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cococandy
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Approved Workmen are not Ashamed
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Randy_Carson
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Duh. I knew that. Dunno why I typed afraid. Thanks.
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gwarald
Guest
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Cathoholic
Guest
gwarald. You said,
You used Romans 8:1 (“no condemnation for those in Christ”), to try to support your position that we don’t pay a price as you think Jesus pays your account instead of you.
(There is NO condemnation for those in Christ gwarald but we have to REMAIN in the vine [Christ] because IF we DON’T “remain” in the vine, if we don’t REMAIN IN JESUS, then there IS condemnation so Romans 8:1 is pointless to bring up to refute Catholic theology. Incidentally, notice also in John 15, we are “pruned” to bear more fruit).
Catholics say that is partially correct but your view fails to see Jesus KEEPS paying the account for you and ONE of the ways Jesus pays that account is IN you and THROUGH you and you just keep insisting that I think we pay an account apart from Jesus.
And I am saying this is false. I and other Catholics DON’T think this.
But I find it interesting you would use Romans 8:1 to support your thesis on this thread and apparently NOT affirm the rest of Romans 8 including . . . .
ROMANS 8:15-17 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Are we fellow heirs with Christ PROVIDED we suffer WITH HIM gwarald, or are we fellow heirs with Christ PROVIDED we suffer WITH HIM hypothetically?
Do you “agree” with St. Paul and the Holy Spirit here gwarald because if you do agree, you will be asserting Catholic theology.
gwarald. You also keep insisting (bold and underline mine) . . .
. . . . “as if a man could stand on his own before the tribunal of God” . . .
I have never said this. I have taken great pains to make sure you KNOW I am NOT saying this.
You didn’t answer me about how the WAGES of sin is death. Is the fact that we all physically die “hypothetical”?
You used Romans 8:1 (“no condemnation for those in Christ”), to try to support your position that we don’t pay a price as you think Jesus pays your account instead of you.
(There is NO condemnation for those in Christ gwarald but we have to REMAIN in the vine [Christ] because IF we DON’T “remain” in the vine, if we don’t REMAIN IN JESUS, then there IS condemnation so Romans 8:1 is pointless to bring up to refute Catholic theology. Incidentally, notice also in John 15, we are “pruned” to bear more fruit).
Catholics say that is partially correct but your view fails to see Jesus KEEPS paying the account for you and ONE of the ways Jesus pays that account is IN you and THROUGH you and you just keep insisting that I think we pay an account apart from Jesus.
And I am saying this is false. I and other Catholics DON’T think this.
But I find it interesting you would use Romans 8:1 to support your thesis on this thread and apparently NOT affirm the rest of Romans 8 including . . . .
ROMANS 8:15-17 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Are we fellow heirs with Christ PROVIDED we suffer WITH HIM gwarald, or are we fellow heirs with Christ PROVIDED we suffer WITH HIM hypothetically?
Do you “agree” with St. Paul and the Holy Spirit here gwarald because if you do agree, you will be asserting Catholic theology.
gwarald. You also keep insisting (bold and underline mine) . . .
. . . . “as if a man could stand on his own before the tribunal of God” . . .
I have never said this. I have taken great pains to make sure you KNOW I am NOT saying this.
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gwarald
Guest
Death, in context of Roman 6.23, is contrasted with eternal life. Alienation from God is true death. Physical death is a picture of the spiritual reality. “In the day that you eat of the fruit, you shall die.”(Gen. 2.17) Adam and Eve didn’t die physically on that day, but it is clear they were immediately alienated from God. Eternal life is fellowship with God. “This is eternal life that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17.3)
Jesus restores the fellowship with God which was broken in the garden. Physical death (including all of the Christian’s suffering) bears an entirely new meaning (and hope) for the Christian. It is used of God to draw the Christian into closer communion with God.
You are correct that we must persevere to stay in Christ (in the vine). However, our staying is the fruit of God giving us grace to believe and the power to do. “It is God who works in you both to will and to do…” (Phil. 2.13)
Therefore, since our salvation is by and through God’s work in us, then we earn nothing. Besides, at the end of the day, we are not to say, “we have paid the accounts due to God because of our sin.” But, “we are unprofitable servants, we have done only that which was our duty.” (Luke 17.10)
We are fellow heirs with Him because He purchased the salvation of the elect ONCE FOR ALL. “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” (Hebrews 10.10)
Of course we suffer with Him. “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14.22) But not because tribulation earns us such entrance. Rather, God appointed this to be the way because it demonstrates our weakness and God’s sufficiency. 1 Peter 1.5-6, “[you] are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations.”
I was trying to help you understand what Jesus was explaining to the Pharisees. Jesus was pointing them to the law in order to teach them that the way to Heaven was by faith in Him, and not by their words.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
gwarald. Some very good things brought out by you in the last post. Thank you. Seriously. I’m not saying that flippantly.
gwarald. You said (bold mine),
And it is ONLY because we have Christ in us and we in Him that his is possible.
This is classic Catholic theology.
gwarald. You also stated:
OK. Now for the portions of your post I have to take issue with (I’ll do that on my next post).
gwarald. You said (bold mine),
This is excellent theology:thumbsup:.
And it is ONLY because we have Christ in us and we in Him that his is possible.
This is classic Catholic theology.
gwarald. You also stated:
Again. This is well stated and I concur! Not because you said I am correct but because it is true.
OK. Now for the portions of your post I have to take issue with (I’ll do that on my next post).
C
Cathoholic
Guest
OK. Now some things I either partially agree with or disagree with, or disagree with your conclusions of what you said concerning Scripture.
Concerning Matthew 12, you said:
But concerning Matthew 12, go back and read the verses. Jesus was telling the Pharisees they HAD AN ACCOUNT to pay. BOTH the justified and the unjustified have an account.
This IS part of the way to Heaven. That’s WHY St. Paul explicitly stated, we are heirs with Christ PROVIDED we suffer with Him.
Why?
Fortunately St. Paul told us that too.
So that we may be glorified with Him!
This is a TEMPORAL account in Matthew 12, and is NOT on their own.
The Pharisee mindset point you made in Matthew 12 is partially true too but fails to address the “account” aspect that Jesus brings out (both for the justified AND the unjustified).
The Pharisee mindset thinks they are saved and cannot lose it (just like Calvinists do, only they commit the sin of presumption for different reasons). The Pharisee mindset looks at HIMSELF and his mere works in the flesh. The tax collector in Luke 18 illustrates this well (this is WHY the Pharisee is praying WITH “himself”, yet saying, “God”). (They also think they are saved because of their ethnicity. Something that thankfully my Calvinist friends don’t try to assert).
LUKE 18:10-14 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
This does not fit into your theology either gwarald.
gwarald. You also said,
Aside from the fact that we “earn nothing” (of our own accord), what translation are you using here gwarald?
LUKE 17:10 (RSV) 10 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’"
You must have known when you added into the verse the phrase “paid the accounts due” I was going to call you on this didn’t you?
I don’t mind some paraphrase of Scripture but not when it concerns the very core of the issue we are discussing. You’ve got to be more precise. It WAS paraphrase wasn’t it (or is there a translation you are using that I am unaware of)?
More imprecision:
You cannot reduce Jesus work ONLY to “purchased(ing) the salvation of the elect ONCE FOR ALL.”
Jesus purchased and is purchasing the salvation of the elect ONCE FOR ALL. Jesus’ work transcends time.
But Jesus purchased it ALL gwarald. For ALL His creation. The non-elect may reject Him, but “God so loved THE WORLD (not merely “the elect”) that he gave his only Son”. That’s why at the end of time we don’t merely have a “New Elect” but rather a “new Heavens and a New Earth”.
If you want begin a new thread on your “limited atonement of Jesus” issue that Calvinists claim, I will address it more (if you notify me of where the thread is) and I will also be happy to address any other limitations upon Jesus that you may try to impose upon Jesus.
You also stated some things that actually SUPPORT Catholic theology here and so I am glad you brought those verses up too. (Following quote of yours bold and underline mine)
Quote:
Of course we suffer with Him. “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14.22)
Why MUST we suffer? (I agree we MUST suffer–even the justified MUST suffer as you are now correctly pointing out, not just the condemned–but I might not agree with “WHY”).
Concerning Matthew 12, you said:
Jesus does teach that elsewhere to the Pharisees and I affirm it.
But concerning Matthew 12, go back and read the verses. Jesus was telling the Pharisees they HAD AN ACCOUNT to pay. BOTH the justified and the unjustified have an account.
This IS part of the way to Heaven. That’s WHY St. Paul explicitly stated, we are heirs with Christ PROVIDED we suffer with Him.
Why?
Fortunately St. Paul told us that too.
So that we may be glorified with Him!
This is a TEMPORAL account in Matthew 12, and is NOT on their own.
The Pharisee mindset point you made in Matthew 12 is partially true too but fails to address the “account” aspect that Jesus brings out (both for the justified AND the unjustified).
The Pharisee mindset thinks they are saved and cannot lose it (just like Calvinists do, only they commit the sin of presumption for different reasons). The Pharisee mindset looks at HIMSELF and his mere works in the flesh. The tax collector in Luke 18 illustrates this well (this is WHY the Pharisee is praying WITH “himself”, yet saying, “God”). (They also think they are saved because of their ethnicity. Something that thankfully my Calvinist friends don’t try to assert).
LUKE 18:10-14 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
This does not fit into your theology either gwarald.
gwarald. You also said,
Hold it!
Aside from the fact that we “earn nothing” (of our own accord), what translation are you using here gwarald?
LUKE 17:10 (NIV) 10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’"
LUKE 17:10 (RSV) 10 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’"
You must have known when you added into the verse the phrase “paid the accounts due” I was going to call you on this didn’t you?
I don’t mind some paraphrase of Scripture but not when it concerns the very core of the issue we are discussing. You’ve got to be more precise. It WAS paraphrase wasn’t it (or is there a translation you are using that I am unaware of)?
More imprecision:
What verse is THAT gwarald? Of course we both know the verse isn’t there, nor is the theological conclusion you drew.
You cannot reduce Jesus work ONLY to “purchased(ing) the salvation of the elect ONCE FOR ALL.”
Jesus purchased and is purchasing the salvation of the elect ONCE FOR ALL. Jesus’ work transcends time.
But Jesus purchased it ALL gwarald. For ALL His creation. The non-elect may reject Him, but “God so loved THE WORLD (not merely “the elect”) that he gave his only Son”. That’s why at the end of time we don’t merely have a “New Elect” but rather a “new Heavens and a New Earth”.
If you want begin a new thread on your “limited atonement of Jesus” issue that Calvinists claim, I will address it more (if you notify me of where the thread is) and I will also be happy to address any other limitations upon Jesus that you may try to impose upon Jesus.
You also stated some things that actually SUPPORT Catholic theology here and so I am glad you brought those verses up too. (Following quote of yours bold and underline mine)
Quote:
Of course we suffer with Him. “we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” (Acts 14.22)
Why MUST we suffer? (I agree we MUST suffer–even the justified MUST suffer as you are now correctly pointing out, not just the condemned–but I might not agree with “WHY”).
C
Cathoholic
Guest
My apologies gwarald for stating you were misrepresenting Scripture (in post 47).
I wrongly thought you were misrepresenting Sacred Scripture with your quote (about half way down in post 45 of yours). That’s why I said (in post 47): “Hold it!”
I was wrong. And when I re-read the posts today I realized that–thus my apologies.
You were merely misquoting me. You were not misrepresenting or misquoting Scriptures there.
But also I never said (“we have paid the accounts due to God because of our sin”).
Nor have I intimated as such.
I have specifically said that there are “accounts due to God” (your words) that we cannot pay.
I have also specifically pointed out we cannot on our own accord pay, (you said, "we have paid the accounts due . . . "). Rather this is HOW God works IN US.
So if you are going to re-state me, even in a paraphrase that’s fine, I have no problem with that. But get the paraphrase correct, then level your best criticism (I’m OK with that too).
I wrongly thought you were misrepresenting Sacred Scripture with your quote (about half way down in post 45 of yours). That’s why I said (in post 47): “Hold it!”
I was wrong. And when I re-read the posts today I realized that–thus my apologies.
You were merely misquoting me. You were not misrepresenting or misquoting Scriptures there.
But also I never said (“we have paid the accounts due to God because of our sin”).
Nor have I intimated as such.
I have specifically said that there are “accounts due to God” (your words) that we cannot pay.
I have also specifically pointed out we cannot on our own accord pay, (you said, "we have paid the accounts due . . . "). Rather this is HOW God works IN US.
So if you are going to re-state me, even in a paraphrase that’s fine, I have no problem with that. But get the paraphrase correct, then level your best criticism (I’m OK with that too).
C
Cathoholic
Guest
gwarald. If you are still here I was just wondering how you reconciled these verses (below) with your tradition since they all have to do with the misconception of the Catholic faith that was apparently put forth on the Awana “quiz”?
Catholics would say by the GRACE of Jesus Christ WORKING in and through us. But what would YOU say concerning your tradition?
COLOSSIANS 1:24 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
JAMES 5:19-20 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
ACTS 2:40 40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
ACTS 11:13-14 13 And he told us how he had seen the angel standing in his house and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon called Peter; 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’
ROMANS 10:10 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
ROMANS 11:13-14 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
1st CORINTHIANS 3:11-15 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved**, but only as through fire. **
1st CORINTHIANS 9:22 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1st TIMOTHY 2:15 15 Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
1st CORINTHIANS 9:25-27 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
“Disqualified” or the Greek word “Adokimos” in 1 Cor 9:27 here can be used elsewhere in Scripture for someone who is not being saved.
Catholics would say by the GRACE of Jesus Christ WORKING in and through us. But what would YOU say concerning your tradition?
COLOSSIANS 1:24 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
JAMES 5:19-20 19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
ACTS 2:40 40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
ACTS 11:13-14 13 And he told us how he had seen the angel standing in his house and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and bring Simon called Peter; 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’
ROMANS 10:10 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
ROMANS 11:13-14 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
1st CORINTHIANS 3:11-15 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved**, but only as through fire. **
1st CORINTHIANS 9:22 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1st TIMOTHY 2:15 15 Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.
1st CORINTHIANS 9:25-27 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; 27 but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
“Disqualified” or the Greek word “Adokimos” in 1 Cor 9:27 here can be used elsewhere in Scripture for someone who is not being saved.
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