N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
Unfortunately some people are so taken with the forest that they fail to distinguish between the oaks and the pines. They’re missing out.
- Status
V
VeritasLuxMea
Guest
I’m not saying your definition is wrong, but what I am saying is that what you have given me is not even a definition. I don’t care how you use the word, that’s up to you, but if you don’t have a definition for it then I don’t know what you’re talking about.
So again, what do you mean by faith?
There aren’t widely condemned Catholic interpretations? Hehe, not mocking, but that was the implication.
Whatever they are, I apparently don’t get it. So, feel free to school me.
In this sense: historically, there is not enough of a basis for it. I do not consider it important to my faith in Christ. Do you?
But God can do this in a natural way. To resurrect someone, he can make their heart beat again. To change water into wine, he can alter the particles in the water. I don’t understand why he would use a method that breaks his own laws of the universe, nor why he should need to.
I’m not asking why he did these things, but why he would have to do them in a supernatural way.
Which is thousands of years after the dawn of man.
Really? By who?
I spend on average an hour each day reading the Bible. I do read bits and pieces of other works, of course, but the Bible for now is a daunting task by itself!
Who? Not trying to put you on the defensive, but if you’re correct certainly I would be right to be curious, yes?
I have witnessed some bizarre things. I have not witnessed a formal exorcism conducted by a RC Priest, no. I did know an exorcist, though, at least my family knew him - one of (maybe the only) guy they consulted for the movie The Exorcist.
That sounds like a fascinating thing to look into and I shall!
But as you no doubt are aware, the Church now requires psychological evaluations before an exorcism is conducted and such cases that do require exorcism in the Church’s view are extremely, extremely rare.
The Church is not nearly as keen on exorcisms as you appear to be. I’m pointing that out not as a dig, but it is the truth, isn’t it?
With that in mind, where have all the demons gone? Are they just bored with possessions at this point? Have almost all of them been killed off? These are questions that need to be asked.
Hey, two can play that game!
Water, fire, air and dirt, bleepin’ magnets, how do they work? There’s magic everywhere in this bleep. :whackadoo:
LOLOLOL… sorry I had to. I just had to.
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
“So again, what do you mean by faith?”
I think I will go with… man’s experience of God, inseparable from reason.
“There aren’t widely condemned Catholic interpretations? Hehe, not mocking, but that was the implication.”
Maybe they started out Catholic, but if it is condemned it is no longer so.
“In this sense: historically, there is not enough of a basis for it. I do not consider it important to my faith in Christ. Do you?”
There is nothing in the Bible that isn’t important. If something appears unimportant it simply means that we don’t understand it well enough.
Of course, if you reject as unimportant any passage which conflicts with your materialistic interpretation of faith, then I understand entirely. Protestants do the same with regards to their own doctrinal innovations.
“But God can do this in a natural way. To resurrect someone, he can make their heart beat again. To change water into wine, he can alter the particles in the water. I don’t understand why he would use a method that breaks his own laws of the universe, nor why he should need to.”
So your explanation of, for instance, Jesus turning the water into wine is that some water molecules were transmuted into alcohol, etc.? As opposed to what, exactly? The fact remains that the process cannot occur on its own. That is the miracle. Something which is impossible in nature occurs through God’s intervention. To resurrect someone, He makes their heart beat again… well again, as opposed to what? The person living without a heartbeat?
A miracle is God’s intervention in the world, and it accomplishes things that are not possible in nature, including turning water into wine, raising the dead, bilocating, and transubstantiation. You’re talking about what happens to the molecules and atoms and you’re not stopping to ask “why” or “how”. Of course it breaks the laws of the universe. Those things don’t just happen. In many cases they simply cannot just happen. The point of a miracle is that it’s not natural. If we could explain every miracle by science, we’d suddenly be left with no miracles. Essentially your philosophy excludes miracles from the Christian worldview, in opposition to the Church and Christ Himself, as well as the prophets and patriarchs before Him.
"Which is thousands of years after the dawn of man. "
The point being what, exactly?
“Really? By who?”
No idea. I’m a finance major, not a religious archaeologist.
“Who? Not trying to put you on the defensive, but if you’re correct certainly I would be right to be curious, yes?”
Who uses magic? The Witch of Endor, to start. Luckily I personally don’t know any witches. However I have read enough on the topic that there is no doubt in my mind as to its reality. Again I will refer you to Fr. Amorth. He has seen first hand the effects of malefices on innocent individuals.
Today is your lucky day; I will quote a story he told which has stuck in my mind. This is a lot of work on my part because his books are not online. It is actually a story told to him by a Father Christian Curty, OFM, who is an exorcist priest in Avignon. The story is reproduced here word for word: (in my next post, because this is much too long)
I think I will go with… man’s experience of God, inseparable from reason.
“There aren’t widely condemned Catholic interpretations? Hehe, not mocking, but that was the implication.”
Maybe they started out Catholic, but if it is condemned it is no longer so.
“In this sense: historically, there is not enough of a basis for it. I do not consider it important to my faith in Christ. Do you?”
There is nothing in the Bible that isn’t important. If something appears unimportant it simply means that we don’t understand it well enough.
Of course, if you reject as unimportant any passage which conflicts with your materialistic interpretation of faith, then I understand entirely. Protestants do the same with regards to their own doctrinal innovations.
“But God can do this in a natural way. To resurrect someone, he can make their heart beat again. To change water into wine, he can alter the particles in the water. I don’t understand why he would use a method that breaks his own laws of the universe, nor why he should need to.”
So your explanation of, for instance, Jesus turning the water into wine is that some water molecules were transmuted into alcohol, etc.? As opposed to what, exactly? The fact remains that the process cannot occur on its own. That is the miracle. Something which is impossible in nature occurs through God’s intervention. To resurrect someone, He makes their heart beat again… well again, as opposed to what? The person living without a heartbeat?
A miracle is God’s intervention in the world, and it accomplishes things that are not possible in nature, including turning water into wine, raising the dead, bilocating, and transubstantiation. You’re talking about what happens to the molecules and atoms and you’re not stopping to ask “why” or “how”. Of course it breaks the laws of the universe. Those things don’t just happen. In many cases they simply cannot just happen. The point of a miracle is that it’s not natural. If we could explain every miracle by science, we’d suddenly be left with no miracles. Essentially your philosophy excludes miracles from the Christian worldview, in opposition to the Church and Christ Himself, as well as the prophets and patriarchs before Him.
"Which is thousands of years after the dawn of man. "
The point being what, exactly?
“Really? By who?”
No idea. I’m a finance major, not a religious archaeologist.
“Who? Not trying to put you on the defensive, but if you’re correct certainly I would be right to be curious, yes?”
Who uses magic? The Witch of Endor, to start. Luckily I personally don’t know any witches. However I have read enough on the topic that there is no doubt in my mind as to its reality. Again I will refer you to Fr. Amorth. He has seen first hand the effects of malefices on innocent individuals.
Today is your lucky day; I will quote a story he told which has stuck in my mind. This is a lot of work on my part because his books are not online. It is actually a story told to him by a Father Christian Curty, OFM, who is an exorcist priest in Avignon. The story is reproduced here word for word: (in my next post, because this is much too long)
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
"I am an exorcist in a large French city, and I carry out my ministry under the protection of our Blessed Virgin Mother. In this capacity, I welcome many unfortunate individuals who are tormented and persecuted by Satan. I also hear many healing confessions, and the Lord grants me the joy of being witness to many liberations and cures, which I can only attribute to the merciful intervention of the Mother of God, through the exorcizing prayer of the Church, whose servant and instrument I am. I would like to share one of my many experiences, because it left me somewhat perplexed and because I believe that it might help others.
"One day, a strange, bizarre man came to my office. Everything about him was unusual: his appearance, his behavior, his extravagant clothes, and, most of all, a strong, repulsive, fetid smell! It was not the odor of vice [my note: I wonder if by this he means that he has charismatic abilities], but something I could not define- something between rotten eggs and sulfur. Immediately, I remembered a type of incense used in some blasphemous sects that, if used often enough, will eventually impregnate the clothes of the members.
"I felt that this individual, with his enigmatic and inquisitive behavior, intended to probe me, to guess my thoughts and feelings. Still, I had the impression it was not I whom he suspected, but someone else, because as he was talking, he would suddenly turn toward the door or lower his voice so that only I could hear him. But who? We were alone! At first, I thought that he was afraid of being seen or heart by some other penitent. Finally, I realized that he was afraid that a member of his sect- or even the despicable one to whom he had become enslaved- had followed him to spy on him.
"The man’s odd suit was ash-purple and strangely fashioned. Slowly and gradually I remembered that I had seen one like it in a magazine, in conjunction with a satanic mass, and I knew that I was seeing one of those liturgical vestments. Then he confirmed my intuition: “My master works mostly at night”, he said. That’s when I recalled that the magazine article I had seen was describing a liturgy in honor of Lucifer. My visitor told me that he practiced the occult and black magic. I had heard this confession from many others before him, when they were asking for deliverance. On the other hand, I could not understand the reason for this visit because, while he confessed to be tied to a satanic sect that practiced a certain ritual, he did not seem to want to break those ties.
"I kept thinking: Why did he come to see me? Surely he wants to be freed from Satan. Or maybe he wanted some consecrated Hosts, to be profaned that same evening? Did he hope to entice me into his sect? Did he simply wish to proclaim the victory of his master? In fact, he continued to speak of victory. The conversation was entirely one-sided; it seemed that he had a momentous message to deliver to me, a small priest of Christ.
"The following sentences are taken from notes that I started to jot down as soon as he began to speak: ‘My master has won over you! We are destroying your Church. My master holds the balance of power between nations and is overwhelming your Church. You will have to recognize it! Yes, Satan’s strength in the world, of which the Virgin herself warns in her apparitions, is evident. And it is just as evident that the three pillars (Eucharist, our Lady, Pope) are crumbling among you Christians. As a result, their faith is also crumbling. Paul VI and John Paul II spoke about it; but mostly it is the Book of Apocalypse that speaks about it, Satan’s battle. It is his hour; but it is also the hour of the Woman clothed with the sun.’
"When he interrupted his monologue and allowed me to speak, I pointed out that the victory of the demon is only temporary and illusory, of short duration. Jesus, with his Cross, defeated Satan at the exact time Satan believed he had won. And the same will be true for his Church: His current passion brings about the internal renewal that is preparing us for the new Pentecost, which has so often announced and is so eagerly desired. Satan is one of God’s many creatures; he was created good and, through his own fault, became perverted.
"‘No! Satan is equal to God’, my interlocutor quickly interjected. I realized that he did not want to speak about Jesus, only about God. He insisted: ‘The rebellion was a success!’ From time to time he would ask: ‘Are you not afraid of my master?’ He repeated this sentence often, and at first it sounded like a menace. Then I realized that he was voicing his own intimate fears, because Satan sees everything and hears everything. I replied that I was speaking to him in the name of Jesus, whose priest I am, and that nothing could happen to me without his consent. In addition, I was under the protection of the Virgin Mary, especially during exorcisms.
Continued below.
"One day, a strange, bizarre man came to my office. Everything about him was unusual: his appearance, his behavior, his extravagant clothes, and, most of all, a strong, repulsive, fetid smell! It was not the odor of vice [my note: I wonder if by this he means that he has charismatic abilities], but something I could not define- something between rotten eggs and sulfur. Immediately, I remembered a type of incense used in some blasphemous sects that, if used often enough, will eventually impregnate the clothes of the members.
"I felt that this individual, with his enigmatic and inquisitive behavior, intended to probe me, to guess my thoughts and feelings. Still, I had the impression it was not I whom he suspected, but someone else, because as he was talking, he would suddenly turn toward the door or lower his voice so that only I could hear him. But who? We were alone! At first, I thought that he was afraid of being seen or heart by some other penitent. Finally, I realized that he was afraid that a member of his sect- or even the despicable one to whom he had become enslaved- had followed him to spy on him.
"The man’s odd suit was ash-purple and strangely fashioned. Slowly and gradually I remembered that I had seen one like it in a magazine, in conjunction with a satanic mass, and I knew that I was seeing one of those liturgical vestments. Then he confirmed my intuition: “My master works mostly at night”, he said. That’s when I recalled that the magazine article I had seen was describing a liturgy in honor of Lucifer. My visitor told me that he practiced the occult and black magic. I had heard this confession from many others before him, when they were asking for deliverance. On the other hand, I could not understand the reason for this visit because, while he confessed to be tied to a satanic sect that practiced a certain ritual, he did not seem to want to break those ties.
"I kept thinking: Why did he come to see me? Surely he wants to be freed from Satan. Or maybe he wanted some consecrated Hosts, to be profaned that same evening? Did he hope to entice me into his sect? Did he simply wish to proclaim the victory of his master? In fact, he continued to speak of victory. The conversation was entirely one-sided; it seemed that he had a momentous message to deliver to me, a small priest of Christ.
"The following sentences are taken from notes that I started to jot down as soon as he began to speak: ‘My master has won over you! We are destroying your Church. My master holds the balance of power between nations and is overwhelming your Church. You will have to recognize it! Yes, Satan’s strength in the world, of which the Virgin herself warns in her apparitions, is evident. And it is just as evident that the three pillars (Eucharist, our Lady, Pope) are crumbling among you Christians. As a result, their faith is also crumbling. Paul VI and John Paul II spoke about it; but mostly it is the Book of Apocalypse that speaks about it, Satan’s battle. It is his hour; but it is also the hour of the Woman clothed with the sun.’
"When he interrupted his monologue and allowed me to speak, I pointed out that the victory of the demon is only temporary and illusory, of short duration. Jesus, with his Cross, defeated Satan at the exact time Satan believed he had won. And the same will be true for his Church: His current passion brings about the internal renewal that is preparing us for the new Pentecost, which has so often announced and is so eagerly desired. Satan is one of God’s many creatures; he was created good and, through his own fault, became perverted.
"‘No! Satan is equal to God’, my interlocutor quickly interjected. I realized that he did not want to speak about Jesus, only about God. He insisted: ‘The rebellion was a success!’ From time to time he would ask: ‘Are you not afraid of my master?’ He repeated this sentence often, and at first it sounded like a menace. Then I realized that he was voicing his own intimate fears, because Satan sees everything and hears everything. I replied that I was speaking to him in the name of Jesus, whose priest I am, and that nothing could happen to me without his consent. In addition, I was under the protection of the Virgin Mary, especially during exorcisms.
Continued below.
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
"He did not like it when I spoke about the Virgin Mary; he kept trying to change the subject and direct it toward his master, Satan. Then I reminded him of the protogospel: ‘I will put enmity between you and the woman’ (Gen 3:15). He accepted my speech but with his own, different interpretation: ‘Satan will bruise her heel (Gen 3:15) means that he will vanquish her.’ I replied ‘How can he vanquish her, if the Woman will bruise his head?’ Then I proceeded to explain the vision in the Apocalypse, about the Woman clothed with the sun, who fights with the red dragon and his defeat at Michael’s hand. I thought that even in Christ’s temptations, as narrated in the Gospels, the biblical texts present us with a battle. But every time I spoke of Mary, the direction of our conversation changed. Against that argument, he felt ill at ease, anguished, and, in the end, desperate.
"I told him that his master could not give his heart peace, much less happiness. Jesus, instead, brings peace and joy. He freed us precisely from the slavery of Satan, who, at most, could promise us money, power, and human glory. All the while, I was inwardly praying to the Virgin Mary, and I could see that my visitor was losing ground, falling behind. It was clear that all he felt for his master was fear. Then I spoke to him of the love of my Master, who died to save me and who forgave us everything. He spoke of his own blasphemy (his apostasy) with true desperation. Only later, as I reflected on the conversation, I thought of the Gospel reference to ‘sin against the Holy Spirit’; it seemed to me that this poor, pitiful individual was fully guilty of it.
"I invited him to repent, to leave his master; I told him that every night I begged God’s forgiveness for every sin, even blasphemy. The man seemed perturbed, torn between two feelings: hope and despair. I asked him if he would accept my prayers on his behalf. He seemed to assent, and I performed a brief, inward exorcism, to banish Satan; then I repeated it out loud. This was too much! He rose to flee, but first he hurriedly revealed his name: Peter. Then he ran out.
“I still ask myself about the meaning of that visit. Was that man an emissary sent by Satan to derail me? Did our Lady send him so that I would convert him, or at least pray for him? One thing is certain: This encounter made me touch with my own hand how difficult it is for someone ho has been a member of a satanic sect and who has consecrated himself to the demon to return to God.”
(An Exorcist, More Stories, pgs 149-153)
The Church does indeed currently require psychiatric assessment prior to an exorcism. This is purely disciplinary, and certainly a prudent step in discernment. Experience shows that possession is often accompanied by serious mental illness, one opening the victim up to the other. Either can be the catalyst. Of course we also know that some mental illnesses can imitate possession, though exceedingly poorly.
You think that exorcisms are rare. Two things: are you sure of that, and, if it’s true, does that mean they’re not needed? Or just that they’re not being done? The experienced exorcists whom I had read indicate that there is a severe shortage of exorcist priests, approaching crisis levels. They also indicate that the problem of demonic harassment is growing in our very dark world. Those who are active are very busy people indeed. Fr. Amorth sees thousands of people, and has performed countless exorcisms. Also interesting (though in my opinion a bit of a dry read) was The Rite: The Making of a Modern Exorcist, by Matt Baglio. He spent time in Rome, first at the exorcist conference, and then, if I recall correctly, he spent some time witnessing a Roman exorcist’s ministry.
Also as a side note, we should make make clear the fact that not all demonic problems require a solemn, formal exorcism. The formal exorcism is required in cases of full possession, but the prayers of exorcism may be prayed in a less formal setting for demonic problems which are not cases of full possession, which are far more common.
"I told him that his master could not give his heart peace, much less happiness. Jesus, instead, brings peace and joy. He freed us precisely from the slavery of Satan, who, at most, could promise us money, power, and human glory. All the while, I was inwardly praying to the Virgin Mary, and I could see that my visitor was losing ground, falling behind. It was clear that all he felt for his master was fear. Then I spoke to him of the love of my Master, who died to save me and who forgave us everything. He spoke of his own blasphemy (his apostasy) with true desperation. Only later, as I reflected on the conversation, I thought of the Gospel reference to ‘sin against the Holy Spirit’; it seemed to me that this poor, pitiful individual was fully guilty of it.
"I invited him to repent, to leave his master; I told him that every night I begged God’s forgiveness for every sin, even blasphemy. The man seemed perturbed, torn between two feelings: hope and despair. I asked him if he would accept my prayers on his behalf. He seemed to assent, and I performed a brief, inward exorcism, to banish Satan; then I repeated it out loud. This was too much! He rose to flee, but first he hurriedly revealed his name: Peter. Then he ran out.
“I still ask myself about the meaning of that visit. Was that man an emissary sent by Satan to derail me? Did our Lady send him so that I would convert him, or at least pray for him? One thing is certain: This encounter made me touch with my own hand how difficult it is for someone ho has been a member of a satanic sect and who has consecrated himself to the demon to return to God.”
(An Exorcist, More Stories, pgs 149-153)
The Church does indeed currently require psychiatric assessment prior to an exorcism. This is purely disciplinary, and certainly a prudent step in discernment. Experience shows that possession is often accompanied by serious mental illness, one opening the victim up to the other. Either can be the catalyst. Of course we also know that some mental illnesses can imitate possession, though exceedingly poorly.
You think that exorcisms are rare. Two things: are you sure of that, and, if it’s true, does that mean they’re not needed? Or just that they’re not being done? The experienced exorcists whom I had read indicate that there is a severe shortage of exorcist priests, approaching crisis levels. They also indicate that the problem of demonic harassment is growing in our very dark world. Those who are active are very busy people indeed. Fr. Amorth sees thousands of people, and has performed countless exorcisms. Also interesting (though in my opinion a bit of a dry read) was The Rite: The Making of a Modern Exorcist, by Matt Baglio. He spent time in Rome, first at the exorcist conference, and then, if I recall correctly, he spent some time witnessing a Roman exorcist’s ministry.
Also as a side note, we should make make clear the fact that not all demonic problems require a solemn, formal exorcism. The formal exorcism is required in cases of full possession, but the prayers of exorcism may be prayed in a less formal setting for demonic problems which are not cases of full possession, which are far more common.
E
ecedmondson
Guest
Greetings! I see this hasn’t been posted on in a while, but I think I’m going to try and contribute to the conversation anyways. I’m only going to touch on a few of the topics hoping that I can provide some clarity here. I hope I’m not intruding/getting on anyone’s nerves by this!
First, this issue of faith. Lux, you ask for a definition for “faith.” The Bible, actually, provides a very decent one: Hebrews 11:1 states that “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.” Faith then, is tied into hope because it provides foundation through hope. For more of an understanding of how that concept functions, I suggest the book “Saved in Hope” by Pope Benedict XVI.
That definition also states that faith is evidence of things not seen. This clause, at least to the modern mind, proposes a challenge to empirical ways of thinking by undermining them. As Pascal said “the heart has reasons which reason knows not.” Faith allows for the knowledge of truth to which uninformed reason cannot arrive.
Take, for example of this, the conversion story of St. Augustine. St. Augustine was trained as a rhetorician, which, for all of my opinions on the matter, is nothing more than a fake philosopher. St. Augustine, however, was a very intelligent man and exposed himself to the popular philosophical theories of the time.
His knowledge of platonist philosophy led him to the knowledge that God did exist; through his reason alone he was able to comprehend the existence of a higher being. But, it was faith that allowed to realize the truth of Christianity. Christianity requires belief in the divinity, resurrection and ascension of Christ - something that on a basic level is contrary to reason. In this way, it is both faith and reason that inform the soul with faith being the superior in coming to knowledge, or shall we say “evidence” of that which cannot be empirically understood. This way what the compendium of the Catechism states is proved correct, that is: “God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.” (CCC 35)
For more to the story of how St. Augustine converted by means of both faith and reason I suggest reading “The Confessions of St. Augustine.”
I’m going to continue on with the Augustian example for my next subject as well: the Bible. St. Augustine was not initially a Christian but a Manichean because upon reading the Bible some of the sayings made no sense to him. For example, Genesis says that we are “made in the image and likeness of God.” Does God the Father then have a human body as we do? To St. Augustine this was folly. (As a side note, adherents of the Mormon religion believe that God the Father does have a body of flesh and bone and that this is why we humans must be born - to gain a body. But that is another topic for another thread for another day…)
Back to the Bible. It was this literalistic understanding of the Bible that caused so much trouble for St. Augustine and should as well cause problems for us. The Bible is also literature and as such has many interpretations. In paragraphs 115-119 of the Catechism, the Church summarizes the senses in which Scripture may be interpreted. To summarize that, it is the Church’s position that both literal and spiritual senses of Scripture are needed for interpretation and proper understanding of Scripture.
For example, Lux, you mention how some of the of the things in the Bible seem incredulous. Indeed some of them were never meant for literal interpretation. However, a historical understanding of these things first and foremost inappropriately mysticizes the cultures from which the Biblical texts were produced and in doing such misrepresents said culture. It is the point, thus, of any sort of historico-critical or literary analysis of Biblical texts to reveal light on the cultures and ideologies as they supplement spiritual readings. Historical methods separated from faith do not provide for the proper interpretation of the Bible, or that of which the Catechism calls God the author. (CCC 105).
I suggest also reading the document issued by the Pontifical Biblical Institute called “The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church.” Very early on in the document it addresses the issue of the historico-critical method of interpretation in regards to the Bible.
First, this issue of faith. Lux, you ask for a definition for “faith.” The Bible, actually, provides a very decent one: Hebrews 11:1 states that “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.” Faith then, is tied into hope because it provides foundation through hope. For more of an understanding of how that concept functions, I suggest the book “Saved in Hope” by Pope Benedict XVI.
That definition also states that faith is evidence of things not seen. This clause, at least to the modern mind, proposes a challenge to empirical ways of thinking by undermining them. As Pascal said “the heart has reasons which reason knows not.” Faith allows for the knowledge of truth to which uninformed reason cannot arrive.
Take, for example of this, the conversion story of St. Augustine. St. Augustine was trained as a rhetorician, which, for all of my opinions on the matter, is nothing more than a fake philosopher. St. Augustine, however, was a very intelligent man and exposed himself to the popular philosophical theories of the time.
His knowledge of platonist philosophy led him to the knowledge that God did exist; through his reason alone he was able to comprehend the existence of a higher being. But, it was faith that allowed to realize the truth of Christianity. Christianity requires belief in the divinity, resurrection and ascension of Christ - something that on a basic level is contrary to reason. In this way, it is both faith and reason that inform the soul with faith being the superior in coming to knowledge, or shall we say “evidence” of that which cannot be empirically understood. This way what the compendium of the Catechism states is proved correct, that is: “God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.” (CCC 35)
For more to the story of how St. Augustine converted by means of both faith and reason I suggest reading “The Confessions of St. Augustine.”
I’m going to continue on with the Augustian example for my next subject as well: the Bible. St. Augustine was not initially a Christian but a Manichean because upon reading the Bible some of the sayings made no sense to him. For example, Genesis says that we are “made in the image and likeness of God.” Does God the Father then have a human body as we do? To St. Augustine this was folly. (As a side note, adherents of the Mormon religion believe that God the Father does have a body of flesh and bone and that this is why we humans must be born - to gain a body. But that is another topic for another thread for another day…)
Back to the Bible. It was this literalistic understanding of the Bible that caused so much trouble for St. Augustine and should as well cause problems for us. The Bible is also literature and as such has many interpretations. In paragraphs 115-119 of the Catechism, the Church summarizes the senses in which Scripture may be interpreted. To summarize that, it is the Church’s position that both literal and spiritual senses of Scripture are needed for interpretation and proper understanding of Scripture.
For example, Lux, you mention how some of the of the things in the Bible seem incredulous. Indeed some of them were never meant for literal interpretation. However, a historical understanding of these things first and foremost inappropriately mysticizes the cultures from which the Biblical texts were produced and in doing such misrepresents said culture. It is the point, thus, of any sort of historico-critical or literary analysis of Biblical texts to reveal light on the cultures and ideologies as they supplement spiritual readings. Historical methods separated from faith do not provide for the proper interpretation of the Bible, or that of which the Catechism calls God the author. (CCC 105).
I suggest also reading the document issued by the Pontifical Biblical Institute called “The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church.” Very early on in the document it addresses the issue of the historico-critical method of interpretation in regards to the Bible.
E
ecedmondson
Guest
Continued:
I believe that it is for reasons such as the above that Nihil put so much emphasis on interpreting the Bible as the Church does, or in the heart of Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is the web in which Sacred Scripture is supported as well as context in which the Scriptures can be properly understood.
Lux, you asked to be “schooled.” Believe me, that is by no means what I am trying to do here for I am hardly qualified. (Hopefully I will be years from now seeing as I’m an undergrad in religion and am going to move on to receive my Masters…we’ll see how that goes…) Besides, even if I were qualified I don’t think I would need to since there are so many other ways of analyzing Scripture in the light of the Church. If you wish to understand the Bible in it’s proper context, you must read the Church Father’s writings themselves or at least a proper compendium of them. If you wish to go the latter route, I know that Mike Aquilina has two excellent books (he may have more but these are the only two I’ve read) about the Early Church Fathers and practices: “The Mass of the Early Christians,” and, quite simply, “The Fathers of the Church.” Scott Hahn and the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology have also produced a “Catholic Bible Dictionary” which would prove to be very beneficial for such things.
As a last thought, I would like to point out that in the example of the water-to-wine miracle, at least scientifically, and by this I mean naturally as has been the topic of discussion here, water and wine are not made of the same molecule. As such, if any sort of pseudo-alchemy type reaction were to occur (personally I have never pictured Our Lord as an alchemist) the amount of moles for a given mass of water would be different than the amount of moles for a given mass of wine. There would be, then, a discrepancy of volume/mass after the transmutation. Of course, Our Lord, being God and all, could easily account for that by…well, a miracle. However, in my thinking, it’s much easier to acknowledge the entire event as a miracle to begin with, or just deny it and I’m not fond of that idea.
There is more that I could say about all of this as well as topics that I wanted to touch on but skipped over but I’m sure that I’ve had more than my fair share of things to say.
One last thing though and that is the subject of the paranormal - the reason I initially began to read this thread. Satan is very real and the cause of evil in this world. Do not confuse Satan’s power with God’s power. By this, I mean that they are not working in some sort of yin-yang type system. Evil is, essentially, the absence of God. Why is Satan alive even if God hates all evil? Because Satan, as a fallen angel, is part of God’s creation, which He loves and intended to be perfect, even if Satan is the lowest part of this. St. Augustine talks about this also in his “Confessions” and St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica. (He might in the shorter summa as well, though I’m not sure…)
Anyways, some good resources about paranormal things and demons that haven’t been yet mentioned are the following:
Interview with an Exorcist - Fr. Fortea
Hungry Souls - Aardweg
Hostage to the Devil - Martin (I don’t know if this is a Catholic author, but an interesting documentary nonetheless)
I’ve also heard that Matt Baglio’s “The Rite” is detailed and informative; I even saw it recently at my local Catholic bookstore.
Last but not least, an interesting article about a modern exorcist: zenit.org/article-22264?l=english
Okay, okay, I’ll really stop talking now. Sorry this was so long and sorry if I interrupted anything.
Pax christi sit semper vobiscum,
Ed
I believe that it is for reasons such as the above that Nihil put so much emphasis on interpreting the Bible as the Church does, or in the heart of Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is the web in which Sacred Scripture is supported as well as context in which the Scriptures can be properly understood.
Lux, you asked to be “schooled.” Believe me, that is by no means what I am trying to do here for I am hardly qualified. (Hopefully I will be years from now seeing as I’m an undergrad in religion and am going to move on to receive my Masters…we’ll see how that goes…) Besides, even if I were qualified I don’t think I would need to since there are so many other ways of analyzing Scripture in the light of the Church. If you wish to understand the Bible in it’s proper context, you must read the Church Father’s writings themselves or at least a proper compendium of them. If you wish to go the latter route, I know that Mike Aquilina has two excellent books (he may have more but these are the only two I’ve read) about the Early Church Fathers and practices: “The Mass of the Early Christians,” and, quite simply, “The Fathers of the Church.” Scott Hahn and the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology have also produced a “Catholic Bible Dictionary” which would prove to be very beneficial for such things.
As a last thought, I would like to point out that in the example of the water-to-wine miracle, at least scientifically, and by this I mean naturally as has been the topic of discussion here, water and wine are not made of the same molecule. As such, if any sort of pseudo-alchemy type reaction were to occur (personally I have never pictured Our Lord as an alchemist) the amount of moles for a given mass of water would be different than the amount of moles for a given mass of wine. There would be, then, a discrepancy of volume/mass after the transmutation. Of course, Our Lord, being God and all, could easily account for that by…well, a miracle. However, in my thinking, it’s much easier to acknowledge the entire event as a miracle to begin with, or just deny it and I’m not fond of that idea.
There is more that I could say about all of this as well as topics that I wanted to touch on but skipped over but I’m sure that I’ve had more than my fair share of things to say.
One last thing though and that is the subject of the paranormal - the reason I initially began to read this thread. Satan is very real and the cause of evil in this world. Do not confuse Satan’s power with God’s power. By this, I mean that they are not working in some sort of yin-yang type system. Evil is, essentially, the absence of God. Why is Satan alive even if God hates all evil? Because Satan, as a fallen angel, is part of God’s creation, which He loves and intended to be perfect, even if Satan is the lowest part of this. St. Augustine talks about this also in his “Confessions” and St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica. (He might in the shorter summa as well, though I’m not sure…)
Anyways, some good resources about paranormal things and demons that haven’t been yet mentioned are the following:
Interview with an Exorcist - Fr. Fortea
Hungry Souls - Aardweg
Hostage to the Devil - Martin (I don’t know if this is a Catholic author, but an interesting documentary nonetheless)
I’ve also heard that Matt Baglio’s “The Rite” is detailed and informative; I even saw it recently at my local Catholic bookstore.
Last but not least, an interesting article about a modern exorcist: zenit.org/article-22264?l=english
Okay, okay, I’ll really stop talking now. Sorry this was so long and sorry if I interrupted anything.
Pax christi sit semper vobiscum,
Ed
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NihilObstatINRI
Guest
You mentioned these books:
Anyways, some good resources about paranormal things and demons that haven’t been yet mentioned are the following:
Interview with an Exorcist - Fr. Fortea
Hungry Souls - Aardweg
Hostage to the Devil - Martin (I don’t know if this is a Catholic author, but an interesting documentary nonetheless)
[Interview with an Exorcist- Baglio]
I consulted a priest friend that I know online when I wrote this article, and the very first thing he did was recommend Hungry Souls.
It’s in my Amazon cart now, and I intend to buy it someday when I have a bit more disposable cash. I keep hearing Malachi Martin as well. I can confirm that he’s Catholic, and it seems like traddies such as myself tend to like his books, so they must be good.
Lastly, I do have Interview with an Exorcist. However it’s not my favourite book on the subject. There’s nothing wrong with it, per se, and it does have its valuable bits, but overall I found it rather light. I was looking for theology, but this is journalism (as one would expect, since Mr. Baglio is a Catholic journalist). To sum that one up; there’s nothing in there that I hadn’t already learned from Fr. Amorth.
Anyways, some good resources about paranormal things and demons that haven’t been yet mentioned are the following:
Interview with an Exorcist - Fr. Fortea
Hungry Souls - Aardweg
Hostage to the Devil - Martin (I don’t know if this is a Catholic author, but an interesting documentary nonetheless)
[Interview with an Exorcist- Baglio]
I consulted a priest friend that I know online when I wrote this article, and the very first thing he did was recommend Hungry Souls.
It’s in my Amazon cart now, and I intend to buy it someday when I have a bit more disposable cash. I keep hearing Malachi Martin as well. I can confirm that he’s Catholic, and it seems like traddies such as myself tend to like his books, so they must be good.Lastly, I do have Interview with an Exorcist. However it’s not my favourite book on the subject. There’s nothing wrong with it, per se, and it does have its valuable bits, but overall I found it rather light. I was looking for theology, but this is journalism (as one would expect, since Mr. Baglio is a Catholic journalist). To sum that one up; there’s nothing in there that I hadn’t already learned from Fr. Amorth.
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nickybr38
Guest
I’ve heard this argument before and as someone who has many experiences with the paranormal it just doesn’t make sense.
Why would God allow a soul in purgatory to appear to a child who HAS NO CONCEPT OF WHAT THEY’RE SEEING? That child will not pray for that soul. That child will only be struck with fear.
I remember the very first ‘soul’ I saw. I was only 7-8 years old. She lay screaming and begging me for help. I had no idea what to do! The second one I saw appeared during daylight hours. It just stood before me and stared me down (it was the only one I ever saw that had proper eyes). It seemed frightened. I didn’t know what to do! The most recent incident was just a little over two years ago. I saw a red man and a red woman in my apartment building. The woman stood at the foot of my bed (a nighttime incident) the man I saw during the afternoon. Again I didn’t know what to do!
Why would God allow these ‘visions’ to happen to someone who has no concept of purgatory?
I understand now and if/when it happens again (hasn’t happened for around two years but I know it’ll come again) that it’s probably a human soul stuck in purgatory… and I know to pray now… but why on earth was it allowed when the person experiencing the moment didn’t know what to do in response?
Anybody care to explain this because I’ve been struggling to understand since learning about this thought.
PS: I’m not crazy. :\ I promise.
Why would God allow a soul in purgatory to appear to a child who HAS NO CONCEPT OF WHAT THEY’RE SEEING? That child will not pray for that soul. That child will only be struck with fear.
I remember the very first ‘soul’ I saw. I was only 7-8 years old. She lay screaming and begging me for help. I had no idea what to do! The second one I saw appeared during daylight hours. It just stood before me and stared me down (it was the only one I ever saw that had proper eyes). It seemed frightened. I didn’t know what to do! The most recent incident was just a little over two years ago. I saw a red man and a red woman in my apartment building. The woman stood at the foot of my bed (a nighttime incident) the man I saw during the afternoon. Again I didn’t know what to do!
Why would God allow these ‘visions’ to happen to someone who has no concept of purgatory?
I understand now and if/when it happens again (hasn’t happened for around two years but I know it’ll come again) that it’s probably a human soul stuck in purgatory… and I know to pray now… but why on earth was it allowed when the person experiencing the moment didn’t know what to do in response?
Anybody care to explain this because I’ve been struggling to understand since learning about this thought.
PS: I’m not crazy. :\ I promise.
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NihilObstatINRI
Guest
God’s time isn’t the same as our time. Maybe you’re meant to pray for them now.
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nickybr38
Guest
Perhaps but I’m not convinced by that argument either. :\ Surely I have never forgotten any of the encounters I’ve had but why would God try to terrify a child?
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
Maybe so that you’d remember later on in life (now)?
No one can dispute that it worked.
And you are none the worse for wear for it.
Offer the prayers.
If it was really a poor soul in purgatory, they need it.
If it was not, you need it.
E
Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
I had interior experiences that convinced me there was a world beyond this one. You seem to have had exterior experiences. How we react to them is not the intention of the experience.
The main belief today is that what we see around us is all there is. Both of us, and a few others of course, know different.
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nickybr38
Guest
‘How we react to them is not the intention of the experience’? But surely God knows HOW we will react and if these are events that only happen according to God’s will then why would He allow that? I suppose it just makes no sense to me that God would allow a child to be completely terrorized just so that child could later on remember to pray for the souls she saw. Why wouldn’t He just allow these events to happen later in the child’s life?
I have an easy time reconciling evil that happens in our physical existence. Murder, rape, etc… I understand these things and can reconcile them. However, if I’m understanding correctly the idea is that God is directly allowing souls to reach out to the physical world for help. In context of my experiences this just doesn’t make sense. I can understand Him allowing family members to reach out to other family members for prayer, or those poor souls who had no family to reach out to a faithful person to pray… I cannot understand this in context of allowing a lost soul to reach out to someone who does not know how to pray and does not understand what is happening.
I’m confusing myself thinking about it even. I am trying to understand, it just doesn’t mesh. Sorry though, I didn’t mean to highjack the thread. This is something that’s just been really bothering me and that no one has had a real concrete answer for.
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
God allows horrible things (through His passive will) to happen, such as the Holocaust and the earthquake and tsunami in Japan, even though He knows that some may lose their faith in God because of it.
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nickybr38
Guest
Yes, I do understand that. This kind of falls outside that realm in a way though because those souls are now in the spiritual domain and not the physical.
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
They’re not too different. The main difference is in God’s use of Will. He would actively Will the soul to somehow affect the world of the living, but our reaction to that manifestation would be part of His passive Will.
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nickybr38
Guest
God’s time is not our time but I really don’t understand why He wouldn’t just wait until one was ready to understand the experience instead of someone who has no idea what’s happening. I suppose it’s impossible to understand God’s will…
I guess, ultimately, I’m not sure if I believe the souls in purgatory visiting us to ask for prayers thing.
N
NihilObstatINRI
Guest
I think the concept itself has been well-established in stories of the saints. The questions are how common it is, for what purposes it occurs, and who it may affect.
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