Catholic sexual morality - indefensible?

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Life there includes every aspect of life…and procreation is part of life. If what Christ said is as you said dumb, then show us what is not dumb. Refute Christ’ words, if you want, reasonably and clearly. The word “dumb” is not a valid argument. If I ride with your strategy then we could become like dogs barking at each other here.
I have no intention of refuting Christ’s words. I have every intention of refuting the meaning you read into them:

The quote is taken from John 10:10.
The context is Jesus’ teaching on passing through the door, and how he that does not enter the fold through the door is a thief and a robber. Jesus then states that the shepherd enters through the door, and that the sheep follows His voice. He then proceeds to call Himself the door by which the sheep enter, and explains that the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy - but that He comes to bring life - abundantly.

Now, “life” in the johannine litterature almost ALWAYS means “eternal life” - life as a relational term, “qualitative” (is that a word in English?) term; not a physical term (a weighty circumstantial evidence of the early, Jewish, origins of John, btw). So when Jesus says that He comes to bring “life” abundantly, He is not saying that He has come so that more people can be born. He’s saying that He has come so that people can have life everlasting.
 
Pete,

Some reading for you:

The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Let’s begin by meditating upon what might be called the first of the secular ironies now evident: Humanae Vitae’s specific predictions about what the world would look like if artificial contraception became widespread. The encyclical warned of four resulting trends: a general lowering of moral standards throughout society; a rise in infidelity; a lessening of respect for women by men; and the coercive use of reproductive technologies by governments.
Although it is largely Catholic thinkers who have connected the latest empirical evidence to the defense of Humanae Vitae’s predictions, during those same forty years most of the experts actually producing the empirical evidence have been social scientists operating in the secular realm.
 
The quote is taken from John 10:10.
The context is Jesus’ teaching on passing through the door, and how he that does not enter the fold through the door is a thief and a robber. Jesus then states that the shepherd enters through the door, and that the sheep follows His voice. He then proceeds to call Himself the door by which the sheep enter, and explains that the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy - but that He comes to bring life - abundantly.
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. The law says, “Thou shalt not kill.” Do not tell me that that law has nothing to do with the physical life of man. Throughout the consciousness of the Jews, they knew that the law deals also with physical life. Spiritual life cannot be reached apart and without regard of human life.

Therefore, a man who murders another man, a man who prevents the development of human life, that man is going against the commandment and the will of God. He is therefore against spiritual life too!
 
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. The law says, “Thou shalt not kill.” Do not tell me that that law has nothing to do with the physical life of man. Throughout the consciousness of the Jews, they knew that the law deals also with physical life. Spiritual life cannot be reached apart and without regard of human life.

Therefore, a man who murders another man, a man who prevents the development of human life, that man is going against the commandment and the will of God. He is therefore against spiritual life too!
So it’s wrong for me to kill a sperm?
 
So it’s wrong for me to kill a sperm?
For what purpose would you kill your sperm? If the purpose is to prevent it from meeting the egg, and thus prevent the possible coming forth of life, then it is surely a sin!

What matter most here is the content of one’s heart in relation to life.
Christ died for life. And here comes a man demonstrating utter disrespect for life!
 
For what purpose would you kill your sperm? If the purpose is to prevent it from meeting the egg, and thus prevent the possible coming forth of life, then it is surely a sin!

What matter most here is the content of one’s heart in relation to life.
Christ died for life. And here comes a man demonstrating utter disrespect for life!
Then NFP is immoral.
 
Then NFP is immoral.
If NFP involved something remotely spermicidal, you’d have a point. Otherwise, going from “Is it wrong to kill a sperm?” to “NFP is immoral” is a leap worthy of Olympic gold.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
If NFP involved something remotely spermicidal, you’d have a point. Otherwise, going from “Is it wrong to kill a sperm?” to “NFP is immoral” is a leap worthy of Olympic gold.

– Mark L. Chance.
The intention - namely to prevent procreation whilst still enjoying the benefits of sex does not differ between NFP and contraception.
 
The intention - namely to prevent procreation whilst still enjoying the benefits of sex does not differ between NFP and contraception.
This also cannot be further from the truth.

It is very clear that you do not understand the Church’s teaching in this area and have resisted every attempt to help you understand it.😦
 
Firstly the idea that sexual activity ought to always be ‘open to life’ is frankly ridiculous. What possible reason could anyone have for suggesting that contraception is immoral, whom does it harm?
If contraception is ok, who’s to say that homosexuality isn’t? Whom does it harm?
I like Catholic sexual morality, but it genuinley seems unjustifiable. Has no one noticed that virtually no respectable secular contemporary philosophers maintain a Catholic view of sexual morality? Surely this cannot purely because they have ‘hardened their hearts’
The Church’s job is to teach Christian sexuality. Just take a look at our culture and compare for yourself who’s teaching is correct.

The Church teaching comes from Jewish tradition.

Have a look:
ccli.org/nfp/morality/bible.php
 
If contraception is ok, who’s to say that homosexuality isn’t? Whom does it harm?

The Church’s job is to teach Christian sexuality. Just take a look at our culture and compare for yourself who’s teaching is correct.
Now, here’s the thing. Whether you subscribe to notions of ‘correct’ teaching or not, the fact is that if you are not a Christian and don’t believe in the Christian concept of God, then there is a lot of Catholic morality - sexual or otherwise - that is rationally indefensible.

The question of whether artificial birth control causes harm (and I am talking here in the context of being used correctly, by persons who have no contrary medical indications) is answered one way in a Catholic context and generally the opposite way in a secular context. In fact, use of birth control methods has been shown to have many benefits - reduced incidence of unwanted pregnancy, and consequently abortion; reduced incidence of sexually transmitted infections; and studies have shown that when young people are educated in the use of birth control and safe sex options, they tend to delay sexual activity, have fewer partners and fewer complications in the form of pregnancy or infection. These are all practical benefits.

However, the Catholic church takes the view that all these benefits are obtained through abstinence. From a practical point of view, if you’re not exposed to sex, you can’t get pregnant nor contract an infection. This is also perfectly correct.

Had I more time (and not just my lunch break at work) I would endeavour to refute the notion that sexual activity outside marriage is harmful in and of itself, without recourse to religious doctrine. That would take a lot more explanation, however, so for the moment I will simply say that if one does not make reference to Christ or to the Christian God, an act of sexual intercourse between consenting adults is not wrong, immoral or harmful in and of itself. It only becomes morally problematic through other means - if it is an act of exploitation, for example (prostitution, one partner being less-than-honest about their feelings in order to dupe the other partner into sex, etc.)

So, Pete, you’re quite right in saying that many of the Catholic Church’s teachings on sexuality are indefensible, or at least misleading and unnecessarily complex - provided these claims are made independently of any religious context.
 
The intention - namely to prevent procreation whilst still enjoying the benefits of sex does not differ between NFP and contraception.
In a sense you’re right, but that doesn’t mean Church teaching on the issue is wrong.

See, I can have a particular intention - ie to obtain money to pay my bills - and have that intention not differ between a morally OK means of obtaining it (working) and a morally bad means (robbing, prostituting myself, dealing drugs).

Church teaching on contraception is much more to do with the morality of the means than the morality of the end. And the Church has always been clear on that point - and it’s quite valid, as in the case of robbery which can be an immoral means of obtaining a morally OK end.
 
Now that I have a little more leisure to be expansive, I will endeavour to explain part of what I mentioned earlier - that rationally, extramarital sexual activity is not morally wrong in and of itself, when examined independently of any religious teaching.

I recall reading a post somewhere on this thread that referred to the notion that premarital sex, possibly with several partners (what is often referred to as ‘serial monogamy’, for example) ends up making marriage all about sexual attraction rather than a deeper and more meaningful relationship.

I would dispute that on the grounds that, based upon my experience and observations, quite the opposite is true. I and many of my friends have formed lasting relationships/marriages with significant others with whom we are not only sexually compatible (one of the things you learn through experience) but emotionally, intellectually and spiritually compatible also. It’s not just about sex, because experience teaches you that there is far more to life and love than physical intimacy. Besides which, we also know that sexual intimacy is far, far, far better and more fulfilling with someone who meets all (or as many as possible!) of your criteria for a best friend for life.

I can only imagine what it would have been like to wait for marriage, but it seems to me that delaying sexual intimacy can have some unfortunate consequences. Firstly, it could lead to rushing into marriage in order to experience sex. Secondly, it could lead to a discovery of complete distaste for sex with the person to whom you have committed yourself. Also, given that you haven’t experienced sex with anyone else, how are you to know whether you’re staying with your spouse just because they’re the only person you’re allowed to have sex with, rather than because you are well suited to them and enjoy their companionship on many other levels? To me, it seems this approach is far more likely to result in marriage being ‘all about sex’.

To make a simple point, and to link this to the original purpose of this thread - I would not go quite so far as to say that Catholic sexual morality is completely indefensible. Obviously it works well for some people, and it does have a certain amount of practicality attached to it. As I said before, abstinence does make it rather impossible to get pregnant, or to contract a sexually-transmitted infection. However, there is much of it that only makes sense if you believe in God - specifically, the Christian conception of God, a God who claims ultimate ownership of your body.
 
The intention - namely to prevent procreation whilst still enjoying the benefits of sex does not differ between NFP and contraception.
And, again, if intention was the sole criterion for determining the morality of an action, you’d have a point.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
The intention - namely to prevent procreation whilst still enjoying the benefits of sex does not differ between NFP and contraception.
To “prevent” implies the performance of an overt act to achieve prevention. In contraception, the overt act could be the placing of an instrument inside the womb so that the union of egg and sperm would be prevented, or so that a newly united egg and sperm would die out. But in NFP, is there an overt act done ? None! Not having sex on a particular day is not an overt act at all. It is simply not acting sex for a particular time. Anyway, it is not a duty of man to have sex everyday…

When one “kills” his sperm, he just does an overt act. And he would be held accountable to the author of life for his intention in such overt act.
 
Isn’t it more likley that Catholic morality is false rather than postulating that virtually every academic philosopher is somehow blinded by lust.
Nope. That the few, or many, reject true and logical arguments does not make the truth wrong it means some refuse to accept what is true.
 
Nope. That the few, or many, reject true and logical arguments does not make the truth wrong it means some refuse to accept what is true.
What logical arguments? Could you enlighten me?
 
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