Catholic Septuigant Books and Martin Luther throwing them out

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I know Martin Luther was an Augustine monk and was wondering if he was well educated in the historical aspects of the old testament books of the greek septuigaint. If so what were is reason and accusations for throwing them out? Did he not realize the historical aspects to the septuigant or apocraphyal books? Why do scholars now a days prove or show that the jews did use those books? Do the Jews now a days use the same old testament books Catholics use? If so why and if not why? Thanks!
 
Actually, the Greek Septuagint, which is the official OT of the Churches of the Byzantine tradition, including Catholic ones, has more books than the Vulgate.

So FIRST ask why the Latin Church did not receive these, and why they were excluded.
 
So FIRST ask why the Latin Church did not receive these, and why they were excluded.

Let us not forget who left who. There is but one First, Holy, Catholic Church. God’s very own Roman Catholic Church, Started by Christ and continued on through the line of Peter, The Popes.

What The Church has done, God has inspired.

May God Bless You and Guide You Home.

NOT JUST STRONG…CATHOLIC STRONG!!!
 
I know Martin Luther was an Augustine monk and was wondering if he was well educated in the historical aspects of the old testament books of the greek septuigaint
He was a professor of Scripture, so we can presume he had a good knowledge of these things, at least so far as the scholarship of the day permitted.
If so what were is reason and accusations for throwing them out?
He threw them out because their theology did not agree with his (things like purgatory and praying for the dead). In his mind, if something did not accord with his pet theologies, he was under no obligation to accept them. This is why he wanted to also jettison several NEW Testament books.
Did he not realize the historical aspects to the septuigant or apocraphyal books?
That doesn’t seem to have been a factor in his decision to “de-canonize” them.
Why do scholars now a days prove or show that the jews did use those books?
I don’t understand this question. Can you rephrase please?
Do the Jews now a days use the same old testament books Catholics use?
Jews use the same books that Catholics use, less 7 and parts of two others.
If so why and if not why?
They don’t use the exact same books, because the Jews have set their canon, and we Christians have set ours. They have no right to tell us what is in our Bible any more than we have a right to tell them what is in theirs.

Contrary to popular misconception, the Christian canon (Old and New Testaments) was set long before the Jews definitively set theirs. At the end of the 1st century, certain groups of Jews (acting in an unofficial capacity) did reject the 7 books that were found in the Septuagint (accepted by Christians) on the grounds that they knew of no copies of them in Hebrew. They turned out to be mistaken, however, as copies of at least some of the disputed books were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Luther also adopted this faulty belief as a rationale to reject these books as well.
You’re welcome. For more information see:

The Council That Wasn’t:
The Myth of Jabneh and the Old Testament Canon


5 Myths about 7 Books

Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church

Hope that helps! 🙂
 
Thank you that really helped…so the dead sea scrolls contain some of the books from the Septuigant that Catholics use or what? I am not to familiar with the dead sea scrolls so can you elaborate? Also can you tell more and give some historical references and details on when the Jews officially made their canon of scripture? Thanks!
 
Thank you that really helped…so the dead sea scrolls contain some of the books from the Septuigant that Catholics use or what? I am not to familiar with the dead sea scrolls so can you elaborate?
The article over at Wikipedia should give you some could basic information. Other than that, someone here may have a book or some books to recommend. You may want to start a new thread on this.
Also can you tell more and give some historical references and details on when the Jews officially made their canon of scripture? Thanks!
The final “date” that the Jews officially set their canon is uncertain. As the first article I linked states:
This uncertainty [of the Jewish canon] continued well into the second century. The discussion over the books of the canon of the Old Testament continued among the Jews long after Jabneh, which demonstrates that the canon was still under discussion in the third century—well beyond the apostolic period. The challenges to canonicity at Jabneh involved only Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon, but the debate over the canon continued past Jabneh, even into the second and third centuries. Even the Hebrew canon accepted by Protestants today was disputed by the Jews for two hundred years after Christ.
Any deeper details than that, you may have to do some research on your own. Or start a new thread! 🙂
 
I know Martin Luther was an Augustine monk and was wondering if he was well educated in the historical aspects of the old testament books of the greek septuigaint. If so what were is reason and accusations for throwing them out? Did he not realize the historical aspects to the septuigant or apocraphyal books? Why do scholars now a days prove or show that the jews did use those books? Do the Jews now a days use the same old testament books Catholics use? If so why and if not why? Thanks!
Luther rejected the deuterocanonical reasons because they contradicted his theology. He also tried to dump James, Hebrews, 2 & 3 John, Jude and Revelation but was talked out of it by his friends.

In the time of Jesus there were five different biblical canons used by the Jews. They have all been eliminated but one, the canon of the Pharisees, which is in use today and corresponds to the Protestant OT canon.
 
Thank you that really helped…so the dead sea scrolls contain some of the books from the Septuigant that Catholics use or what? I am not to familiar with the dead sea scrolls so can you elaborate? Also can you tell more and give some historical references and details on when the Jews officially made their canon of scripture? Thanks!
The DSS containd at least fragments of every OT book in the Protestant canon except Esther. It contained several of the deuterocanonical books but, except for Tobit, I don’t remember which ones. There were also a couple of books that are found in no one’s OT.
 
ok great…someone just mentioned there were 5 canons in Jewish torah…can anyone name the groups ( I think I know of at least two groups were the Pharisees and Sadducees) and the different various books in those canons amongst the groups? I know Greek speaking Jews use the Septuigant I think…
 
ok great…someone just mentioned there were 5 canons in Jewish torah…can anyone name the groups ( I think I know of at least two groups were the Pharisees and Sadducees) and the different various books in those canons amongst the groups? I know Greek speaking Jews use the Septuigant I think…
The torah refers to the first five books of the OT: Gen, Ex, Lev, Num & Deut.

There were at least five known versions of the OT canon among the Jews:
  1. The Pharasaic canon: Corresponds to the OT canon used by Protestants today. It does not include the deuterocanonical books. Obviously it also excludes the New Testament. Some scholars believe that the Pharisees rejected the deuterocanonical books largely because they were used by the Christians.
  2. The Canon of the Saducees: This includes only the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible which were written by Moses. This includes Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
  3. The Canon of the Essenes: Included all of the books used by the Pharisees except for Esther but included some of the deuterocanonical books and some books that neither Protestants nor Catholics use.
  4. The Canon of the Samaritans: This canon consisted of the Pentateuch but the text differed slightly from the Masoretic text. Some differences are minor such as the ages of people in the genealogies while others are more important such as cammanding monogamy in Lev 18:18.
  5. The Septuagint: The Septuagint (LXX) is actually a Greek translation of the OT used by the Jews living in Diaspora. This list included all of the books in the Catholic canon plus a few additional books (1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees, 4 Maccabees and the Prayer of Manasseh) and an additional Psalm (151) which are used by the Eastern Orthodox churches since the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672. (Not all of the Orthodox churches use all of them.) The Septuagint is the version of the OT which is quoted in the NT almost all of the time.
 
oh wow! GReat info! So when you say the Septuigant is quoted from NT do you mean the NT writers refer to some of the prophecies in old testament? Can you give some examples? Also if Martin Luther knew this is there a particular reason why he chose the Pharisees book when this all went down in the reformation or what was the reasoning?
 
Actually, the Greek Septuagint, which is the official OT of the Churches of the Byzantine tradition, including Catholic ones, has more books than the Vulgate.

So FIRST ask why the Latin Church did not receive these, and why they were excluded.
The Latin church has a long tradition dating back to just before 400 A.D. defining our canon of scripture. This canon wasn’t just made up then, it was set due to a challenge presented by St. Jerome (who accepted the final decesions of Hippo, Carthaige 1, Carthiage 2). This was later ratified in Florence and made dogmatic at Trent.

Sooooo, given our history with the Canon, I feel pretty confident in the knowlege that our Canon reflects the actual usage (as well as official acceptance as being divinly inspired) from the first days.

On the Orthodox side, there’s no standard and no dogmatic proclamation. The Greeks use the 3 “extra” books of the Septuigant (hey, fine), the Russians add still one more, the Etheopeans have 81 books in their Canon.

Not that I’m saying there’s anything wrong with these books, but on the Orthodox side how does one sort out which books are actually divinly inspired and which ones are “nice, but not officially confirmed as being inspired at best”.
 
oh wow! GReat info! So when you say the Septuigant is quoted from NT do you mean the NT writers refer to some of the prophecies in old testament? Can you give some examples? Also if Martin Luther knew this is there a particular reason why he chose the Pharisees book when this all went down in the reformation or what was the reasoning?
See posts #4 and #7. His reasons were ideological, not biblical.
 
The Latin church has a long tradition dating back to just before 400 A.D. defining our canon of scripture. This canon wasn’t just made up then, it was set due to a challenge presented by St. Jerome (who accepted the final decesions of Hippo, Carthaige 1, Carthiage 2). This was later ratified in Florence and made dogmatic at Trent.

Sooooo, given our history with the Canon, I feel pretty confident in the knowlege that our Canon reflects the actual usage (as well as official acceptance as being divinly inspired) from the first days.

On the Orthodox side, there’s no standard and no dogmatic proclamation. The Greeks use the 3 “extra” books of the Septuigant (hey, fine), the Russians add still one more, the Etheopeans have 81 books in their Canon.

Not that I’m saying there’s anything wrong with these books, but on the Orthodox side how does one sort out which books are actually divinly inspired and which ones are “nice, but not officially confirmed as being inspired at best”.
Not that it matters but Jerome did not accept the decision of Hippo or Carthage as is evidenced by his prologues to each of the deuteros which were crystal clear in their rejection of the canonical status of the deuteros.
 
Not that it matters but Jerome did not accept the decision of Hippo or Carthage as is evidenced by his prologues to each of the deuteros which were crystal clear in their rejection of the canonical status of the deuteros.
You’re correct about it not mattering. Jerome did not consider the 7 deuterocanonical books canonical by the same erroneous reasoning of his contemporary Jewish scholars— that they knew of no copies of them in Hebrew. As pointed out above, they (and he) turned out to be mistaken, as copies of at least some of the disputed books were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

It further does not matter since Jerome, loyal son of the Church that he was, did include these books as Sacred Scripture. He was humble enough to recognize, saint that he was, that individual Christians (even learned scholars) do not have the authority to definitively interpret Sacred Scripture, let alone determine the canonicity of any given book.

Would that Martin Luther have had that same humilty. He might have ended up being considered a great Saint by all Christians today.
 
So St. Jeroma at first disagreed is that correct about the Canon? Than he humbled himself and was corrected by the magesterium and he humbly changed mind is that right? When did he change his mind?
 
Also what exactly are the dead sea scrolls? Are they greek translated epistles or what? The dead sea scrolls spoke of some of the books in the septuigant? Can someone offer some websites for reading about the dead sea scrolls please…
 
You’re correct about it not mattering. Jerome did not consider the 7 deuterocanonical books canonical by the same erroneous reasoning of his contemporary Jewish scholars— that they knew of no copies of them in Hebrew. As pointed out above, they (and he) turned out to be mistaken, as copies of at least some of the disputed books were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

It further does not matter since Jerome, loyal son of the Church that he was, did include these books as Sacred Scripture. He was humble enough to recognize, saint that he was, that individual Christians (even learned scholars) do not have the authority to definitively interpret Sacred Scripture, let alone determine the canonicity of any given book.
Would that Martin Luther have had that same humilty. He might have ended up being considered a great Saint by all Christians today.
You are in error. Jerome clearly rejected the canonocity of the deutero’s and did not include them as part of canonical scripture as is easily demonstrated by the prologues he wrote for each deuterocanonical book. It is true that the deutero’s were bound together with the rest of the canonical scriptures but they certainly were not included as “part” of the canon in Jerome’s eyes or anyone elses eyes that could read the prefaces Jerome wrote to each deutero.

Using the faulty logic you are attempting to use one could say that Luther too accepted the canon set forth by the North African councils since he too included the deutero’s in his version of the bible. Clearly there is a differnce between including the detuero’s in the same binding as the canonical scriptures and accepting the deutero’s as canonical. The KJV of the bible as well as the Generva bible all included the deutero’s, at least the early versions of the KJV and Geneva bible did. But, and this is important, neither of these two bibles accepted the deutero’s as canonical. Same with Jerome and the Vulgate.

You are simply trying to hard to defend your church by white washing historical fact.

Among the many places you can verify what I am saying is true is www.newadvent.org. Read the section on the canon of the old testament.

For example:
New Advent Canon of the OT:
This period exhibits a curious exchange of opinions between the West and the East, while ecclesiastical usage remained unchanged, at least in the Latin Church. During this intermediate age the use of St. Jerome’s new version of the Old Testament (the Vulgate) became widespread in the Occident. With its text went Jerome’s prefaces disparaging the deuterocanonicals, and under the influence of his authority the West began to distrust these and to show the first symptoms of a current hostile to their canonicity
.

Note two things about the above quote:
1.) The text of the Vulgate included Jerome’s prologues or prefaces disparaging the deuterocanonicals. Kind of hard to claim Jerome accepted the canon of whatever council regarding the canonical status of the deutero’s while he rejected them according to historical fact.

2.) Because of Jerome’s influence and authority the West began to distrust the deutero’s canonocity. Again, because of Jerome’s influence and clear teaching regarding the deutero’s some began to doubt their canonocity. What is important is that it was Jerome, loyal son of the church and saint too, that rejected the canonocity of the deutero’s and was apparently the chief cause of others rejecting them too.

Jerome, loyal son of the church and saint though he may have been, did not accept the deutero’s as canonical as even a brief reading of the historical record surrounding the deutero’s will clearly show.

By the way, Jerome would have still been a “loyal son of the church” all the while rejecting the canon’s of Carthage and Hippo since they were only provinicial councils. The debate over the OT canon and the canonocity of the deutero’s continued within the Catholic church all the way up to Trent and was debated at Trent by the council fathers.

What is most clear about all of this is that Jerome most certainly did not accept the decision of the early councils with regards to the canonocity of the deutero’s.
 
I know Martin Luther was an Augustine monk and was wondering if he was well educated in the historical aspects of the old testament books of the greek septuigaint. If so what were is reason and accusations for throwing them out? Did he not realize the historical aspects to the septuigant or apocraphyal books? Why do scholars now a days prove or show that the jews did use those books? Do the Jews now a days use the same old testament books Catholics use? If so why and if not why? Thanks!
The problem with Martin Luther was that he had an ego bigger than the Burj Khalifa (that’s the world’s tallest buildling, by the way). Luther was personally “at war” with Saint Augustine, from whom his order took its identity. He actually believed that he was a more informed and greater theologian than this saint, as well as Thomas Aquinas. He was the one who challenged the canon of Scripture and deduced that if the books of the Jewish canon were not in the Old Testament as decided upon at Jamnia by a bunch of anti-Christian rabbis (somehow he missed this point) then the books didn’t belong in the canon, so he wanted them thrown out. He also had a problem with the book of James and John’s Revelation which he felt were not inspired. The fact is, the Septuagint was used throughout the Mediterranean area by Greek-speaking Jews prior to Jamnia (about 90 AD). Passages from the Septuagint were also incorporated into the gospels by the gospel writers.
 
He was the one who challenged the canon of Scripture and deduced that if the books of the Jewish canon were not in the Old Testament as decided upon at Jamnia by a bunch of anti-Christian rabbis (somehow he missed this point) then the books didn’t belong in the canon, so he wanted them thrown out.
First, Jamnia didn’t discuss the deutero’s and as far as I know, most scholars have given up on the theory that Jamnia decided much of anything with regards to the canon. There are several articles at Gary Michuta’s website that discuss this common misunderstanding of Jamnia. www.handsonapologetics.com

Secondly, can you provide a primary source for your claim that Luther rejected the deutero’s simply because of a supposed council of Jamnia’s decision?
 
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