Catholic School vs Public School

[robwar]

I think it is kinda sad that a number of the posts have made rather general or blanket statements about Catholic Schools that accuse schools of hypocrisy. There is no perfectly run school anywhere. Catholic schools do struggle and are in transition. If someone wants to blame Catholic schools for leaving the faith is really shallow reasoning. Parents are the first teachers of the faith, Catholic schools should only reinforce this and are not the substitute parent or teacher of the faith. If someone no longer is Catholic, it goes much deeper that lets blame Catholic schools for the reason because Catholic schools are just a bunch of hypocrites. Most of this seems to be directed to HS but of the HS we’ve looked at and send our boys to, I’ve found the smaller co-ed ones to be very friendly and down to earth as in contrast to single-sex HS. Catholic schools use the same books that catechism uses so for those complaining about orthodoxy should also look at what material is being used by their own parish in catechism classes. It is easy to throw rocks at something you are not involved with or have not or never been involved with. While yes and sadly many times Catholic schools have become elitist catering to the best and brightest to make blanket statements that all is bad is not fair to the many that work, teach and send their children to Catholic schools.

 

[wendy_w]

We have sent 3 kids to Catholic School and it was worth the sacifice in my opinion.
They went though 8th grade as we do not have a Catholic high School. Research your Catholic School, we are lucky and have a very good one that teaches soild Catholic teachings. Good luck as you make your decision.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think it is kinda sad that a number of the posts have made rather general or blanket statements about Catholic Schools that accuse schools of hypocrisy. There is no perfectly run school anywhere. Catholic schools do struggle and are in transition. If someone wants to blame Catholic schools for leaving the faith is really shallow reasoning. Parents are the first teachers of the faith, Catholic schools should only reinforce this and are not the substitute parent or teacher of the faith. If someone no longer is Catholic, it goes much deeper that lets blame Catholic schools for the reason because Catholic schools are just a bunch of hypocrites. Most of this seems to be directed to HS but of the HS we’ve looked at and send our boys to, I’ve found the smaller co-ed ones to be very friendly and down to earth as in contrast to single-sex HS. Catholic schools use the same books that catechism uses so for those complaining about orthodoxy should also look at what material is being used by their own parish in catechism classes. It is easy to throw rocks at something you are not involved with or have not or never been involved with. While yes and sadly many times Catholic schools have become elitist catering to the best and brightest to make blanket statements that all is bad is not fair to the many that work, teach and send their children to Catholic schools.

I’m hoping you write that from a school that gets criticism it does not deserve (which most do), and that you are not aware of how bad the ones that deserve criticism can get.

Sadly, there are parents who have been “involved with” the scandalous situations at their parish school to the point of leaving in tears. This is not about catering to the “best and the brightest”. Everybody wants academic excellence and no one is putting that down! The problem is catering to a denominator that is so low that it is in opposition to any traditional observance of the faith. People withdraw their children from parish schools because their children’s faith, morals, or well-being are under attack, yes! We are talking about situations where the teachers teach “well, the Church says this, but the truth is that” or who do not even teach the concept of sin beyond the desire to not hurt anyone else’s feelings, not to mention those other ones who tolerate bullying going on right under their noses!

It is impossible for a school to be run perfectly, but it is perfectly possible for a school to decide whether or not it is going to be obedient to what the Church teaches, whether or not it is going to attempt to make the life of the Church available to the student body, and whether or not it is going to insist that every student be safe and treated with respect. Also, you and I both know that the quality of instruction cannot be gauged by the textbooks that are chosen. To imply that programs using the same book are the same wasn’t even slightly fair to the schools that take the trouble to teach well.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

I think it is kinda sad that a number of the posts have made rather general or blanket statements about Catholic Schools that accuse schools of hypocrisy. There is no perfectly run school anywhere. Catholic schools do struggle and are in transition. If someone wants to blame Catholic schools for leaving the faith is really shallow reasoning. Parents are the first teachers of the faith, Catholic schools should only reinforce this and are not the substitute parent or teacher of the faith. If someone no longer is Catholic, it goes much deeper that lets blame Catholic schools for the reason because Catholic schools are just a bunch of hypocrites. Most of this seems to be directed to HS but of the HS we’ve looked at and send our boys to, I’ve found the smaller co-ed ones to be very friendly and down to earth as in contrast to single-sex HS. Catholic schools use the same books that catechism uses so for those complaining about orthodoxy should also look at what material is being used by their own parish in catechism classes. It is easy to throw rocks at something you are not involved with or have not or never been involved with. While yes and sadly many times Catholic schools have become elitist catering to the best and brightest to make blanket statements that all is bad is not fair to the many that work, teach and send their children to Catholic schools.

I don’t think they were generalized statements…each one was based upon personal experience. There are some great Catholic grade schools (and a few that are very snobbish) in my city but the 2 high schools are another matter entirely. However to get your child to one of the better schools you might have to drive all the way across town which might not be feasible. Our Catholic schools don’t have a busing system. The fact is that it is hypocrisy to preach the Catholic faith and then go around and do the opposite and act like it’s ok. I witnessed it first hand among the kids in my classes. And unfortunately it is true that alot of parents send their kids to Catholic schools b/c they don’t have alot of help with the faith at home (my mom was one to do this…my dad is SDA and was against raising us Catholic.)

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

I don’t think they were generalized statements…each one was based upon personal experience. There are some great Catholic grade schools (and a few that are very snobbish) in my city but the 2 high schools are another matter entirely. However to get your child to one of the better schools you might have to drive all the way across town which might not be feasible. Our Catholic schools don’t have a busing system. The fact is that it is hypocrisy to preach the Catholic faith and then go around and do the opposite and act like it’s ok. I witnessed it first hand among the kids in my classes. And unfortunately it is true that alot of parents send their kids to Catholic schools b/c they don’t have alot of help with the faith at home (my mom was one to do this…my dad is SDA and was against raising us Catholic.)

ETA: I also want to echo what a previous poster said about it being harder to be more traditional in most grade schools. Around here things are pretty liberal liturgically speaking…and it gets worse as you get older and move onto the high schools. There is 1 grade school in my area that is more traditional…the priest even says the Latin Mass for the kids so that they can experience it.

 

[gardenswithkids]

This is what canon law says (among other things):

Can. 798 Parents are to entrust their children to those schools which provide a Catholic education. If they are unable to do this, they are obliged to take care that suitable Catholic education is provided for their children outside the schools.

and also

Can. 803 §1. A Catholic school is understood as one which a competent ecclesiastical authority or a public ecclesiastical juridic person directs or which ecclesiastical authority recognizes as such through a written document.

§2. The instruction and education in a Catholic school must be grounded in the principles of Catholic doctrine; teachers are to be outstanding in correct doctrine and integrity of life.

§3. Even if it is in fact Catholic, no school is to bear the name Catholic school without the consent of competent ecclesiastical authority.

If you are unable, you are unable; you do not need to impoverish your family to make tuition to a school that is beyond your means. If the Catholic schools available to you are affordable but, unfortunately are not only but nominally Catholic but in fact pose a danger of undermining your child’s formation as a Catholic, then it would be fair to conclude that those schools, in spite of their stated reason for existence, do not “provide a Catholic education”, and therefore must, in good conscience, be avoided.

If a Catholic school is available to which you cannot object to on the terms above, then as canon law reads, you ought to send your children there. What “object to on those terms” means is something for the parents to discern, however. I am not proposing to be an expert on where the boundaries are, only to point out that the boundaries are there in canon law to be taken into account: vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2N.HTM

PS Homeschooling, if done according to the directions of the parents’ bishop, would qualify as a Catholic school. If the bishop says, “this is a Catholic school”, then it is a Catholic school, even if school is conducted at the parents’ kitchen table. The parents do have a responsibility to ensure that the education they are providing at home has the consent of the competent ecclesiastical authority, however.

Thank you. I don’t remember ever reading or even hearing of canon laws on this topic.

 

[ExGratia]

One thing no one has mentioned is that Catholic schools are state schools. The books (except for religion) are the same. And many well-meaning-but-ill-informed teachers work there. In my own time teaching catechism, I’ve become aware that if something is in a book read/written by an “authority”, then children will believe it. And many do not outgrow this habit…and some of those people become Catholic school teachers.

History books tend to be the most problematic, with American Revisionist history dominating. Certain science and health books can have issues, too (I actually had Catholic grade school teachers who taught by the book evolution theory as fact. So, unless you are homeschooling, you will need to be hyper-vigilant about keeping up on what your kids are learning. Even if the school is orthodox, precocious children read ahead and will need guidance. Please remember that a mission statement or a good principal does not mean that your kids aren’t being taught something incorrectly, often because of the ignorance of the teachers (not all teachers see teaching as a vocation and they have varying intelligence/skills), not any kind of intentional disobedience to the Magisterium on their part.

This isn’t to say that Catholic schools are bad. I am of the opinion that they are a superior choice to public school for most people, and I attended one for k-12. But never forget that YOU are the primary educators of your children. God bless you and your family!

 

[benjohnson]

Then there is also the case where a Catholic school isn’t that great in teaching of the faith

I urge parents to consider their Catholic parish school prayerfully and if prudent, make the joyous sacrifice to give their children not only the gift of a good education, but the chance to have a life of faith.

However…

There’s a lot of beautiful Catholic children in our Lutheran LCMS school, simply because the local parish school doesn’t build faith and minds as well as it should. Our Lutheran school takes it’s responsibility deadly seriously, and those Catholic children will find their faith strengthened, as much as can be done, by us Lutherans.

For some Catholic parents, a Lutheran LCMS school may be a good alternative. If parents decide to go explore this route, some important questions have answers to are:

1. Is there already a significant amount of Catholic children in the school?
2. Will the schools respect the Catholic Church’s teaching for those Catholic children?
3. Will the children grow in faith of our risen Lord, and have respect for the authority of the Church?
4. Will the child not only grow in his heart-felt faith, but be given the tools to defend their intellectual faith?
5. If a distinctive Lutheran teaching is taught, will the Catholic Children be given instruction that what they are hearing is the Lutheran perspective?

Frankly, the LCMS school that my son is a blessing from God. I pray that all our Christian schools raise our children in faith as an oasis from the secular world.

 

[Allegra]

I urge parents to consider their Catholic parish school prayerfully and if prudent, make the joyous sacrifice to give their children not only the gift of a good education, but the chance to have a life of faith.

However…

There’s a lot of beautiful Catholic children in our Lutheran LCMS school, simply because the local parish school doesn’t build faith and minds as well as it should. Our Lutheran school takes it’s responsibility deadly seriously, and those Catholic children will find their faith strengthened, as much as can be done, by us Lutherans.

For some Catholic parents, a Lutheran LCMS school may be a good alternative. If parents decide to go explore this route, some important questions have answers to are:

1. Is there already a significant amount of Catholic children in the school?
2. Will the schools respect the Catholic Church’s teaching for those Catholic children?
3. Will the children grow in faith of our risen Lord, and have respect for the authority of the Church?
4. Will the child not only grow in his heart-felt faith, but be given the tools to defend their intellectual faith?
5. If a distinctive Lutheran teaching is taught, will the Catholic Children be given instruction that what they are hearing is the Lutheran perspective?

Frankly, the LCMS school that my son is a blessing from God. I pray that all our Christian schools raise our children in faith as an oasis from the secular world.

I can think of nothing more confusing for a child. I would have to be in pretty dire straights before I would even consider this as a viable option. I can live with a school teaching my kid the “lattice method” of multiplication, having no decent literature to chose from in the library, playing along with the “American Revolutionist” slant on history, and even explaining how to use devices and substances in health class that I expect and pray he or she will never use. But of all subject matters, our faith is the one that “close enough” just doesn’t cut it. I’ll take the public school and PSR option. If things get so bad that those are unacceptable, I’ll teach them at home.

 

[Z1Z2]

We sent DD to Catholic school for 2 years of preschool and then Kindergarten. We switched to the public school after that. We felt the academics were as good at the public school and we didn’t have to pay only to be condescended to, as was the case at the Catholic school. It was like trying to get into “the” clique, hoping the cool kids would notice me, when we were at the Catholic school. The public school has been much more welcoming. Even someone who still sends her boy to the Catholic school commented to me how some of the other Catholic school parents thought they were all that and a bag of chips because they’re willing to write a check for their kids’ education. Honestly, the longer we were there, the less we liked Catholics - and both DH and I are cradle Catholics. I did 12 years of Catholic school myself, so I had no inherent wariness of that system before DD started. Now I do. There is no universal answer, where one way is always right. Some public schools are great, some aren’t; some Catholic schools are great, some aren’t (and I am not just talking about the academics). You’ll have have to investigate the individual schools involved.

 

[EasterJoy]

We sent DD to Catholic school for 2 years of preschool and then Kindergarten. We switched to the public school after that. We felt the academics were as good at the public school and we didn’t have to pay only to be condescended to, as was the case at the Catholic school. It was like trying to get into “the” clique, hoping the cool kids would notice me, when we were at the Catholic school. The public school has been much more welcoming. Even someone who still sends her boy to the Catholic school commented to me how some of the other Catholic school parents thought they were all that and a bag of chips because they’re willing to write a check for their kids’ education. Honestly, the longer we were there, the less we liked Catholics - and both DH and I are cradle Catholics. I did 12 years of Catholic school myself, so I had no inherent wariness of that system before DD started. Now I do. There is no universal answer, where one way is always right. Some public schools are great, some aren’t; some Catholic schools are great, some aren’t (and I am not just talking about the academics). You’ll have have to investigate the individual schools involved.

A church is only a hospital for sinners if the lunatics aren’t running the asylum. The same goes for a Catholic school.

 

[robwar]

I urge parents to consider their Catholic parish school prayerfully and if prudent, make the joyous sacrifice to give their children not only the gift of a good education, but the chance to have a life of faith.

However…

There’s a lot of beautiful Catholic children in our Lutheran LCMS school, simply because the local parish school doesn’t build faith and minds as well as it should. Our Lutheran school takes it’s responsibility deadly seriously, and those Catholic children will find their faith strengthened, as much as can be done, by us Lutherans.

For some Catholic parents, a Lutheran LCMS school may be a good alternative. If parents decide to go explore this route, some important questions have answers to are:

1. Is there already a significant amount of Catholic children in the school?
2. Will the schools respect the Catholic Church’s teaching for those Catholic children?
3. Will the children grow in faith of our risen Lord, and have respect for the authority of the Church?
4. Will the child not only grow in his heart-felt faith, but be given the tools to defend their intellectual faith?
5. If a distinctive Lutheran teaching is taught, will the Catholic Children be given instruction that what they are hearing is the Lutheran perspective?

Frankly, the LCMS school that my son is a blessing from God. I pray that all our Christian schools raise our children in faith as an oasis from the secular world.

A very interesting comment. I’ve known a number of families that sent there children to the single sex Catholic HS only to remove them due to a number of factors and then send them to the Lutheran HS. About 30% of the student body at this particular HS are actually Catholic students. It seems kinda sad to think that people complain about Catholic schools not being orthodox enough but willing to send their children to either public (where there is certainly no orthodoxy) or Lutheran schools. I believe that religion is required as in the Catholic HS for all four years, I am not sure what kind of Catholic orthodoxy will be taught in a Lutheran school. I don’t want you to think I am against Lutheran schools at all, because I’m not but HS religion classes do delve into more theology and morality so I’m not sure what the thinking is on the part of the families I’ve known to do this. For the most part, most of these families don’t want to send their children to public or single sex Catholic HS for the problems there so they end up in the Lutheran HS as the alternative.
The Lutheran school are just as good as Catholic but I think if you want Orthodoxy of faith, I think this is confusing thing to do.

 

[robwar]

We sent DD to Catholic school for 2 years of preschool and then Kindergarten. We switched to the public school after that. We felt the academics were as good at the public school and we didn’t have to pay only to be condescended to, as was the case at the Catholic school. It was like trying to get into “the” clique, hoping the cool kids would notice me, when we were at the Catholic school. The public school has been much more welcoming. Even someone who still sends her boy to the Catholic school commented to me how some of the other Catholic school parents thought they were all that and a bag of chips because they’re willing to write a check for their kids’ education. Honestly, the longer we were there, the less we liked Catholics - and both DH and I are cradle Catholics. I did 12 years of Catholic school myself, so I had no inherent wariness of that system before DD started. Now I do. There is no universal answer, where one way is always right. Some public schools are great, some aren’t; some Catholic schools are great, some aren’t (and I am not just talking about the academics). You’ll have have to investigate the individual schools involved.

Just an observation about what you posted. I am not sure at the preschool/K level children worried or being worried about getting into cliques. Usually that sort of thing comes later in school life. Are the cliques something you observed as a parent of the other parents in that particular class? Cliques can exist in any type of school and do. Sometimes as a new parent without older children in a school, one observes in the other parents of children in the class talking and doing things together because they may have already formed friendships and a common bond with the older children they have. Sometimes these parents forget that there are new parents there and forget to include them in the yak and gab and planned activities. Is this what you observed and reacted too? This can happen at any school public or private or otherwise. Just curious.

 

[EasterJoy]

… I believe that religion is required as in the Catholic HS for all four years, I am not sure what kind of Catholic orthodoxy will be taught in a Lutheran school. I don’t want you to think I am against Lutheran schools at all, because I’m not but HS religion classes do delve into more theology and morality so I’m not sure what the thinking is on the part of the families I’ve known to do this…

The complaint I have heard from Catholic prep school students is this: Our regular coursework prepares us for college-level and sees us as capable of it, but our religion classes are such a joke, they may as well be taught out of a comic book, for how rigorous they are.

The worst of it is that these classes are not always orthodox, either. The schools wouldn’t have an incompetent math teacher, they surely wouldn’t keep incompetent coaches, but they hire incompetent or (more commonly) unorthodox religion teachers.

When you go to a Lutheran high school and they teach you Lutheran theology, there is not nearly the scandal as when you go to Catholic high school and they teach stuff that the Lutherans wouldn’t even sit still for.

 

[robwar]

The complaint I have heard from Catholic prep school students is this: Our regular coursework prepares us for college-level and sees us as capable of it, but our religion classes are such a joke, they may as well be taught out of a comic book, for how rigorous they are.

The worst of it is that these classes are not always orthodox, either. The schools wouldn’t have an incompetent math teacher, they surely wouldn’t keep incompetent coaches, but they hire incompetent or (more commonly) unorthodox religion teachers.

When you go to a Lutheran high school and they teach you Lutheran theology, there is not nearly the scandal as when you go to Catholic high school and they teach stuff that the Lutherans wouldn’t even sit still for.

an interesting post coming from someone that quotes cannon law telling Catholic parents to send their children to Catholic schools. I am not sure what is meant by “joke”. Too easy, Too basic, not challenging in faith or morals? That means different things to different people. Does that mean the class is a joke because it wasn’t academically hard enough?
Did you review yourself the material that the students used, the course of study? Did the teachers have a background in teaching theology? Have you experienced this first with your own children or is this just second hand info from others? Have you ever contacted the schools with your observation of what their former students say about their religion courses to try and correct the problems you seem to think that you are running into based on second hand info.

 

[EasterJoy]

an interesting post coming from someone that quotes cannon law telling Catholic parents to send their children to Catholic schools. I am not sure what is meant by “joke”. Too easy, Too basic, not challenging in faith or morals? That means different things to different people. Does that mean the class is a joke because it wasn’t academically hard enough?

Did you review yourself the material that the students used, the course of study? Did the teachers have a background in teaching theology? Have you experienced this first with your own children or is this just second hand info from others? Have you ever contacted the schools with your observation of what their former students say about their religion courses to try and correct the problems you seem to think that you are running into based on second hand info.

Are you kidding me? Why are you being so contentious? I’m surprised you didn’t ask me if I had sat in on the classes there for a week and inspected the exam files, instead of taking the word of a high school student that he knows when a course is rigorous and when it isn’t. When a student comes home, says that in a class discussion of assisted suicide he was the only one who thought it was immoral and that the teacher made no comment on the Church’s stance in order to correct those who were mistaken, should I not believe that happened? I’m not naming names, here. I’m saying I have probable cause to believe an investigation is in order when a parent is making these decisions. Why does that make you so nervous? The good Catholic schools don’t fear that kind of scrutiny.

We send our kids to Catholic grade school and we intend to send them to a Catholic high school. My point is that you cannot see “Catholic” on the letterhead and assume that the school is orthodox. The parent is bound to be diligent, because these problems are not as rare as they ought to be. You certainly can’t know how the faith is being lived at that school unless you look into it.

You see, I went to a “public” school at which 95% of the student were Catholics who went to Mass before school started every day. There was confession scheduled after school for us on a regular basis. We were taught by parish catechists (the parish was next door) out of the Baltimore Catechism, and by the pastor. When we went to the Catholic high school, we knew the facts of the faith, by memory. Our classmates who had gone to the Catholic grade school did not. They just didn’t. We were shocked by how little they knew, to be blunt. They had not been to Mass as often as we had, they didn’t know as much about the faith, and to be frank, compared to us they had pretty much gotten the glue-God-loves-you-on-felt version of the faith. They didn’t even know when the holy days were. The proportion of Catholics to non-Catholics at our school probably wasn’t a bit different than theirs.

So: Should my parents have made the sacrifice to truck me over to the parish in the nearby town that had a Catholic elementary school, because their own parish “only” had a catechism system to offer, built around the public school with a disproportionately Catholic student body? I don’t think so.

If your point is that the Catholic school gets the benefit of the doubt over the public school until a diligent investigation says otherwise, well yes, of course. That is a point worth making. The proof does not have to be as it would for a criminal case, though. Parents do not always have access to that kind of information, and they have to do the best they can with the information they can get.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Thanks again for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. I mentioned to my 4 year old that he might attend the local school with the neighborhood kids which brought forth this shocked reaction, “There isn’t a church there. I don’t think its even a Catholic school.”

 

[benjohnson]

. I believe that religion is required as in the Catholic HS for all four years, I am not sure what kind of Catholic orthodoxy will be taught in a Lutheran school…

Here in Seattle - at this time, there’s some really bad parochial schools. So it’s not like the parents want to send their children to the LCMS school, but it’s perhaps their only choice they can make in good conscious if they can’t home school.

Secondly, the LCMS school that I’m refereing to is very good, and if they teach something contrary to Catholic teaching, they remind the Catholic students of what teaching they should follow. That said, there should be very very little between what the LCMS teaches and what the Catholic church teaches. The issue doesn’t come up much.

The proof is that the Catholic children that come out of this school are great Catholics - they know their faith, they know how their faith differs from Lutherans, they’re very moral and hard working, and they are on fire for God and their church. At least in this LCMS school, there’s no sheep stealing going on.

Of course, I’m not saying all LCMS schools are like - I’m sure there’s some horrid ones out there!

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks again for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. I mentioned to my 4 year old that he might attend the local school with the neighborhood kids which brought forth this shocked reaction, “There isn’t a church there. I don’t think its even a Catholic school.”

Spoken like a child who appreciates the difference.

Talk to your pastor about what accommodation can be made when you have three kids to put into the parish school. Very often they can work something out.

 

[Allegra]

The complaint I have heard from Catholic prep school students is this: Our regular coursework prepares us for college-level and sees us as capable of it, but our religion classes are such a joke, they may as well be taught out of a comic book, for how rigorous they are.

The worst of it is that these classes are not always orthodox, either. The schools wouldn’t have an incompetent math teacher, they surely wouldn’t keep incompetent coaches, but they hire incompetent or (more commonly) unorthodox religion teachers.

When you go to a Lutheran high school and they teach you Lutheran theology, there is not nearly the scandal as when you go to Catholic high school and they teach stuff that the Lutherans wouldn’t even sit still for.

My three oldest siblings tried out three different Catholic high schools. Two of them only required one religion class and the grade was based on attendance and a journal that was kept in class and filled out after spending the class having a open-door-no-wrong-answer-Platonic-discussion regarding how the students felt about church teaching. My brother’s school had a required religion class every year, but he always thought they were an “easy A” with the exception of Church History, which was a little more structured and more challenging. I think that most people in my area send kids to these schools because of social status and the alleged assurance that they will get into a “good college”. Lots of parents seem to take the line of thought that religion classes aren’t important in high school, since the kids have already been confirmed.