Catholic school changing tradition: "In the name of the Creator, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit"

[goout]

Do not call the bishop. First the parents speak to the catechist. Then the pastor. If it merits a call to the bishop, the pastor is perfectly capable of making that happen.
Your bishop has a pile of these letters.

 

[LilyM]

To call the Father the creator but not the Son is an Arian way of thinking

Have you not read what I posted?

Our Apostles and Nicene creeds that we say every week at Mass both do EXACTLY that - they both call the Father Creator.but not the Son!

Talk about pot calling the kettle black!

 

[LilyM]

Show me one place where we say that the Father is the creator, not the son.

Happily - as soon as you show me anywhere in the prayer the OP posted that that prayer says the Father is the creator and.not.the son.

Neither says any such thing, of course. So.why on earth is the creed OK and the other being blasted as heretical?

 

[Tecnologgamer]

Keep saying “In the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit”, modern world hates the faterhood figure. Obey the tradition and bring back those who are willing to do right and let those that reject tradition account with God later.

 

[LilyM]

Because the creed calls Jesus the creator.

“I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father. Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made.”

The Apostles Creed says none of this. It definitely does NOT say Jesus is Creator! Again, why is it acceptable to pray the Apostles Creed at Mass and heretical to pray the prayer in the OP?

 

[AlbMagno]

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.

Here is the Apostles’ Creed in english as proof.

I don’t agree with the change in the Sign of the Cross, though. It clearly is a feminist attempt to adknowledge the genderless nature of the Spirit of God, however, it also undermines His Fatherhood, revealed by Him Himself.

 

[AlbMagno]

The best approach, I think, is to ask and, if the answer is not satisfactory, show the text of the CDF, preferably to the Chaplain or Nun in charge of the school.

And I find shameful the attempt of some posters to promote the TLM with the issue. The thread is not at all about the Mass, and you invite a kid to a TLM Mass

 

[yankeesouth]

Even though you suspect they would keep up with this nonsense you should still ask them why. You can ask a teacher privately. Ask followup questions also like…‘should we baptize using this formula’?

The Sign of the Cross is a sign of our Baptism so why would you change the formula to one that was not used in the actual Baptism?

 

[LilyM]

27lw:

Hmmm.
I’ve never heard of this Amish approach to new things.
Is there a source you could point me to?

It’s just common knowledge among anyone who has had any dealings with, or has lived or worked alongside the Amish, but since you need to see sources to back up the idea, here goes:

Amish Community Not Anti-Technology, Just More Thoughtful : All Tech Considered : NPR
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...9fa0ba-36fc-11ea-bf30-ad313e4ec754_story.html
https://amishamerica.com/do-amish-use-technology/

Keep in mind, too, that the Amish are not monolithic, and they do not have “hive mind” — there are many different types of Amish, some more liberal than others.

As for adopting everything new and trendy willy-nilly, and the cringe-worthy results that can come from it, I refer you to the 1970s. Fashion, interior decorating, and music come immediately to mind (though some of the music has endured and was not bad at all, the Eagles and even KISS if you like that sort of thing).

Full disclosure: I have distant Pennsylvania Dutch ancestry, basically Mennonite but I just say “Amish” because nobody outside of Pennsylvania has the slightest idea what a Mennonite is, but they know what Amish are, or they think they do, anyway.

And my first rock concert ever was KISS. Iconic.

My sister and BIL buy farm supplies from members of a Mennonite group in North-West Tasmania, Australia. So some of us are mindful of the differences.

 

[AlbMagno]

But it isn’t pertinent to the thread, I don’t promote the OF or a Devotion in any thread just because I like it.

This is the kind of sectarian behaviors that sometimes stain the good things about Traditionalism.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

But it isn’t pertinent to the thread, I don’t promote the OF or a Devotion in any thread just because I like it.

This is the kind of sectarian behaviors that sometimes stain the good things about Traditionalism.

It’s not “sectarian”. The TLM is recognized by the Church as a perfectly legitimate worship option, after a period of 20 to 40 years where the relevance of Quo primum was kind of hazy. Pope Benedict XVI fixed all of that with Summorum pontificum.

It is never inappropriate to recommend the TLM to any Latin Rite Catholic. Would it be a bad thing to recommend to a TLM adherent that most people find the Ordinary Form the best way of meeting their own spiritual needs?

 

[AlbMagno]

I’ve said it’s sectarian because it is not pertinent to the discussion topic. I’ve never claimed the TLM is invalid or illicit.

 

[Emeraldlady]

It is never inappropriate to recommend the TLM to any Latin Rite Catholic. Would it be a bad thing to recommend to a TLM adherent that most people find the Ordinary Form the best way of meeting their own spiritual needs?

The OP who is in Grade 11 is obviously from a religious family and her mother prudently advised her to tolerate this thing for the sake of her schooling. I agree with her mother having experienced the same sort of thing with my daughter. I would not like my daughter to develop the approach to the Church that you have. I accept that you legitimately love all things tradition but I have gently warned my daughter about groups she has encountered that look down on us ordinary long time practicing Catholics. It’s not a holy path.

 

[ThomasMT]

If female priesthood or blurring gender distinctions is the aim, why not describe God as female? And why not use a gemder-neutral term for Jesus.instead of His very maaculine given.name?

I do think you may be reading slightly more into this than there is. Again, I think.it is problematic but I don’t think there is enough to blast them.as heretics just yet.

You do not condition generations with giant leaps, but incremental and seemingly “harmeless” yet insidious baby steps.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

The OP who is in Grade 11 is obviously from a religious family and her mother prudently advised her to tolerate this thing for the sake of her schooling. I agree with her mother having experienced the same sort of thing with my daughter. I would not like my daughter to develop the approach to the Church that you have. I accept that you legitimately love all things tradition but I have gently warned my daughter about groups she has encountered that look down on us ordinary long time practicing Catholics. It’s not a holy path.

“The approach to the Church that I have”. Could you elaborate?

I do not “look down on… ordinary long time practicing Catholics”. I think everybody is capable of making up their own minds whether traditional or more recently-introduced forms of divine liturgy lead them to greater holiness. I am perfectly willing to give a fair hearing to anyone who says “the new liturgy is more conducive to piety, holiness, and reverence towards Our Eucharistic Lord because…”. I just ask that those who adhere to the newer liturgy understand why some prefer the old rite, and are willing to consider the sensibilities of those who might say “the traditional liturgy is more conducive to piety, holiness, and reverence towards Our Eucharistic Lord because…”. What could be fairer than that?

Grade 11 is quite mature enough to be able to consider different schools of thought on the Mass. I know I was mature enough to explore these themes when I was in Grade 11. It was the late 1970s and my school’s library still had many pre-Vatican II books. I started reading these and I started asking questions. The questions weren’t well-received but I asked them anyway. Then I got hold of a Latin missal and said “this is so beautiful, this is so holy — what exactly was ‘wrong’ with this, such that we’re discouraged from even speaking of it now?”. Nobody was really able to answer this. Nor can they now.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

The OP who is in Grade 11 is obviously from a religious family and her mother prudently advised her to tolerate this thing for the sake of her schooling. I agree with her mother having experienced the same sort of thing with my daughter. I would not like my daughter to develop the approach to the Church that you have. I accept that you legitimately love all things tradition but I have gently warned my daughter about groups she has encountered that look down on us ordinary long time practicing Catholics. It’s not a holy path.

“The approach to the Church that I have”. Could you elaborate?

If my daughter had started saying to me I only tolerate this Mass because the TLM is not near me. Or I only receive in the hand grudgingly because if profanes the Body of Christ. Or I will give the sign of peace only our of obedience because all these people are high fiveing or kissing their spouses on and on and on… I would say to my daughter, darling perhaps you aren’t in the right disposition to receive this Thanksgiving gift. This is the Eucharist, the Thanksgiving we offer to heaven for the great gift of Christs sacrifice. I would remind her that her ancestors celebrated Mass on the beach as they arrived in this country filled with thanks for a safe journey and a new home and that was just as authentic and holy as any place because of what was in their hearts. I would say to her that Mass is not all about her and her wants and preferences. It is about Communion with Jesus and Communion with all those around us regardless of how devout or unholy they appear to be acting.

That’s why I don’t want her to embrace those attitudes.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

If my daughter had started saying to me I only tolerate this Mass because the TLM is not near me. Or I only receive in the hand grudgingly because if profanes the Body of Christ. Or I will give the sign of peace only our of obedience because all these people are high fiveing or kissing their spouses on and on and on… I would say to my daughter, darling perhaps you aren’t in the right disposition to receive this Thanksgiving gift. This is the Eucharist, the Thanksgiving we offer to heaven for the great gift of Christs sacrifice. I would remind her that her ancestors celebrated Mass on the beach as they arrived in this country filled with thanks for a safe journey and a new home and that was just as authentic and holy as any place because of what was in their hearts. I would say to her that Mass is not all about her and her wants and preferences. It is about Communion with Jesus and Communion with all those around us regardless of how devout or unholy they appear to be acting.

I am quite aware that Mass is not “all about me and my wants and preferences”. Many, many people have expressed misgivings about certain aspects of the New Mass, CITH, and the communal SOP. I’m far from the only one, and far from the least tolerant.

Let’s suppose, and this probably will never happen, but let’s suppose that the next Pope declares that the vernacular Novus Ordo was a failed experiment — he would be within his rights, after all, he’s the Pope! — and liturgically turns the clock back to 1962. If people object to this, and say “the Church can’t do this, we love the New Mass!”, will we tell those people “please understand that the Mass is not all about you, and your wants and preferences”? Would they be within their rights to form organizations, and write books, and listen to speakers and podcasts, and to beg the Church “please reconsider, you’ve gone too far”? And, after 40 years, if they were to secure a limited, exceptional permission to have their New Mass here and there, would they be within their rights to try to “get the word out” and persuade others to attend? To suggest it to young people who never knew it? And what if the more bold among them were to hope that it would once again be the “Ordinary Form” of the Mass?

Would it be a worthy attitude if someone lived in a place that only had the TLM and said “I only tolerate this Mass because the Novus Ordo is not near me”? Or receive on the tongue grudgingly because they are deprived of the ability to enthrone the Body of Christ in their reverently outstretched palm? Or have inward sorrow because they cannot “pass the peace” lovingly to their neighbor, and instead have to be content with the priest’s “pax vobiscum”? Would you tell that person that they “perhaps aren’t in the right disposition to receive this Thanksgiving gift”?

As you can see, it cuts both ways.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Let’s suppose, and this probably will never happen, but let’s suppose that the next Pope declares that the vernacular Novus Ordo was a failed experiment — he would be within his rights, after all, he’s the Pope! — and liturgically turns the clock back to 1962.

I’ve said this numerous times before. If the next Pope does that, I would and I would encourage the young and new Catholics to be guided by the Pope as he is protected by the Holy Spirit from leading us astray in matters of faith and morals. As Catholics that distinguishes us from others. We have a faith in the Church that can never fail. The theologians, philosophers and the college of Bishops can work on matters with their appropriate expertise, but us ordinary lay Catholics are free to be carried along by the Magisterium without fearing doom and disaster.

 

[ThomasMT]

I would say to my daughter, darling perhaps you aren’t in the right disposition to receive this Thanksgiving gift.

Or perhaps, just perhaps you could take pause and reflect on her perspective with the same tolerance and open mindedness with which I have little doubt that you strive to raise her

Otherwise, she just might surprise you by responding," perhaps you are right, mom. Perhaps we have grown so focused on lining up every single time, that we forget it is more important to more frequently renew our state of grace with greater attendance at confession. After all, Holy Communion is not “all about me.”

 

[Maximian]

Sometimes it is possible to say something that is true but nonetheless wrong.

If I call God “the Great Architect of the Universe” or “the Higher Power” I am not saying something untrue but if I always call him that I give a false impression about Him.

This is the problem with politically correct formulae of the kind mentioned by the OP. Even if not strictly incorrect, they are definitely misleading.