Catholic Spending

[manualman]

This is not a new question. An interesting thing happens when you look into the long history of the question itself. It is NOT generally a question asked by the poor, needy, faithful believers. It is almost always a question asked by those from a culture in which the faith is generally lukewarm and asked by people who seek to silence their conscience about their own personal stingy-ness.

People who love God above all else naturally gravitate towards expressing that love by adorning their churches with a standard of wealth beyond their own. This is a way in which we express our faith and our love for God. We build places that remind us of beauty, majesty, permanence, solidity, durability because these are attributes of the God we worship and we wish to honor Him in that worship.

When we build places of ‘worship’ that reek of cheapness and chintzy utility, we send God the physical message that He is unworthy of anything else. Don’t be fooled, I’m not saying GOD needs these things, but WE do. How we pray becomes what we believe (lex orendi, lex credendi, IIRC. My latin is atrocious). When our liturgy contains the physical message that God is less worthy of our resources than our kitchen and bathroom remodeling projects, then this message becomes what is in our hearts. When our liturgy contains the physical message that God is the center of our lives and we will give him the BEST of what we have, then THAT is what will penetrate our hearts.

The OP post seems to contain almost an element of Manicheanism in which only the spiritual is good and material things are suspect at best, evil at worst. This is not catholic. Catholicism sees all of creation as pointing God’s glory and does not discourage us from using that which is rich, noble, and worthy as expressions of our faith.

Yes, God can be worshipped faithfully in a mud brick chapel with thatched roof. Seen it, was a glorious thing. But that mud brick chapel STILL represented a major sacrifice for the thrid world villagers who put their labor and meager resources into making it. When wealthy urbanites leave their comfortable and well appointed home, drive their air conditioned cars, park in the dedicated church parking lot and proceed to complain that the vestments, altar and chalice are frivolous expenses, there IS a problem. And it’s not with the church.

 

[Kay_Cee]

But does God actually care? If he is an all powerful, all knowing, all kind being why would he care? Cant you simply show your respect for him inside a modest establishment and help out others more?

Goodness, God cared enough to have His Son dwell in the pure womb of a sinless Virgin.

So yeah, He cares where His Son dwells.

The question now is, don’t you?

I mean all of these arguments are about honoring God more, what if I built a giant thing out of gold saying glory to god and mounted it in my backyard would that make God honor me more? If he will be happy with a repsectful offering then the churches need not be lavish, if he is not, then my above scenerio is what I shoud be saving for since cares.

Please show me where Jesus said that, in memory of Him, we should build a giant thing out of gold in our backyards. I can show you in the Bible where He said we should consecrate the Eucharist.

You don’t seem to understand that churches should be beautiful because they house the Eucharist.

 

[Chaulmers]

Spiritually no, a large opulent house of worship is not necessary for belief. For the final great temple of God is the Eucharist, as Christ said in the Book of John when He challenged the Israelites to destroy the temple and He would rebuild it in three days. Of course Christ risen on the third day. The temple of God is not in a building but in Christ.

However culturally, we have opulent temples to remind people who Christ was. Whether we wish or not, we live in a material world. When you enter a city or village, what do you think should be the focal point of that village?

A forum?
A market?
A castle?
A university?

or a Church?

Culturally we build them because humans are visual creatures and placing a church at the center of it, and making it the tallest and grandest building helps serve to remind people what the purpose of life is…seeking the Kingdom of God.

It reminds me of the last line of a Georgian film called Repentance (Monanieba) in which an elderly woman asked a woman —who suffered along with her family under the brutal regime of Valram Aravidze— if ‘Valram Street led to the church.’ When the woman answered “No.” the old woman replied “What good is a road if it doesn’t lead to a church?”

Much like could be said of society, what good is society, if it doesn’t place its emphasis on its church?

So money needs to be spent on it over feeding people and providing housing? Whether or not you think the Church does enough charitable work there is always room for more.

I see a lavish building I think “wow how much did that cost”?. I do not see any salvation armies(charitable) as massive gold/marble things. You can still acomplish all of your goals while maintaing a modeest church.

 

[Chaulmers]

Focus on him first spiritualy. Why do we need to focus on him physically so much to the point of over indulgence?

 

[Chaulmers]

Goodness, God cared enough to have His Son dwell in the pure womb of a sinless Virgin.

So yeah, He cares where His Son dwells.

The question now is, don’t you?

Please show me where Jesus said that, in memory of Him, we should build a giant thing out of gold in our backyards. I can show you in the Bible where He said we should consecrate the Eucharist.

You don’t seem to understand that churches should be beautiful because they house the Eucharist.

Beauties are in the eye of the beholder. Gym, wood cupboard, decent seating and a lot more lives saved through charitable efforts.

 

[Chaulmers]

This is not a new question. An interesting thing happens when you look into the long history of the question itself. It is NOT generally a question asked by the poor, needy, faithful believers. It is almost always a question asked by those from a culture in which the faith is generally lukewarm and asked by people who seek to silence their conscience about their own personal stingy-ness.

People who love God above all else naturally gravitate towards expressing that love by adorning their churches with a standard of wealth beyond their own. This is a way in which we express our faith and our love for God. We build places that remind us of beauty, majesty, permanence, solidity, durability because these are attributes of the God we worship and we wish to honor Him in that worship.

When we build places of ‘worship’ that reek of cheapness and chintzy utility, we send God the physical message that He is unworthy of anything else. Don’t be fooled, I’m not saying GOD needs these things, but WE do. How we pray becomes what we believe (lex orendi, lex credendi, IIRC. My latin is atrocious). When our liturgy contains the physical message that God is less worthy of our resources than our kitchen and bathroom remodeling projects, then this message becomes what is in our hearts. When our liturgy contains the physical message that God is the center of our lives and we will give him the BEST of what we have, then THAT is what will penetrate our hearts.

The OP post seems to contain almost an element of Manicheanism in which only the spiritual is good and material things are suspect at best, evil at worst. This is not catholic. Catholicism sees all of creation as pointing God’s glory and does not discourage us from using that which is rich, noble, and worthy as expressions of our faith.

Yes, God can be worshipped faithfully in a mud brick chapel with thatched roof. Seen it, was a glorious thing. But that mud brick chapel STILL represented a major sacrifice for the thrid world villagers who put their labor and meager resources into making it. When wealthy urbanites leave their comfortable and well appointed home, drive their air conditioned cars, park in the dedicated church parking lot and proceed to complain that the vestments, altar and chalice are frivolous expenses, there IS a problem. And it’s not with the church.

Right so they want to express that with material objects, so me buying a giant gold thing saying “Worship the Lord!!!”

I feel like you did not read my previous posts, I have addressed all of this.

Essentially the answers I am receiving are “It HAS to be this way because we need it to be” if so I dont want them in a Church if they need that. Express through actions, not overindulgence. Give shelter to those who need it etc.

 

[Chaulmers]

Umm okay?

 

[austenbosten]

So money needs to be spent on it over feeding people and providing housing? Whether or not you think the Church does enough charitable work there is always room for more.

I see a lavish building I think “wow how much did that cost”?. I do not see any salvation armies(charitable) as massive gold/marble things. You can still acomplish all of your goals while maintaing a modeest church.

What is modest? What makes a church modest and humble?

One thing I’ve noticed is you are too focused on the material. I see humble churches with arrogant pastors and congregations who believe you have to do something for them in order to receive…yet they pride on their humility because they preach out of a shack instead of the hypocritical Catholics who praise a materially poor Jesus while wrapped in linen preaching on a golden altar.

However look at how those hypocritical, lavish, idolatrous Catholics churches live. They donate much to the poor and do a lot of good.

I think you need to be worried more about a church fulfilling its mission of bringing the Word to people and giving alms to the needy, than whether or not it’s a big-rich church.

 

[Chaulmers]

Yep you are right! I want them to focus more on giving to the people! There is room for more to be done, especially when they spend so much on other things.

 

[austenbosten]

Yep you are right! I want them to focus more on giving to the people! There is room for more to be done, especially when they spend so much on other things.

Okie dokie…maybe it’s that darn Lutheran upbringing I had, but let’s go to Scripture.

[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 35:4-10[/BIBLEDRB]

Re-read Exodus Chapters 35-40 and count how many times you see gold and silver there.

Are you ready to question God’s opulence?

but let us go to what Christ. Our Lord and Savior said:

[BIBLEDRB]John 12:3-8[/BIBLEDRB]

I think Jesus has answered your question.

Not to sound a jerk, please don’t take it this way, but have you sold all your goods to give to the poor? Have you made the commitment to not buy new things, to live in a smaller apartment, so you could give more to the poor?

I hope these few of several verses from the Bible answers your questions my friend.

 

[manualman]

Right so they want to express that with material objects, so me buying a giant gold thing saying “Worship the Lord!!!”

I feel like you did not read my previous posts, I have addressed all of this.

Essentially the answers I am receiving are “It HAS to be this way because we need it to be” if so I dont want them in a Church if they need that. Express through actions, not overindulgence. Give shelter to those who need it etc.

Nope, it is you who have created an artificial competition between the Corporeal Works of Mercy and the Spiritual ones. The rest of us are just pointing you back in the right direction of recognizing that BOTH are crucial. You refuse to hear it, but the fact remains that when you live a life in which you treat yourself to luxuries, but relegate the worship of God to cheap buildings and materials you display the priorities of your heart for all to see.

There are those who are called to utter simplicity and poverty for the glory of God. Go find some people who have answered that call. Go talk to some of Mother Theresa’s nuns (heck, any nun/sister not in an LCWR order). These are people who have renounced ALL earthly possessions for the service of Christ. Ask them if they object to gold chalices and ornate monstrances. They’ll look at you funny. Your argument will make no sense to them. Try it and see. I have. I once made your criticism to a friend whose church had just done a major remodeling. I’ve since learned the error of my ways. Your worship of God with your tongue will fall flat if you prove with your life that you don’t put Him before yourself. If you live in comfort while you demand that God be worshipped in iconoclastic environs, you’ve made an idol of wealth.

Again, it’s not that GOD “needs” these things. It’s that if WE don’t honor Him greater than we do ourselves, then we probably have made an idol of money. It’s all well and good about giving more to the poor. But a funny thing is true. Most who refuse to give God the best of themselves for worship don’t do it in christian service either. It’s both/and or neither/nor with little in between.

 

[Chaulmers]

Nope, it is you who have created an artificial competition between the Corporeal Works of Mercy and the Spiritual ones. The rest of us are just pointing you back in the right direction of recognizing that BOTH are crucial. You refuse to hear it, but the fact remains that when you live a life in which you treat yourself to luxuries, but relegate the worship of God to cheap buildings and materials you display the priorities of your heart for all to see.

There are those who are called to utter simplicity and poverty for the glory of God. Go find some people who have answered that call. Go talk to some of Mother Theresa’s nuns (heck, any nun/sister not in an LCWR order). These are people who have renounced ALL earthly possessions for the service of Christ. Ask them if they object to gold chalices and ornate monstrances. They’ll look at you funny. Your argument will make no sense to them. Try it and see. I have. I once made your criticism to a friend whose church had just done a major remodeling. I’ve since learned the error of my ways. Your worship of God with your tongue will fall flat if you prove with your life that you don’t put Him before yourself. If you live in comfort while you demand that God be worshipped in iconoclastic environs, you’ve made an idol of wealth.

Again, it’s not that GOD “needs” these things. It’s that if WE don’t honor Him greater than we do ourselves, then we probably have made an idol of money. It’s all well and good about giving more to the poor. But a funny thing is true. Most who refuse to give God the best of themselves for worship don’t do it in christian service either. It’s both/and or neither/nor with little in between.

So essentially what is being said is church should reflect society, if that society is well off in order to not place too much of an important on what we own we should donate to the church more so it can act like a physical symbol?

Even if I abandoned everything the church would still have more. Heck if everyone here abanded everything the church would still have more.

I still think that time/good deeds will go further to us worshipping and wont have money or others take precedence over the church

 

[Chaulmers]

So the answer is what I stated in the previous post…which makes no sense.

I did not realize the Catholic Church is about so vainily glorifying God instead of helping their fellow man. This is truly sad that is the answer I have received.

 

[fred_conty]

In every catholic church thruout the world, the blessed sacrament is present, which means that Jesus himself personnally is present. Isnt’ he worth all the very best and finest that is in the world, since he is in every catholic church?

The only thing we need to apoligize for is that it isn’t better and more worthy of him for he deserves the very best we have.

His catholic churchs are quite different from all other buildings, for he is there. And in the Mass he is again bringing the tears of his cries to the Father on our behalf.

A sacramental miracle to ponder over.

 

[Chaulmers]

In every catholic church thruout the world, the blessed sacrament is present, which means that Jesus himself personnally is present. Isnt’ he worth all the very best and finest that is in the world, since he is in every catholic church?

The only thing we need to apoligize for is that it isn’t better and more worthy of him for he deserves the very best we have.

His catholic churchs are quite different from all other buildings, for he is there. And in the Mass he is again bringing the tears of his cries to the Father on our behalf.

A sacramental miracle to ponder over.

But he doesnt care…

 

[Chaulmers]

Yes it is an instead, they are spending it on themselves so they can be like “see God look at us”. Yes it is charitable, but there is room for more growth given the immense cost of large extravagant churches.

Let me use an analogy. You have a son, you love your son.

He wants to get you a birthday present, he is 10 years old but somehow has 500 dollars. He opts to make you something, say an arrowhead from a piece of wood with a string. Yea it is not a really amazing necklace that you can wear out in public and show off, but would you not still be happy and pleased?

 

[austenbosten]

So the answer is what I stated in the previous post…which makes no sense.

I did not realize the Catholic Church is about so vainily glorifying God instead of helping their fellow man. This is truly sad that is the answer I have received.

Read the Bible, your answers are there.

Exodus 35:4 to Exodus 40
Numbers 18:25-31
Numbers 31:50-55
1 Kings 6:8
1 Kings 15:15
John 12:3-8
Revelation 21:9-27
Haggai 2:6-9
Ephesians 5:25-27

A man by the name of Bob Stanley helped me find these verses. He also had this to say about church detractors.

Now, let us suppose that the Catholic Church had done from the beginning what the detractors charge that the Church should have done. Where would we be today?

Would the poor still be with us?
Yes! Have you already forgotten John 12:8?

---

Where would the priceless art treasures be today?***
They would either be, (1) lost forever, or would be, (2) stored in warehouses, or would be, (3) in the homes of the very rich. In all three scenarios, they would be an incalculable loss to the great mass of humanity.

What would the Catholic Church look like today?
It would look like how many non-Catholic churches look today. There would be no beautiful stained glass, no magnificent art forms, no precious metals or jewels, and nothing to distinguish it as being the House of GOD, as compared to a dull, drab meeting hall. It would not at all resemble the beautiful Heavenly Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb, as described by Saint John.
And, besides all of the lack of beauty and the drabness of our churches, the poor will still always be with us as mentioned before.
So what would have been gained?
What would have been lost?

If you feel so angered towards the church, perhaps you should sell all of your belongings and give to the poor. I’m not trying to be smug, but people on here did offer decent answers and you still seem to think there is something wrong with it.

 

[Chaulmers]

He commands us to spend money on him??? Must have missed that. That doesnt sound like a really nice thing to do. I never said I know the mind of God, but it is a simple analogy that defeats your argument. Although there is no counter argument for the “well that is His will!”

Austen I will read the bible verses when I get home as I am at work and it requires more attention to detail than I am capable of at the present time.

 

[austenbosten]

He commands us to spend money on him??? Must have missed that. That doesnt sound like a really nice thing to do. I never said I know the mind of God, but it is a simple analogy that defeats your argument. Although there is no counter argument for the “well that is His will!”

Austen I will read the bible verses when I get home as I am at work and it requires more attention to detail than I am capable of at the present time.

Gasp! trolling the Catholic Forums when you should be working…tsk tsk:tsktsk:

Well I hope you have a good final hours of work and a safe commute home so you can read the scripture verses.

 

[tabycat]

Maybe the Isrealites should have disobayed God and put no gold, silver or gems on and in the Ark and the Temple. :ehh: I don’t think so!