Catholic soteriology only goes PART of the way with the Gospel of the Circumcision

[TheOpenTheist]

Thats a pretty accurate summary of Catholic soteriology Knight.

The thing is, Catholics do away with the warnings in the Circumcision Epistles of Hebrews, 1 John and 2 Peter, for example, that tell the Circumcision Believers (who believed the Gospel of the Circumcision which required circumcision and obedience to the law) that if they “sin willfully” or commit a “mortal sin” or an “unpardonable sin” or “fall away” then there is no forgiveness for those sins and all they have to look forward to is damnation.

• Matthew 12:31-32 " Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy [against] the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the [age] to come.
• Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
• Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
• 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin [which does] not [lead] to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not [leading] to death. There is sin [leading] to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
• 2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

Fortunately, for us in the Body of Christ, these warnings do not apply to us. Once we believe Paul’s Gospel of the Uncircumcision (Gal 2:7), which he also refers to as the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery (Rom 16:25), we are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13) and are sealed until the Day of Redemption (Eph 1:13-14). We are complete in Him (Col 2:10). We are accepted in the Beloved (Eph 1:6). And we are at the moment of belief translated from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13).

We relate to God through the economy, or the house rules of the grace of God that God gave to Paul for us (Eph 3:2). Praise God always for this truth!

 

[sara888]

**Gal and Romans are a favorite of the Eternal Security Believers, however you are taking a couple of verses out of context and not applying the rest of the NT of Christ.

Jesus instructed and taught Matthew, Mark, Luke and John the consequences for believers who do not obey His commands.

Again I cannot say this enough on any of the threads that all seem to come down to Salvation and Faith.

If Commandments are part of Faith and Faith is part of Salvation , you cannot seperate them.

For Faith lead us to produce good works out of Love for Christ. Sinners do not go to Heaven and Christians who do not love Christ do not go into the Kingdom ,Loving Christ means to obey his commandments.

Jesus said"nothing unclean or unholy may enter. So belief only does not gurantee a Christian instant entrance into Heaven.
If you love me you abide in me. Faith Love and obidence to Gods word, all of Gods words.!
Sara**

 

[TheOpenTheist]

sara

Works have no part in the Uncircumcision Gospel that Christ gave to Paul. We are not under the law and will not be judged by the law. We can never be identified as law-breakers of any sort because “where there is no law there is no transgression” (Romans).

you reasoned

If Commandments are part of Faith and Faith is part of Salvation , you cannot seperate them.

This thinking is misguided since keeping commandments or keeping the law is NOT a requirement for the Body of Christ as Paul states over and over again in his epistles. Keeping the law or keeping the commandments is not a part of faith in this current economy/administration/dispensation [pick whichever of the three translations of *oikonomia you prefer]. Keeping the commandments is not a part of salvation for those of us in the Body of Christ.

 

[The_Augustinian]

Antinomianism is a heresy. Although we are not to follow the judicial and ceremonial precepts, the moral precepts are part of natural law, and thus are not limited to the Jews. It is part of eternal law, and we are all to follow them. Read the Treatise on Law by St. Thomas Aquinas for more details.

 

[dcdurel]

sara

Works have no part in the Uncircumcision Gospel that Christ gave to Paul. We are not under the law and will not be judged by the law. We can never be identified as law-breakers of any sort because “where there is no law there is no transgression” (Romans).
.

This is incorrect. St. Paul was correcting those Christians who believed that they were still under the Law of Moses. When St. Paul said that they were not under the law, he was referring to the Law of Moses, which required circumcision, sabbath observance, etc. When a Jew becomes a Christian he passes from under the authority of the Law of Moses to the Law of Christ, (the Gospel).
Thus, he no longer has to obey the Law of Moses, and those rituals that are specific to the Law of Moses, such as circumcision, etc. But, since he is now under the Law of Christ, he certainly must obey this law, which at its core is obededience to the two greatest commandments and the 10 commandments which flows from them.

you reasoned

This thinking is misguided since keeping commandments or keeping the law is NOT a requirement for the Body of Christ as Paul states over and over again in his epistles. Keeping the law or keeping the commandments is not a part of faith in this current economy/administration/dispensation [pick whichever of the three translations of *oikonomia

you prefer]. Keeping the commandments is not a part of salvation for those of us in the Body of Christ.

This reasoning is incorrect. We must realize St. Paul is writing about two different laws. No Christian is under the Law of Moses. If he were, then he would have to be circumcised and he must follow the Jewish feast days.
But all Christians are under the Law of Christ, the Gospel, as taught by the Church, thus to enter heaven we must obey this law the best we can, which can be done only with God’s grace. If we refuse to obey this law, and don’t repent, we lose the grace of salvation which we obtained through faith at baptism and end up in hell, because we are in rebellion against Jesus.

Jimmy Akin’s “The salvation controversy” makes this easier to understand.

 

[deb1]

).

We relate to God through the economy, or the house rules of the grace of God that God gave to Paul for us (Eph 3:2). !

This statement makes it sound as if you are putting Paul above Jesus. I am not trying to misread your post, perhaps you could explain a bit more. I have read of some Christians who believe that what Jesus taught applied to the Jews only. I just wanted to make certain that you aren’t coming from that view point.

 

[Matt16_18]

dcdurel:

This is incorrect. St. Paul was correcting those Christians who believed that they were still under the Law of Moses. When St. Paul said that they were not under the law, he was referring to the Law of Moses, which required circumcision, sabbath observance, etc.

I don’t think that is quite correct either. In Galatians, Paul is arguing that trying to follow the OT Law (which includes the moral law) cannot save a person that is not abiding in Christ. This is because original sin prevents a man from ever being able to perfectly obey the commandments of the Law.

The OT Law included the two great commandments of love and the commandment to be holy:You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might
Deuteronomy 6:5

You shall love your neighbor as yourself
Leviticus 19:18

I the Lord, am your God. And you shall make and keep yourselves holy, because I am holy.
Leviticus 11:44A man born in original sin cannot ever perfectly keep these commandments of the Law, nor can a man be holy without first receiving sanctifying grace from the Sacrament of Baptism. That is why Abraham and the OT saints did not go to Heaven when they died, they wait in Sheol until Christ’s death on the cross released sanctifying grace to men conceived in original sin.

Paul insists that the “Law is good” (Rom 7:16, 1Tim 1:8). The Law convicts us of our sinfulness, so it is good because it points us to what is holy. But the Law also condemns us since unless we abide in Christ we are incapable of perfectly keeping the moral commandments of the Law.**Catechism of the Catholic Church

1963** According to Christian tradition, the [OT] Law is holy, spiritual, and good, yet still imperfect. Like a tutor it shows what must be done, but does not of itself give the strength, the grace of the Spirit, to fulfill it. Because of sin, which it cannot remove, it remains a law of bondage. According to St. Paul, its special function is to denounce and disclose sin, which constitutes a “law of concupiscence” in the human heart. However, the Law remains the first stage on the way to the kingdom. It prepares and disposes the chosen people and each Christian for conversion and faith in the Savior God. It provides a teaching which endures for ever, like the Word of God.

1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity: “I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel. . . . I will put my laws into their hands, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

1966 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to the faithful through faith in Christ. It works through charity; it uses the Sermon on the Mount to teach us what must be done and makes use of the sacraments to give us the grace to do it:

If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there . . . the perfect way of the Christian life. . . . This sermon contains . . . all the precepts needed to shape one’s life.1967 The Law of the Gospel “fulfills,” refines, surpasses, and leads the Old Law to its perfection. In the Beatitudes, the New Law fulfills the divine promises by elevating and orienting them toward the “kingdom of heaven.” …

1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfills the commandments of the Law. The Lord’s Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure, where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.​

 

[banjo]

TheOpenTheist:

Keeping the law or keeping the commandments is not a part of faith in this current economy/administration/dispensation [pick whichever of the three translations of *oikonomia

you prefer]. Keeping the commandments is not a part of salvation for those of us in the Body of Christ.

The sixth commandment deals with purity/impurity. In Eph 5:5, St. Paul says, “Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”

 

[TheOpenTheist]

The Augustinian:

Antinomianism is a heresy. Although we are not to follow the judicial and ceremonial precepts, the moral precepts are part of natural law, and thus are not limited to the Jews. It is part of eternal law, and we are all to follow them. Read the Treatise on Law by St. Thomas Aquinas for more details.

Aquinas is not who anyone should read if they want to understand how those of us in the Body of Christ are justified and relate to God. First, read what Paul (the original source) says about us in the Body and our relationship to the law (or more accurately the lack of relationship to the law) and then go from there. Those in the Body of Christ are not under the law (including the moral law) and will not be judged by the law. We are recognized as having the righteousness of God, not as having whatever amount of righteousness we happen to attain during our short lifetimes.

 

[TheOpenTheist]

dcdurel claimed

This is incorrect. St. Paul was correcting those Christians who believed that they were still under the Law of Moses. When St. Paul said that they were not under the law, he was referring to the Law of Moses, which required circumcision, sabbath observance, etc. When a Jew becomes a Christian he passes from under the authority of the Law of Moses to the Law of Christ, (the Gospel).
Thus, he no longer has to obey the Law of Moses, and those rituals that are specific to the Law of Moses, such as circumcision, etc. But, since he is now under the Law of Christ, he certainly must obey this law, which at its core is obededience to the two greatest commandments and the 10 commandments which flows from them.

That is completely unsubstantiated balogney. The Law of Moses did indeed include the moral law. Where do you think The 10 Commandments came from? God gave them as part of the Law that He delivered to Moses. The command to love your beighbor as you love yourself is without a doubt part of the Law of Moses (Lev 19:18). Other moral laws were also given to Moses outside of The 10 Commandments.

Now, I do not know what you mean by “the law of Christ” as you use it (does it include water baptism?), but I know what it means according to its usage in Galatians where Paul uses the phrase in Gal 6:2

For those who depend on Christ alone rather than Christ + their good works, doing good is truly “good” (v. 10) when it is exclusively for the sake of others (i.e., “for the sake of Christ,” the quintessential other). Paul prefers to boast in the cross of Christ because it signifies a “work” wholly for the benefit of others; thus, Paul is “crucified” to the world, “dead” to the law’s demands (v. 14). To “bear one another’s burdens” is work sown in the Spirit because it is directed away from oneself. Such work, wholly removed from the law (5:22-23), is what Paul calls the “law of Christ” (v. 2). It is also called “love” (5:6)-Paul’s “rule” (v. 16) or principle or guide for those “in Christ” no longer chained to the law. Love is not an add-on because love adds nothing to one’s own standing before God.

you claimed

This reasoning is incorrect. We must realize St. Paul is writing about two different laws.

You could say that and still not be guilty of believing that your works contribute in any way to your salvation or justification. The first law was something that had to be followed in order to be justified. The law of Christ, however, is to be carried out because of our love for Christ. Not because if we fail to do so we will be cast into Hell. Such is not possible for those of us in the Body of Christ due to our being sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the Day of Redemption (Eph 4:30).

you said

No Christian is under the Law of Moses. If he were, then he would have to be circumcised and he must follow the Jewish feast days.

There are many today who do follow the Jewish feast days, but they do not do so because it will add to their righteousness or standing with God. Its great to celebrate feasts and do good works as long as it is motivated out of love for God and not done as a requirement for being accepted by God.

But all Christians are under the Law of Christ, the Gospel, as taught by the Church, thus to enter heaven we must obey this law the best we can, which can be done only with God’s grace.

That’s not accurate. You are wrong in saying that “to enter Heaven we must obey the law of Christ the best we can”. From the context of Gal 6 “the law of Christ” is referring to helping those in the Body to stay the course and build up the Body through selfless acts done. Of course, this is related to the Uncircumcision Gospel that Paul preaches. But nowhere do we get the impression from Paul that we might become damned if we do not follow the law of Christ. To the contrary, Paul writes that when we “trusted Christ…having believed, we were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession” (Eph 1:13-14). Those of us in the Body of Christ have a guarantee that we will receive our inheritance.

If we refuse to obey this law, and don’t repent, we lose the grace of salvation which we obtained through faith at baptism and end up in hell, because we are in rebellion against Jesus.

This is utterly false and contrary to the gospel that Christ committed to Paul. You cannot lose grace that has already been received. You can only accept OR reject grace. And we do not receive the gift of salvation, which is by grace, through faith, when we are water baptized. We receive it when we “trust” Christ. That’s when the Holy Spirit seals us.

 

[TheOpenTheist]

deb1:

This statement makes it sound as if you are putting Paul above Jesus. I am not trying to misread your post, perhaps you could explain a bit more. I have read of some Christians who believe that what Jesus taught applied to the Jews only. I just wanted to make certain that you aren’t coming from that view point.

Nothing I said in the above quote makes it sound “as if I am putting Paul above Jesus”. Nothing I said gives that impression.

It is indisputable that Christ/God revealed to Paul “the mystery” which had been hidden in God before the world began until He revealed it to Paul. Paul also refers to the doctrine given to Him as “the house rules/dispensation/administration of the grace of God” and that it was given to him so he could communicate it to us (Eph 3:2). And yes, these house rules are different from what Christ preached during His earthly ministry in significant ways.

I do believe, as Scripture attests, that what Jesus taught during His earthly ministry was directed specificly to Jews. He says so in several passages including the following.

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:21-26 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw [it] to the little dogs."

Acts 1:6-8 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

It is undeniable that Christ’s message was directed towards a Jewish audience and not to Gentiles. Of course, the ministry of The Twelve never got past Jerusalem because the Jewish leadership did not repent so that Christ could return and rule on the throne of David and bring in the “times of refreshing” and the “times of restoration of all things”(Acts 3:19-26).

Everyone accepts the fact that Jesus taught things during His earthly ministry that we are not to follow or obey today. The following is a short list off the top of my head.

Luke 5:14 And He charged him to tell no one, “But go and show yourself to the priest, and make an offering for your cleansing, as a testimony to them, just as Moses commanded.”

Matthew 5:23-24 "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 "leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Matthew 19:17-19,21 …if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, " ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and [your] mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ "…21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Matthew 5:19-20 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches [them,] he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 7:9-10 He said to them, "[All too] well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 "For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.'

And you can also include in there passages like Matt 10:5-6; 15:21-26; Acts 1:8 since the time for those commands to be obeyed has past. We are no longer supposed to base our evangelizing upon race or geography (2 Cor 5:16).

 

[TheOpenTheist]

banjo:

The sixth commandment deals with purity/impurity. In Eph 5:5, St. Paul says, “Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”

Those in the Body cannot be identified as coveters or idolators or any other sin label because “where there is no law, there is no transgression” (Rom 4:15). If you are a member of the Body of Christ and you steal something, you are not then identified as a thief, for example. Your identity is found in Christ. You possess “the righteousness of God apart from the law” (Rom 3:21-26). Not a righteousness which you achieve through your own works. The Corinthians were still saints despite their sexual sins and their gluttony.

I highly recommend that you read and study Ephesians every day for a month so you can really get down what Paul is saying in that epistle. For example, just seven verses before Eph 5:5 Paul writes

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

This passage shows our security in the Body of Christ in spite of what harm we cause ourselves or others in the future.

And just 2 verses after that, 5 verses prior to Eph 5:5 we read that Christ forgave us, so we ought to forgive others in the Body.
Ephesians 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.

All our sins are forgiven - past, present and future. We’re forgiven and sealed and identified with Christ.

 

[deb1]

TheOpenTheist:

Those in the Body cannot be identified as coveters or idolators or any other sin label because “where there is no law, there is no transgression” (Rom 4:15). If you are a member of the Body of Christ and you steal something, you are not then identified as a thief, for example. Your identity is found in Christ. You possess “the righteousness of God apart from the law” (Rom 3:21-26). Not a righteousness which you achieve through your own works. The Corinthians were still saints despite their sexual sins and their gluttony.

.

I am not being purposely dense, I promise. I am simply having a difficult time wrapping my brain around what you are saying. Are you saying that a Christian can’t commit sins?

I attended a Harvest festival with my sister-in-law-a Baptist- this past weekend. During the festival an illusionist-he was certain to point out that he wasn’t a magician- told the kids that when you get saved that God covers you with his’ cloak of righteousness and can no longer see your sins.’ Is this similar to what you believe?

I apologize ahead of time if I have misinterpreted your beliefs.

 

[Tonks40]

TheOpenTheist:

All our sins are forgiven - past, present and future. We’re forgiven and sealed and identified with Christ.

In all due respect, what you have posted on this thread in regards to Christ “sealing” us to salvation, and that “all…sins are forgiven - past, present and future” are contrary to the Catholic understanding of salvation and justification. Please try and get a better understanding of this by reading how the Catholic Church views this (get a copy of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church) and reading the various posts recommended on this thread.

 

[banjo]

TheOpenTheist:

Those in the Body cannot be identified as coveters or idolators or any other sin label because “where there is no law, there is no transgression” (Rom 4:15). If you are a member of the Body of Christ and you steal something, you are not then identified as a thief, for example. Your identity is found in Christ. You possess “the righteousness of God apart from the law” (Rom 3:21-26). Not a righteousness which you achieve through your own works. The Corinthians were still saints despite their sexual sins and their gluttony.
All our sins are forgiven - past, present and future. We’re forgiven and sealed and identified with Christ.

If it is your contention that once we are justified or “in the Body of Christ” that future serious sins don’t matter, we are saved and can do nothing to lose that salvation, I disagree. I believe that is not only incorrect, I believe it is at odds with the whole of scripture.
Christ did not promise *unconditional *salvation to mankind. Rather, he promised life to those who do his will.

Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father.”

Jn 5:14 “Afterward, Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, 'See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you.”

Rm 2:13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

2 Pt 1:4 "by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that fhrough these you may escape from corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

1 Cor 3:16 “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?”

How can God unite himself with or dwell in total corruption? Paul indeed taught justification by faith but by *obedient *faith (cf. Rm 1:5 and 16:26).