Catholic Souls can become God?

[Todd520]

I have been repeatedly told in CAF that LDS are not Christian because we presume to become gods/God/like god after we die.

Now I read in the Catholic Catechism that Catholics also believe a soul can become God/gods.

Is the Catechism wrong or are some posters un-catechized?
(I unerstand the purpose of the Catechism is to clearly state beliefs so that interpretation errors are not possible.)

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

 

[MarcusAndreas]

“God became man so that man might become God.” - Saint Athanasius

This does not mean we become deities, rather, it means we share in the divine life of God for eternity.

“We become by grace what God is by nature.” - Saint Cyril of Alexandria

This is the same statement, but phrased differently. This is all that is meant by the statement from the catechism.

 

[azerty]

We must remember that the Word, the Son of God, together with the Father and the Holy Spirit, is hidden in essence and in presence, in the inmost being of the soul. That soul, therefore, that will find Him, must go out from all things in will and affection, and enter into the profoundest self-recollection, and all things must be to it as if they existed not. Hence, St. Augustine says: “I found You not without, O Lord; I sought You without in vain, for You are within,” God is therefore hidden within the soul, and the true contemplative will seek Him there in love, saying, “Where have You hidden Yourself?”

St John of the Cross , Spiritual Canticle of the Soul

Accordingly, the intellect of this soul is God’s intellect; its will is God’s will; its memory is the memory of God; and its delight is God’s delight; and although the substance of this soul is not the substance of God, since it cannot undergo a substantial conversion into him, it has become God through participation in God, being united to and absorbed in him, as it is in this state. Such a union is wrought in this perfect state of the spiritual life, yet not as perfectly as in the next life. Consequently the soul is dead to all it was in itself, which was death to it, and alive to what God is in himself. Speaking of itself, the soul declares in this verse: "In killing you changed death to life."17

St John of the Cross , The Living Flame of Love

To reach this state is to become godlike. As a drop of water poured into wine loses itself, and takes the color and savor of wine; or as a bar of iron, heated red-hot, becomes like fire itself, forgetting its own nature; or as the air, radiant with sun-beams, seems not so much to be illuminated as to be light itself; so in the saints all human affections melt away by some unspeakable transmutation into the will of God. For how could God be all in all, if anything merely human remained in man? The substance will endure, but in another beauty, a higher power, a greater glory. When will that be? Who will see, who possess it? “When shall I come to appear before the presence of God?” (Psalm 42:2).

St Bernard , On Loving God

The Greek doctors like St Gregory of Nyssa called this Theosis (divinization). Saints can attain theosis on this earth.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Catholic understanding is based on what God has taught us, in its entirety. So begin with this:

Isaiah 43

10 You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servants whom I have chosen To know and believe in me and understand that it is I. Before me no god was formed, and after me there shall be none.

 

[twopekinguys]

I have been repeatedly told in CAF that LDS are not Christian because we presume to become gods/God/like god after we die.

Now I read in the Catholic Catechism that Catholics also believe a soul can become God/gods.

Is the Catechism wrong or are some posters un-catechized?
(I unerstand the purpose of the Catechism is to clearly state beliefs so that interpretation errors are not possible.)

I asked you this on the thread where you originally posted this question.

I will go ahead and post it here so you can address it.

At one point, you mentioned that you used to be Catholic. How long were you Catholic? Did you have any catechesis?

Knowing your background and knowledge in the Church can help us know where to start.

Also, I see you are addressing this on another board. “Since many Catholics don’t know their own faith, pointing to their Catachism will prove instructive.”, so it appears you already have an anwer in mind.

 

[Caprica]

I asked you this on the thread where you originally posted this question.

I will go ahead and post it here so you can address it.

why not PM him such personal questions?

 

[scipio337]

Uhh, it would help if you would post which part of the Catechism you read this in. It is rather large.

From an LDS source, so please, let’s not hear the cries of “anti-Mormon” or the gnashing of teeth. I don’t find anything in the article I disagree with. It should be noted that the EOC doctrine of theosis, and Catholic doctrine of deification are pretty much identical (or, if there is a difference, I haven’t found it).

Theosis and Exaltation: In Dialogue

…The most profound difference between the doctrines of theosis and exaltation revolves around the way in which humans become divinized, or become gods. In the doctrine of theosis, divinization comes about through participation in the divine energies of the one divine nature, which divine nature is fully possessed by each of the three divine persons who comprise the Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the doctrine of exaltation, divinization comes about through growth of a capacity which is innate to the children born of Heavenly Parents—the Father and his eternal companion. This difference—the difference between participation and growth—can be rooted in two very different ontological understandings of divine nature and human nature.

The doctrine of theosis presupposes that there is a fundamental distinction between uncreated being and created being. God, that is, the three divine persons who are the one God, are understood to be uncreated and eternal.** God always has been divine and always will be divine. Human persons, on the other hand, are created from nothing—creatio ex nihilo. They are forever dependent on God for existence. Thus, the divine nature, the nature of God, is fundamentally different from human nature, the nature of human persons. In fact, one can speak of an ontological divide or chasm separating the two: the former is unoriginate, the latter is originate.**

The doctrine of exaltation presupposes that God is of the same species as human persons. There is no distinction between uncreated and created beings or persons since all persons, divine as well as human, are uncreated. In other words, intelligence, the core or essence of every person (whether divine or human) is self-existent and eternal, uncreated and uncreatable. Through the process of spirit birth, intelligences are clothed by divine parents with spirit bodies and become autonomous, conscious selves. And just as with human children in relation to their human parents, the spirit children of divine parents possess the innate capacity, as a fact of their spirit birth, to progress and grow up into the likeness of their divine parents.

Thus, for the doctrine of theosis, to become divine means to unite in one created person both his or her own created human nature and the uncreated divine energies of the three uncreated divine persons. In other words, a divinized human person never ceases to be created and human; but insofar as that person is divinized, he or she becomes through grace what he or she is not by nature—divine. Furthermore, to speak of divinization by the divine energies, as opposed to the divine essence, is meant to reflect the ontological distinction between uncreated and created. Only God—the three divine persons—is divine essentially. Only the persons of the Trinity are uncreated and eternal by fact of their nature. Human persons cannot become divine essentially because this would be a logical contradiction. What humans are in essence, by nature, is created and dependent. The divine energies are God himself insofar as he shares his uncreated nature with created persons, thus divinizing them. In this sense, the divinized person is always both created and uncreated, finite and infinite: created and finite by nature, uncreated and infinite by grace, by reason of union with God’s divinizing energies. The divinized person becomes all that God is except for identity in essence, which is to say, without ceasing to be created and finite.

In contrast, within the context of the doctrine of exaltation, there is no ontological divide or distinction between human and divine—divine and human do not refer to ontological categories. Instead, divine and human signify different levels of progression within a continuum. In other words, some uncreated intelligences have progressed to the point of godhood (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost), while other uncreated intelligences have not and are thus dependent on those who have already done so to attain godhood themselves (human persons). Thus, because humans and God already share a like essence, at some future time humans, as exalted beings, can become exactly as God now is.

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/papers/?paperID=7&chapterID=63

I’d say its like comparing apples to monkeys. Not even the same biological kingdom.

 

[Caprica]

“God became man so that man might become God.” - Saint Athanasius

This does not mean we become deities, rather, it means we share in the divine life of God for eternity.

“We become by grace what God is by nature.” - Saint Cyril of Alexandria

This is the same statement, but phrased differently. This is all that is meant by the statement from the catechism.

So you become by grace what God is by nature. Could you clarify what it means to become what God is?

 

[scipio337]

So you become by grace what God is by nature. Could you clarify what it means to become what God is?

See above. We never cease being created beings, and while we participate in the divine energies of God, we never participate in the divine essense.

 

[twopekinguys]

why not PM him such personal questions?

If he has already posted this information (being a former Catholic), then it isn’t really personal is it?

It also goes to his intent/purpose in the discussion, so, again, it wouldn’t be considered personal.

Also, since he has mentioned publically that he was Catholic, his level of catechisis in the faith is relevant to how deep of an explaination should be given.

 

[Todd520]

Hi Rebecca, you are interpreting the Catechism with same understanding as I interpret LDS belief.

TPG,

• I believe the Catechism says exactly what it means to say (revised less than 20 yrs ago)
• I believe there are still nuances of interpretation, as mentioned by other posters.
• I cannot understand why the same LDS statement is not allowed similar nuances of interpretation
• My other forum post was sharing this Catechism and was not rude or demeaning.
• Background - catholic school, alterboy, CYA etc. Never saw the Catechism growing up (love it!)

I opened a seperate thread because my question was quickly buried by long posts, The topic is important/informative and deserving of a seperate post.

 

[Caprica]

See above. We never cease being created beings, and while we participate in the divine energies of God, we never participate in the divine essense.

Yes, I understand that due to creatio ex nihilo, you believe that you are ontologically different from God, and that we are contingent beings by nature while God is not contingent by nature.

My question is, what does it mean to become what God is? What does it mean to have the “uncreated divine energies”? What is that referring to, and what does that “do”, characteristically, to the person?

Thanks.

 

[twopekinguys]

Hi Rebecca, you are interpreting the Catechism with same understanding as I interpret LDS belief.

TPG,

• I believe the Catechism says exactly what it means to say (revised less than 20 yrs ago)
• I believe there are still nuances of interpretation, as mentioned by other posters.
• I cannot understand why the same LDS statement is not allowed similar nuances of interpretation
• My other forum post was sharing this Catechism and was not rude or demeaning.
• Background - catholic school, alterboy, CYA etc. Never saw the Catechism growing up (love it!)

I opened a seperate thread because my question was quickly buried by long posts, The topic is important/informative and deserving of a seperate post.

I never said your other post was rude, and I don’t believe I implied it, so I am not sure why you would bring that into this.

In finding out your background with regard to the faith, it makes it easier for posters to tailor their answers to your understanding.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi Rebecca, you are interpreting the Catechism with same understanding as I interpret LDS belief.

Then you do not understand LDS teaching. LDS believe that God and humans are of the same nature. They believe a human is a god and a god is a human. There is only a difference of degree.

They read “man was made in the image of God” and believe it can be reversed to mean “God is in the image of man”. Which, is not what it says. Also, in the context of scripture, in its entirety, man is a creation, and has a Creator. God does not.

LDS believe their god was created the same as themselves, by another god. An infinite regression of gods. To the point where the question becomes, for a Catholic (and all Christians), who or what was the unmoved mover that began this chain of gods?

 

[smad0142]

Todd, my friend, I hope I can give you an answer without some of the forcefullness of some of the other commentors on Mormon issues.

Catholics believe: That through Grace a soul may be able to be immersed into the Mystery of the Trinity, sharing fully in the Heart of Life of the Trinity, i.e. we will share in the Divine Nature.

Mormons appear to believe: We will become our own gods. We will share in and also exercise the divine nature, for example Mormons believe that one day they can sire spirit children. The fact that Mormons believe humans can exercise the divine nature is dramatically different from the Catholic understanding.

 

[LongJourney]

who or what was the unmoved mover that began this chain of gods?

Related to this is the LDS teaching that God formed the Earth out of (I interpret here) bits and pieces of dead planets.(This, I assume, explains dinosaur fossils)

So, then, who was the original Creator?

 

[Stephen168]

I have been repeatedly told in CAF that LDS are not Christian because we presume to become gods/God/like god after we die.

I thought Mormons were not Christian because they don’t worship the Christian God

 

[Todd520]

I never said your other post was rude, and I don’t believe I implied it, so I am not sure why you would bring that into this.

In finding out your background with regard to the faith, it makes it easier for posters to tailor their answers to your understanding.

My apologies, it was SirThomasMore who called me “horribly dishonest”

I posted on another forum because I think, if more LDS understand what Catholics believe, the level of discussion can migrate towards a real exchange of info, or end peacefully.

I’m tired of these threads that are endless he said/ she said ping pong matches. They are ego strokers and not informative.

 

[Caprica]

Todd, my friend, I hope I can give you an answer without some of the forcefullness of some of the other commentors on Mormon issues.

Catholics believe: That through Grace a soul may be able to be immersed into the Mystery of the Trinity, sharing fully in the Heart of Life of the Trinity, i.e. we will share in the Divine Nature.

Mormons appear to believe: We will become our own gods. We will share in and also exercise the divine nature, for example Mormons believe that one day they can sire spirit children. The fact that Mormons believe humans can exercise the divine nature is dramatically different from the Catholic understanding.

What does it mean to “[share] fully in the Heart of Life of the Trinity, i.e. we will share in the Divine Nature.”? What do you believe happens to us when we do that?

 

[scipio337]

My question is, what does it mean to become what God is? What does it mean to have the “uncreated divine energies”? What is that referring to, and what does that “do”, characteristically, to the person?

Thanks.

Quite simply, it means we share in the Glory of God, not become one.

orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis

Read the full Maxwell article. As it points out, the differences begin with who or what God is, in the first place.