Catholic taking Lutheran Educ. class w/wife

[Lampo]

This is from a thread in a different sub-forum. I should have started it in this forum. Could someone please help me with the questions/comments from the Lutheran pastor? Here is the most recent:

Today in class the Lutheran pastor said that people can go to hell with their sins forgiven because Jesus died for everyone. He said that people go to hell because they reject Jesus’ gift of dying on the cross.

The Pastor also asked how for back the Catholic belief of the Immaculate Conception goes. Lutherans believe Mary was a sinner.

He also said that Jesus was baptized because He did everything we as humans go through.

Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[NotWorthy]

You can tell him that the Catholic belief in the Immaculate Conception goes back at least to AD 235 if not earlier.

“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.”
Hippolytus,Orat. Inillud, Dominus pascit me(ante A.D. 235),in ULL,94

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“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.”
Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244),in ULL,94

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• “Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.”*
  Ephraim,Hymns on the Nativity,15:23(A.D. 370),in NPNF2,XIII:254

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• “Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.”*
  "Ephraem,Nisibene Hymns,27:8(A.D. 370),in THEO,132

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• “Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.”*
  Ambrose,Sermon 22:30(A.D. 388),in JUR,II:166

 

[NotWorthy]

Matthew 3:15 tells us why Jesus needed to be baptized:
*** Jesus said to him in reply, “Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed him.***

Jesus did have to go through things as a human, but since John’s Baptism was not Sacramental, I don’t think that this would apply to something that Jesus “had to do”.

 

[NotWorthy]

All of our sins are a rejection of Jesus. When I find myself faced with mortal sin, I imagine Jesus on the Cross saying, “My John, My John, why have you forsaken me”.

 

[Corinne]

Hi Lampo,

I am a convert to the Catholic faith. I used to be a Protestant, so I know how difficult some of those questions can be. Stand firm in your faith – you have the truth in the Catholic Church. I read your other post, and commend you for making an effort to get every question answered. As others suggested, I think that “auditing” an RCIA program would also help greatly. I am sponsoring an Inquirer through RCIA right now, and I find that I am benefiting a lot just from being around, and learning how to formulate answers to the difficult questions. Also, arm yourself with a copy of the catechism, if you haven’t already, and PRAY! (Here’s an online Catechism: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm) The devil would love to seperate you from the fullness of the Catholic Church and Christ in the Eucharist.

About the comment about going to hell with sins forgiven… We as Catholics believe that in order to enter heaven, your soul must be in a state of grace, since sin naturally separates us from God. The saints in heaven are all in a state of grace. Those who do not enter heaven are not in a state of grace. It may be helpful to read about venial and mortal sin, reconciliation, and grace in the Catechism.

The Catholic belief in the Immaculate Conception goes back to the apostles. It is a Catholic Tradition, and part of the pillar of our faith. All Catholic doctrine go back to Christ and the apostles, and were believed by our early Church fathers. It is impossible to add or remove from that founding doctrine of our faith through sacred Scripture and sacred Tradition. The Lutheran pastor was probably refering to when the doctrine was officially declared infallibly by the Church. That was in 1854, but Pope Pius IX. Sometimes, doctrine is not declared until a later date because it wasn’t anything that anyone questioned. For hundreds and hundreds of years, Catholic church fathers taught the immaculate conception and people had no problem with it. Not until it started to be questioned did the pope need to declare it as doctrine and part of our Catholic Tradition. This link might be useful (and this site has all kinds of great answers, so search around it a little for answers to any of your other questions): cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=100.

As far as Jesus’ baptism, I don’t know Christ’s reason for baptism enough to explain it, but here’s a link to a relevant section in the catechism: scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#II

Peace and prayers,

Corinne

 

[Lampo]

The pastor also wanted to know if Mary’s parents were born without sin and remained sinless. He wanted to know if Mary’s IC was a family trait. I told him no. It’s a miracle. Was I correct?

 

[Jabronie]

Lampo,

Just for the sake of courtesy, I just wanted to say that I hope you’re not turning your wife’s Lutheran Ed. class into a Catholic vs. Lutheran debate class. The other people there might not want to hear it and could even be let with a sour taste about Catholics if you come off too strongly.

I think it’s great that you’re clearing up any Catholic teaching that this pastor is unclear of, but I just hope you’re not taking it too far. Some of the stuff might need to be discussed with the pastor after class.

The reason I post this also is because my girlfriend is Lutheran also, and I’m pretty sure that if I attended one of her classes, I’d end up turning it into some heated debate. Actually that sounds kind of fun…

Good luck & God bless!

 

[Lampo]

Lampo,

Just for the sake of courtesy, I just wanted to say that I hope you’re not turning your wife’s Lutheran Ed. class into a Catholic vs. Lutheran debate class. The other people there might not want to hear it and could even be let with a sour taste about Catholics if you come off too strongly.

I think it’s great that you’re clearing up any Catholic teaching that this pastor is unclear of, but I just hope you’re not taking it too far. Some of the stuff might need to be discussed with the pastor after class.

The reason I post this also is because my girlfriend is Lutheran also, and I’m pretty sure that if I attended one of her classes, I’d end up turning it into some heated debate. Actually that sounds kind of fun…

Good luck & God bless!

No, no, not at all. This was a question my wife asked me vicareously for the pastor. During class, I only answer questions if asked. I don’t turn it into a debate.

 

[John_Henry]

The Pastor also asked how for back the Catholic belief of the Immaculate Conception goes. Lutherans believe Mary was a sinner.

Tell him it goes at least as far back as Luther. From here:

Probably the most astonishing Marian belief of Luther is his acceptance of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, which wasn’t even definitively proclaimed as dogma by the Catholic Church until 1854. Concerning this question there is some dispute, over the technical aspects of medieval theories of conception and the soul, and whether or not Luther later changed his mind. Even some eminent Lutheran scholars, however, such as Arthur Carl Piepkorn (1907-73) of Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, maintain his unswerving acceptance of the doctrine. Luther’s words follow:
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.
(Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” December ?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., *Luther, *authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 58)

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522)

 

[mtr01]

The pastor also wanted to know if Mary’s parents were born without sin and remained sinless. He wanted to know if Mary’s IC was a family trait. I told him no. It’s a miracle. Was I correct?

Yes. Our Lady was given a special gift of God’s Grace. The merits of Our Lord’s sacrifice were applied to her (and her alone) outside of time, at the moment of her conception.

 

[Lillith]

The pastor also wanted to know if Mary’s parents were born without sin and remained sinless. He wanted to know if Mary’s IC was a family trait. I told him no. It’s a miracle. Was I correct?

No…Mary’s parents were not sinless, you were right. It was a miracle! Here is my understanding of how this occured.

Mary was saved from sinfulness through the cross, before the crucifiction occurred in time. Jesus is God, and is not bound to our time constaints. He is in the past present and future, and in Mary’s particular instance, Jesus saved her from the pit that is sin before she fell in. It was fitting to do so and an act of Love, and it is why the Angel spoke the words Hail full of Grace. Grace saves us. Grace gives us the power to be Holy and righteous and without sin. therefore, for a person to be full fo Grace is both to be saved and to be completely exceptionally holy. To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin.

I think the perfect angle to approach the Mary questions with a Lutheran is to research what Luther believed about Mary. I am fairly certain that I remember reading some years ago that Luther’s understanding of the Virgin Mary was intact with the Catholic teaching. It might be worthwhile to look up quotes that Luther made regarding Mary (he was very much a fan of hers) and ask when and how the Lutheran Church dropped this teaching.