the others with his presence would be to have the Church appearing to condone sin. Another argument is that it’s children in such a sinful environment that most need Church guidance. A third argument is that it’s a preschool child, and regardless of the great matters of morality, treating a small child this way is inherently wrong, regardless of circumstances. I think all of these arguments have some merit, so I’m asking which one should outweigh the others.

For the reasoning behind this action, see
Statement by the Archdiocese.

I have my own opinions, but I’d rather hear others on the subject. I cannot be objective, as something rather similar happened to my son. He was disinvited from being re-enrolled in a Catholic pre-school because I am Intersexed. I made a vow at his Baptism to bring him up in the Catholic Faith, but this has proved most difficult. I have no good answers to give him as to why he was treated this way. He thinks it was unjust, and argues that “by their fruits shall ye know them”.

i had a similar thread, that in the Philippines the Catholic Church and the Catholic School System wants to be exempted from a law protecting women’s rights, that they want to have the right to expell unmarried women who get pregnant

now, i have the same view on this issue. that is, if you kick the student out, who will teach them the right values?

in the case of the pregnant girl, she obviously already has a skewed view on morals, who’s to correct it? and for the child, who will teach him/her whats right? that child will grow in a house where both parents are of the same sex. therefore the child will be taught that it is okay and that it is natural. who will teach him right from wrong? moreover, its the sin of the parents, not the sin of the child.

if it were up to me, i’d keep the child in the Catholic school and teach him the right Catholic values, which i’m pretty sure he will not get from his parents

 

[Aboveallbereal]

This isn’t very accurate. I went to a Catholic elementary school and Catholic high school. Trust me, the morality at the Catholic high school was not any better than the public school in my town. And if anyone is brainwashed, it is the Catholic schools to be honest…because they preach loyalty to the country as well as Catholicism.

You will find that the secular humanist presuppositions underlying public - and most soi disant catholic - education are so ingrained, so culturally normalised and mainstream that the indoctrination in public schools is unnoticed by people simply because it is seen as simply teaching a set of absolute truths re justice democracy sexuality etc when it fact it is culturally specific programming.

The reality is tha tto an extent all education does likewise.