Catholic teaching not found in the Bible

[someotherguy]

Ok, then, why would a literal enterp not be in context?

Because the ghosts of dead people do not get up and walk around.

There is another benadam? I never!..

Unfortunately, yes. He’s not a good guy.

 

[jmcrae]

Because we read it in context.

The context of that verse is the literal death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. How do you get a symbolic or metaphorical interpretation out of that?

Isn’t the point of the verse to show that Christ’s death and resurrection has a physically life-giving effect on the human race? If this verse is intended as a metaphor for something, then I have two questions:

What is the metaphor that this figure of speech is referring to?

What is the effect of Christ’s death and resurrection on the human race, and where is it indicated in the Passion/Resurrection accounts in the Gospels?

 

[Benadam]

Because the ghosts of dead people do not get up and walk around.

Unfortunately, yes. He’s not a good guy.

I don’t know where you get defining the people walking around as ghosts is in context.

I’ll try and clean up our name then.

 

[Lilyflower]

You’re absolutely right. Everyone who is born again is a saint. Every born again person now living on Earth is a saint.

Of course, you choose to pray to the dead ones.QUOTE]

Why do you struggle to believe the Scriptures? and why are you astounded by His teaching?

Jesus said: ‘God is not God of he dead but of the living, for everyone is in fact alive to God!’ Mt22:32

 

[someotherguy]

The context of that verse is the literal death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. How do you get a symbolic or metaphorical interpretation out of that?

Because we’re not talking about the death and resurrection of Christ, we’re talking about the dead who came out of their tombs and walked around.

What is the metaphor that this figure of speech is referring to?

To the faithful Jews of the OT who were waiting for Christ to fulfil the atonement for them.

What is the effect of Christ’s death and resurrection on the human race, and where is it indicated in the Passion/Resurrection accounts in the Gospels?

The effect is that it gives men an opportunity to be saved.

This is a very common tactic. The Bible contains 66 books, but the Roman Catholic will very often say “unless it’s in this one small passage, I won’t believe it”. I hate to break this to you but the passion account doesn’t hold any more weight or authority than the rest of the scriptures.

 

[jmcrae]

No, the two have nothing to do with one another.

Then what does it have to do with? How does one enter into a vision and begin to communicate with heavenly beings, outside of prayer?

Do you know what the analogy of scripture is?

Yes, and I also know that Evangelical Protestants don’t believe in it, since it leads to a Sacramental theology.

You’ve done so several times now.

Once, at most.

 

[someotherguy]

Why do you struggle to believe the Scriptures? and why are you astounded by His teaching?

I don’t struggle at all. I believe the scriptures very strongly.

Jesus said: ‘God is not God of he dead but of the living, for everyone is in fact alive to God!’ Mt22:32

I notice that you completely ignored the verses I gave you.

 

[someotherguy]

Yes, and I also know that Evangelical Protestants don’t believe in it, since it leads to a Sacramental theology.

No, actually we know that it has nothing at all to do with sacramental theology.

Once, at most.

At least three times.

However, the fact that you admit that you did it even once is evidence that you did say it.

 

[Camron]

Irrelevant. I’m talking about the Biblical definition of prayer.

Show me from the Bible your Biblical definition of prayer.

Dead.

And yet he did not die.

How exactly are Elijah and Enoch dead if they never died?

I see nothing Unchristlike about telling the truth.

I see nothing Unchristlike about telling the truth either.

OK. Please show me some evidence that she is not dead.

I don’t have any special powers to “summon” Mary for you. You should know better than to ask a question like this. I can only pray. And I do not have the faith of Mary, Elijah, or Enoch.

See Romans 14:9, in which we’re told that God is the God of both the living and the dead.

Why are fire trucks red?

This is an evasion.

If God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead when Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then how can Catholics be praying to dead people?

That’s right. They are spiritually alive. However, they are still physically dead. They have passed into the spiritual realm and, thus, are off limits to us.

Where does the Bible say that people who are spiritually alive in Christ are off limits to us?

OK. Who are the dead in Christ?

It doesn’t say the “dead in Christ” in Romans 14:9.

It says, “For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.”

Let’s look at the whole passage leading up to this…

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written:

" ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ "

So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

There are people who are physically dead but spiritually alive in Christ.

There are people who are physically dead but also spiritually dead too.

The people who are physically dead but yet spiritually alive in Christ are the saints.

There are people who are physically dead but also spiritually dead too are the damned.

Jesus is the Lord of both those who are alive in Christ and those who are damned. But only those who are alive in Christ are considered still alive to us through the Communion of the Saints. We can talk with the Communion of the Saints. We probably cannot talk with the damned since they are lost. The problem is that we really don’t know who is lost and saved until Judgement Day. We can, however, hope for their salvation.

OK. Who are the dead in Christ?

I think I’ve already answered this question.

 

[Benadam]

I know that thwe concept of a disembodied spirit or soul or ghost of any kind is not something in the text. It is a preconceived notion thrust upon the text for lack of any other acceptable explanation.

 

[jmcrae]

Because we’re not talking about the death and resurrection of Christ, we’re talking about the dead who came out of their tombs and walked around.

Right in the middle of talking about Christ’s death and resurrection, straight out of no where, Matthew mentions that the dead came forth from their tombs and began to walk around. He makes no comment on this phenomenon; he simply reports that it happened.

To the faithful Jews of the OT who were waiting for Christ to fulfil the atonement for them.

And they metaphorically got up out of their tombs and started walking around - but not actually.

The effect is that it gives men an opportunity to be saved.

“Saved” meaning that one day, we will literally get up out of our tombs and have eternal life.

But those who were waiting for the coming of Christ weren’t actually raised from their tombs, because …

This is a very common tactic. The Bible contains 66 books, but the Roman Catholic will very often say “unless it’s in this one small passage, I won’t believe it”. I hate to break this to you but the passion account doesn’t hold any more weight or authority than the rest of the scriptures.

Nor any less. Every word of Scripture is for our salvation; not just a few passages here and there.

How and why did the Jews metaphorically rise from the dead, but not actually?

 

[jmcrae]

However, the fact that you admit that you did it even once is evidence that you did say it.

I mistook the Angel in Rev. 19 for one of the Elders. My bad.

St. John was still praying to him, in any case.

 

[someotherguy]

And they metaphorically got up out of their tombs and started walking around - but not actually.

Right. Ghosts do not get up and walk around. The Bible is very clear that we go directly to Heaven at the momen of death, not linger on the Earth as ghosts.

But those who were waiting for the coming of Christ weren’t actually raised from their tombs, because …

Because the Bible doesn’t say that they were.

How and why did the Jews metaphorically rise from the dead, but not actually?

Answered this one already.

 

[someotherguy]

I mistook the Angel in Rev. 19 for one of the Elders. My bad.

St. John was still praying to him, in any case.

And I have already posted that passage, which does not include any mention of John praying to anyone.

 

[Camron]

I mistook the Angel in Rev. 19 for one of the Elders. My bad.

St. John was still praying to him, in any case.

But that is a great point. There were indeed 24 Elders in Heaven. These are not angels but rather people.

 

[someotherguy]

I know that thwe concept of a disembodied spirit or soul or ghost of any kind is not something in the text. It is a preconceived notion thrust upon the text for lack of any other acceptable explanation.

You’d better explain that to jmcrea.

 

[Benadam]

You’d better explain that to jmcrea.

but you are the one claiming the concept of a ghost is in context. not jmcrea.

 

[mercygate]

Right. Ghosts do not get up and walk around. The Bible is very clear that we go directly to Heaven at the momen of death, not linger on the Earth as ghosts.

Because the Bible doesn’t say that they were.

Answered this one already.

It would help us if when you say “Bible” you could cite book, chapter and verse.

 

[mercygate]

But that is a great point. There were indeed 24 Elders in Heaven. These are not angels but rather people.

And don’t forget those “dead” martyrs under the altar in Revelaton 6 asking when their blood would be avenged. Not to mention the prayers of the saints being offered by those Elders in golden bowls of incense.

Seems like a WHOLE lot of communication is going on between the Church on earth and the Church in Heaven.

 

[Camron]

That is not praying.

First, John was caught up in a vision. It was God who caused him to be caught up into the vision. So if God’s messenger came to him to facilitate that vision, it is perfectly reasonable for him to communicate with the angel.

And now you’re finally starting to understand the Catholic understanding of the authority that God has entrusted to us. God does come to us by the Holy Spirit to call us to prayer, prayer for both the living and the dead, both of which are alive in Christ.

It is perfectly reasonable for us to communicate with those who are alive in Christ this way and it is exactly through a true Spirit-led prayer that God facilitates this.