Catholic School vs Public School

[EasterJoy]

My three oldest siblings tried out three different Catholic high schools. Two of them only required one religion class and the grade was based on attendance and a journal that was kept in class and filled out after spending the class having a open-door-no-wrong-answer-Platonic-discussion regarding how the students felt about church teaching. My brother’s school had a required religion class every year, but he always thought they were an “easy A” with the exception of Church History, which was a little more structured and more challenging. I think that most people in my area send kids to these schools because of social status and the alleged assurance that they will get into a “good college”. Lots of parents seem to take the line of thought that religion classes aren’t important in high school, since the kids have already been confirmed.

Let us say this was in contrast to my high school. The religion classes, which were required every term for every grade level, were just as hard as the other classes that we all had to take. Not as hard as the advanced classes that only a limited number of the students would take, but they still took work. When we were done, we’d learned something. As you say, though…I think if the religion classes at that high school were lacking in academic content, then there would have been an uproar from the parents.

Once again: Parents make the school, and the exception proves the rule.

 

[Z1Z2]

The PARENTS at the Catholic school we attended for 3 years were the ones who had their own clique and DH and I were not welcome. There were of course individuals here and there who were nice to us, but they were the exception.

JThis can happen at any school public or private or otherwise. Just curious.

My point exactly. Not all schools are created equal. I threw out our experience as a counterpoint to those here who automatically say “Catholic school = good values, public school = evil values.” We have thus far found equivalent or better values in the public school. Of course not all Catholic schools are bad. However, there is no guarantee it’s good, either, just because the name starts with “Saint”. That is why I told the OP he needs to investigate the individual schools involved before making his decision.

 

[robwar]

Here in Seattle - at this time, there’s some really bad parochial schools. So it’s not like the parents want to send their children to the LCMS school, but it’s perhaps their only choice they can make in good conscious if they can’t home school.

Secondly, the LCMS school that I’m refereing to is very good, and if they teach something contrary to Catholic teaching, they remind the Catholic students of what teaching they should follow. That said, there should be very very little between what the LCMS teaches and what the Catholic church teaches. The issue doesn’t come up much.

The proof is that the Catholic children that come out of this school are great Catholics - they know their faith, they know how their faith differs from Lutherans, they’re very moral and hard working, and they are on fire for God and their church. At least in this LCMS school, there’s no sheep stealing going on.

Of course, I’m not saying all LCMS schools are like - I’m sure there’s some horrid ones out there!

That’s interesting and actually some smart thinking on who is running the LCMS schools there. The are looking beyond their Lutheran base to be open to having Catholics attend.
Schools need to operate and be financially sound with a certain number or base but very sad on the part of the Catholic schools and who is running them there. If someone on the Catholic side woke up and say “wow, too many Catholic are going over to the Lutheran schools, we need to improve ourselves to keep them home” that would be amazing.

 

[7armyrugrats]

Just an observation about what you posted. I am not sure at the preschool/K level children worried or being worried about getting into cliques. Usually that sort of thing comes later in school life. Are the cliques something you observed as a parent of the other parents in that particular class? Cliques can exist in any type of school and do. Sometimes as a new parent without older children in a school, one observes in the other parents of children in the class talking and doing things together because they may have already formed friendships and a common bond with the older children they have. Sometimes these parents forget that there are new parents there and forget to include them in the yak and gab and planned activities. Is this what you observed and reacted too? This can happen at any school public or private or otherwise. Just curious.

Actually, cliques can and do start in Pre-k and kindergarten classrooms, and intensify as the kids grow older. They happen outside of school on playgrounds and in neighborhoods as well as in any type of school. Its especially bad with little girls, but boys have cliques, too. Of course not all children are in cliques, but not all adults are either. It’s just one of those unfortunate parts of life we need to teach our kids to deal with.

 

[robwar]

Are you kidding me? Why are you being so contentious? I’m surprised you didn’t ask me if I had sat in on the classes there for a week and inspected the exam files, instead of taking the word of a high school student that he knows when a course is rigorous and when it isn’t. When a student comes home, says that in a class discussion of assisted suicide he was the only one who thought it was immoral and that the teacher made no comment on the Church’s stance in order to correct those who were mistaken, should I not believe that happened? I’m not naming names, here. I’m saying I have probable cause to believe an investigation is in order when a parent is making these decisions. Why does that make you so nervous? The good Catholic schools don’t fear that kind of scrutiny.

We send our kids to Catholic grade school and we intend to send them to a Catholic high school. My point is that you cannot see “Catholic” on the letterhead and assume that the school is orthodox. The parent is bound to be diligent, because these problems are not as rare as they ought to be. You certainly can’t know how the faith is being lived at that school unless you look into it.

You see, I went to a “public” school at which 95% of the student were Catholics who went to Mass before school started every day. There was confession scheduled after school for us on a regular basis. We were taught by parish catechists (the parish was next door) out of the Baltimore Catechism, and by the pastor. When we went to the Catholic high school, we knew the facts of the faith, by memory. Our classmates who had gone to the Catholic grade school did not. They just didn’t. We were shocked by how little they knew, to be blunt. They had not been to Mass as often as we had, they didn’t know as much about the faith, and to be frank, compared to us they had pretty much gotten the glue-God-loves-you-on-felt version of the faith. They didn’t even know when the holy days were. The proportion of Catholics to non-Catholics at our school probably wasn’t a bit different than theirs.

So: Should my parents have made the sacrifice to truck me over to the parish in the nearby town that had a Catholic elementary school, because their own parish “only” had a catechism system to offer, built around the public school with a disproportionately Catholic student body? I don’t think so.

If your point is that the Catholic school gets the benefit of the doubt over the public school until a diligent investigation says otherwise, well yes, of course. That is a point worth making. The proof does not have to be as it would for a criminal case, though. Parents do not always have access to that kind of information, and they have to do the best they can with the information they can get.

I wanted to answer in that I was not trying to be contentious but maybe just challenging in questions. It is easy to say that the HS religion courses are milk toast or jokes and for the kids you are run into that maybe true. But I am sure as part of attending a Catholic HS, they had other religious happenings that are outside their religions classes. I am sure they went to Mass, hopefully at least once a week if not more. I am sure they started the day and ended it with prayer. I am sure that there was some kind of prayer list or request list at the school. I am pretty sure that (at least now most Catholic schools are emphasizing this)
some kind of service or volunteer hours or works of mercy that the students do to show faith in action. I hope that the student body was taken to confession during the Easter and Christmas season, I am sure they attended Mass on Holy days of obligation. Maybe their religion classes were an easy A but at least they had something in the HS years as opposed nothing at all if they attended a public school. There are no religion classes at all for HS students at the parish level. It seems like religious education end with confirmation and nothing more is done for HS students at that age and beyond. Do HS religion classes need to be “tough” as math and science to be effective? There is just more that goes on in a religious HS than what is taught in a religion class. It’s a bigger picture than how hard or demanding the religion class was. If these kids thought their religion classes were jokes, they probably got that from the home life which treated faith as a joke and used the Catholic HS for the academics which is what you are observing. ( or used the Catholic HS for the sports, something not even touched on this thread).

 

[robwar]

Actually, cliques can and do start in Pre-k and kindergarten classrooms, and intensify as the kids grow older. They happen outside of school on playgrounds and in neighborhoods as well as in any type of school. Its especially bad with little girls, but boys have cliques, too. Of course not all children are in cliques, but not all adults are either. It’s just one of those unfortunate parts of life we need to teach our kids to deal with.

I understand, but is boils down to the parents and the parents getting together with older sibs and the younger ones in toe and playing together. Everyone then becomes buddies and then it builds. A preschooler or K aged child doesn’t drive themselves to their friends homes, but parents getting together to have their kids all play together. You see this at these ages because of the half day with preschool and K (although K should be all day). If one is new to the school and your child is in a class with a bunch of children that have older sibs that have already established friendships, you have to try to connect with the other newer parents.
Alot of this stuff disappears as the kids go through the years and met and begin to do school things with others in their class.

 

[PaulinVA]

Actually, cliques can and do start in Pre-k and kindergarten classrooms, and intensify as the kids grow older. They happen outside of school on playgrounds and in neighborhoods as well as in any type of school. Its especially bad with little girls, but boys have cliques, too. Of course not all children are in cliques, but not all adults are either. It’s just one of those unfortunate parts of life we need to teach our kids to deal with.

Why are groups of friends wrong? In Church we call them small groups or small communities.

 

[KellyPalmer]

I understand, but is boils down to the parents and the parents getting together with older sibs and the younger ones in toe and playing together. Everyone then becomes buddies and then it builds. A preschooler or K aged child doesn’t drive themselves to their friends homes, but parents getting together to have their kids all play together. You see this at these ages because of the half day with preschool and K (although K should be all day). If one is new to the school and your child is in a class with a bunch of children that have older sibs that have already established friendships, you have to try to connect with the other newer parents.
Alot of this stuff disappears as the kids go through the years and met and begin to do school things with others in their class.

IME, it actually intensifies as the kids go through the years at school. It’s great to bring the older siblings along with the Pre-K but that won’t work b/c the older kids are in school all day. After school, there’s homework and then structured activities. Even if your kids aren’t in basketball, dance, etc, the other kids are. Often it’s after school daycare as well. Or in my neighborhood, the latchkey kids are instructed not to open the door or answer the phone.

I toured our only Catholic school the other day and they have an awesome set up very similar to what you describe the parents do. But this is happening all day while the kids are in school. The older kids are grouped with younger kids and everyone is in a “family”. They walk each other to their classes and eat lunch with them, etc. I’ve never seen anything like that in our public schools and I thought it was really awesome.

 

[KellyPalmer]

Why are groups of friends wrong? In Church we call them small groups or small communities.

Small groups of friends aren’t wrong. But cliques in childhood can easily become problematic especially when they exclude others. Watching my 9 year old cry himself to sleep the last 2 nights made that quite apparent.

 

[7armyrugrats]

Why are groups of friends wrong? In Church we call them small groups or small communities.

Groups of friends are not bad. The problem with cliques are that they become very exclusive and often times will bully other kids that are not in the clique. I am all for friendships and close circles of friends. Cliques tend to cross the line and become “clubs” that you have to be a certain way or you aren’t “one of them.” then the kids, and often parents as well, avoid contact with those who aren’t in the clique. Instead of being open to new friendships or accepting of other people who different than themselves, they become closed off, judgmental, unwilling and eventually unable to relate to anyone they deem “different.” I’m not saying there is a written list if rules, rather it is more of a follow the leader type of rules, or as my mom calls it, monkey see monkey do mentality. One clique will not like anyone who’s parents both work, or who isn’t as financially set as the rest, or who is overweight, or a different race. It could be the ones that don’t like the popular kids, or the athletes that only associate with the popular kids. There are many kids who are able to be both popular and NOT be in a clique, and it is also possible for unpopular kids to form there own clique. As adults we see it where moms only associate with other moms who parent with the same philosophies instead of seeing that sometimes we learn tge most by stepping outside our “inner circle” and experiencing new ideas. We also see
men that only associate with other men who have the same profession. It makes sense that our CLOSEST friends would share the most similarities with us, but if we are exclusive and judgmental tge way cliques become, it is harmful to all involved.

 

[robwar]

IME, it actually intensifies as the kids go through the years at school. It’s great to bring the older siblings along with the Pre-K but that won’t work b/c the older kids are in school all day. After school, there’s homework and then structured activities. Even if your kids aren’t in basketball, dance, etc, the other kids are. Often it’s after school daycare as well. Or in my neighborhood, the latchkey kids are instructed not to open the door or answer the phone.

I toured our only Catholic school the other day and they have an awesome set up very similar to what you describe the parents do. But this is happening all day while the kids are in school. The older kids are grouped with younger kids and everyone is in a “family”. They walk each other to their classes and eat lunch with them, etc. I’ve never seen anything like that in our public schools and I thought it was really awesome.

I am sorry about your son. I think what I meant and have seen with 3 kids is this. mom A, B and C have 3 kids started out together in preschool. they get together for lunch and make play dates with the 3 (same sex). Likewise mom A, B and C also have at the same age younger sibs 2-3 years behind each also are included in the get togethers with the older sibs. Now the older sibs are in 1st grade and the younger sibs are starting out preschool and already know each other and have already gotten together and played together so even though there is nothing wrong with any of the above, it looks like a clique. You are mom D with your oldest in preschool starting out. You see mom A, B and C talking about 1st grade stuff, still getting together with the 2nd group of sibs and feel maybe left out. Mom A, B and C forget to try and include you as mom D. The best thing for you to do to feel included is look for mom E, F and G and get together with other newbie moms and do things together. As you get to know other moms and do things together. Stepping back and understanding this, reaching out to other new parents goes a long way in helping yourself and your children to “feel apart” of the school. Then you avoid what one poster did was get mad about “cliques” and leave the school at the early stages.
You have to step back, take a long view of school life with your children and realize that you are hopefully in for the long term if it is a Catholic elementary k-8 and focus that you are there for the education of your children and while it is nice to become friends and buddies with other parents that is not the most important thing and the not bottom line.

 

[Z1Z2]

Then you avoid what one poster did was get mad about “cliques” and leave the school at the early stages.
You have to step back, take a long view of school life with your children and realize that you are hopefully in for the long term if it is a Catholic elementary k-8 and focus that you are there for the education of your children and while it is nice to become friends and buddies with other parents that is not the most important thing and the not bottom line.

\

You missed my point completely. We didn’t leave because our feelings were hurt (although they were). Furerthermore, why are you absolving the “old-timers” of their responsibilities to be welcoming? What kind of values are they portraying? What kind of message are parents who think they’re better than other people passing on to their kids?

 

[robwar]

\

You missed my point completely. We didn’t leave because our feelings were hurt (although they were). Furerthermore, why are you absolving the “old-timers” of their responsibilities to be welcoming? What kind of values are they portraying? What kind of message are parents who think they’re better than other people passing on to their kids?

First of all, I am sorry about your experience and I am not absolving the “old-timers” of anything at all. I am talking about an observation of behavior I’ve witnessed in school parents at the preschool/K level. I do think people forget too easily to talk to and include other newer parents to the school. When a person can step back and observe what is going on and why, it can go a long in determining one’s reaction to situations at they present themselves. You felt the school you left had too many cliques and felt unwelcome. That is sad and I’m not sure if there were other parents that felt as you did or if there were not other parents you could have started out with in doing things. When one is busy with others, one is less likely to worry about the clique.

 

[KellyPalmer]

I am sorry about your son. I think what I meant and have seen with 3 kids is this. mom A, B and C have 3 kids started out together in preschool. they get together for lunch and make play dates with the 3 (same sex). Likewise mom A, B and C also have at the same age younger sibs 2-3 years behind each also are included in the get togethers with the older sibs. Now the older sibs are in 1st grade and the younger sibs are starting out preschool and already know each other and have already gotten together and played together so even though there is nothing wrong with any of the above, it looks like a clique. You are mom D with your oldest in preschool starting out. You see mom A, B and C talking about 1st grade stuff, still getting together with the 2nd group of sibs and feel maybe left out. Mom A, B and C forget to try and include you as mom D. The best thing for you to do to feel included is look for mom E, F and G and get together with other newbie moms and do things together. As you get to know other moms and do things together. Stepping back and understanding this, reaching out to other new parents goes a long way in helping yourself and your children to “feel apart” of the school. Then you avoid what one poster did was get mad about “cliques” and leave the school at the early stages.
You have to step back, take a long view of school life with your children and realize that you are hopefully in for the long term if it is a Catholic elementary k-8 and focus that you are there for the education of your children and while it is nice to become friends and buddies with other parents that is not the most important thing and the not bottom line.

I see what you mean but I was commenting on the thought that it intensifies as they get older. We can chat about parental cliques all day but the kids are going to have their own cliques that don’t reflect who we parents wanted to hang out with when they were in preschool. I liked that this school attempted to form relationships within the school, outside of parental cliques. Forming relationships that would have formed naturally had parents and their kids known each other years ago.

Also, I agree with the PP that the old timers shouldn’t be free of responsibility. And the new guy should just find other new people and start from scratch with older children. That’s not very charitable or welcoming.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Just wanted to share my personal experiences.

Middle school and high school were very, very dark periods in my life for personal reasons.

I went to both Catholic and public schools during this time. Both the Catholic school and the public school were helpful to me, in numerous ways. Were it not for the support of the teachers, administrators and other staff members in both the Catholic AND public schools that I went to, I would probably be dead today.

I did not notice much of a difference between the Catholic and public school. Both were excellent. Both were filled with kind, caring, selfless staff that worked tirelessly on my behalf. Neither the Catholic school nor the public school got nearly as much credit as they deserve. Neither gets paid what they are worth, in my opinion!

 

[TomD62]

I’m new to participating in Forum so I apologize if this is not exactly related to this discussion. Our son is in 8th grade at Catholic school, which we love, but we believe he has been treated unfairly. I know that sounds bias. He is a very sensitive 14 year old and sometimes gets upset too easily. As a result he is seeing a therapist. He gets 'A’s and 'B’s. He’s never been suspended. He is not a model student either, but not a trouble maker or wise guide. Unfortunately, because he has a reputation for getting upset (not violent) the Principle told us today that she does not want him back. It is breaking his heart. My wife and I don’t know what to do. He’s been there since pre-K 4.

Now when he should be looking forward to 8th grade graduation and high school, he is now sad, depressed and embarrassed. It’s breaking my heart writing this.

We didn’t even know this was possible. I know this can’t happen in public schools.
Does anyone know if we have any recourse to keep him in school? Thank you very much.

 

[EasterJoy]

Actually, cliques can and do start in Pre-k and kindergarten classrooms, and intensify as the kids grow older. They happen outside of school on playgrounds and in neighborhoods as well as in any type of school. Its especially bad with little girls, but boys have cliques, too. Of course not all children are in cliques, but not all adults are either. It’s just one of those unfortunate parts of life we need to teach our kids to deal with.

A core group is not a bad thing, per se, however. Our boys happen to be in a class in which the core group (formed before they came to the school) is intent on seeing that everyone is treated fairly, that they hold each other to care about academic success, and so on. The “core group” parents made us feel nothing but welcome and our kids, joining the class at the start of middle school, have been treated as if they’ve always been there.

I don’t know that you can help having a core group, because every group has its natural leaders. It is what the core group does with the inevitable “power of quorum” that makes all the difference.

 

[robwar]

I’m new to participating in Forum so I apologize if this is not exactly related to this discussion. Our son is in 8th grade at Catholic school, which we love, but we believe he has been treated unfairly. I know that sounds bias. He is a very sensitive 14 year old and sometimes gets upset too easily. As a result he is seeing a therapist. He gets 'A’s and 'B’s. He’s never been suspended. He is not a model student either, but not a trouble maker or wise guide. Unfortunately, because he has a reputation for getting upset (not violent) the Principle told us today that she does not want him back. It is breaking his heart. My wife and I don’t know what to do. He’s been there since pre-K 4.

Now when he should be looking forward to 8th grade graduation and high school, he is now sad, depressed and embarrassed. It’s breaking my heart writing this.

We didn’t even know this was possible. I know this can’t happen in public schools.
Does anyone know if we have any recourse to keep him in school? Thank you very much.

Go to your priest and discuss this. It is cruel and a shame that at the last minute, this principal wants to pull the rug out from under him. The priest is the employer of the principal. If you do not get any satisfaction from the priest in overruling the principal, you then can go above the priest to the bishop as well as contacting the office of schools and the superintendent of schools for your diocese for their help. document everything you do met with, email etc. This is wrong because your son is getting help and will be graduating and out of there in 4 months.

 

[robwar]

I’m new to participating in Forum so I apologize if this is not exactly related to this discussion. Our son is in 8th grade at Catholic school, which we love, but we believe he has been treated unfairly. I know that sounds bias. He is a very sensitive 14 year old and sometimes gets upset too easily. As a result he is seeing a therapist. He gets 'A’s and 'B’s. He’s never been suspended. He is not a model student either, but not a trouble maker or wise guide. Unfortunately, because he has a reputation for getting upset (not violent) the Principle told us today that she does not want him back. It is breaking his heart. My wife and I don’t know what to do. He’s been there since pre-K 4.

Now when he should be looking forward to 8th grade graduation and high school, he is now sad, depressed and embarrassed. It’s breaking my heart writing this.

We didn’t even know this was possible. I know this can’t happen in public schools.
Does anyone know if we have any recourse to keep him in school? Thank you very much.

One final thought, did this principal actually kick him out or did she just say this with the hope of intimidating you out? Also what state do you live in? you can PM me privately because I think that I can help.

 

[TomD62]

Yes, she actual did, and without any details as to why. I know it’s difficult to believe, but my wife an I were completely blind sided. I would love to discuss with this with you.