Catholic teaching on Election

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I am currently in a discussion with a Reformed colleague (English Presbyterian) regarding election. I do not know the Church’s exact teaching on Election but have been given a host of Bible proof-texts:
  • John 6:44
  • John 15:16
  • Romans 8: 29-33
  • Ephesians 1:4-5
  • 2 Thessalonians 2:13
Would appreciate assistance as all I know is that the Church does not teach pre-destination but that we have free will. Would appreciate someone more learned than me assisting here!

Thanks very much.
 
KnightIHSV said:
I am currently in a discussion with a Reformed colleague (English Presbyterian) regarding election. I do not know the Church’s exact teaching on Election but have been given a host of Bible proof-texts:
  • John 6:44
  • John 15:16
  • Romans 8: 29-33
  • Ephesians 1:4-5
  • 2 Thessalonians 2:13
Would appreciate assistance as all I know is that the Church does not teach pre-destination but that we have free will. Would appreciate someone more learned than me assisting here!

Thanks very much.
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As to the John readings, those are out of context. If you read the whole chapter, (John 6) Jesus is clearly speaking about the Holy Eucharist. On John 15, if you read the entire reading, not just the one cherry picked line. First off, Jesus was speaking to the apostles. This is important because Jesus picked them to lead the early church. (Matthew 16:18) Jesus was talking about the fact that we are being relieved from our slavery to sin. (verse 15) Then Jesus sent out the Apostles to bear fruit. (with the church) Still, I see no where I see anything about predestination in that reading.

The next three are a little better on his part. But you need to understand the Catholic definition of grace. You see, historically, protestants have changed the definition of grace and justification. Grace is a God given gift given to us through the sacraments. So, when you put these parts of justification into it, that grace factor changes the whole meaning of those readings. The reason for this is that the grace and justification come through the Catholic Church. Now read Romans 8, the meaning changes with that. The church was called by God. Note that St. Paul usually wrote to churches, not individuals. There are exceptions to that guideline like Philemon, Titus and 1 and 2 Timothy. Still, those exceptions do not apply here because every Pauline citation you made was from a letter written to a community. You see, when he said “God chose you” in 2 Thessalonians, he was not talking to an individual but to a whole Christian community. Similarly in Ephesians, he said " he chose us in him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and without blemish before him." Note, he said us and not you. He was speaking of Gods plan in regards to Christianity, not an individual.

I am sure you will get some other great answers. I hope I was able to enlighten this issue a little. God bless.
 
One more thing, you will find what I pointed out in my first paragraph happens a lot. A lot of readings a Protestant will have memorized is often a individual line void of its surroundings. It is often best when confronted with such lines to read not only their line, but the whole chapter to make sure the meaning they suggest still holds true after a complete reading. This is not always enough but it works a surprisingly large amount of the time.
 
The CC teaches a form of predestination- based on Gods foreknowledge of our choices. But our choices, i.e. our freewill, are always involved. She also teaches that none are predestined to hell.
 
Yes, I think that is it precisely. It is just that someone talking to me over an afternoon tea about how they can know they are one of “God’s elect” left me rather dumbstruck!
 
KnightIHSV said:
I am currently in a discussion with a Reformed colleague (English Presbyterian) regarding election. I do not know the Church’s exact teaching on Election but have been given a host of Bible proof-texts:
  • John 6:44
  • John 15:16
  • Romans 8: 29-33
  • Ephesians 1:4-5
  • 2 Thessalonians 2:13
Would appreciate assistance as all I know is that the Church does not teach pre-destination but that we have free will. Would appreciate someone more learned than me assisting here!

Thanks very much.
Click to expand...
Modern Catholic Dictionary:

ELECTION. The act of choice or selection of suitable means to an end, made by an intelligent being. In biblical terms the divine election is God’s choice of certain people for a given mission he wanted them to fulfill. Thus Paul was a “chosen instrument” (Acts 9:15), and all Christians “have been chosen” (I Thessalonians 1:4).
 
So is what the Church teaches a matter of some people being elected by God to perform a certain mission but, otherwise, there is no pre-destination/election so far as a person’s salvation is concerned?
 
KnightIHSV said:
So is what the Church teaches a matter of some people being elected by God to perform a certain mission but, otherwise, there is no pre-destination/election so far as a person’s salvation is concerned?
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The following are paragraphs from the Catechism. Our wills are always involved in our salvation, God “predestines” based on our choices, and He predestines none to hell.

**600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."395 For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.396

2782 We can adore the Father because he has caused us to be reborn to his life by adopting us as his children in his only Son: by Baptism, he incorporates us into the Body of his Christ; through the anointing of his Spirit who flows from the head to the members, he makes us other “Christs.”
God, indeed, who has predestined us to adoption as his sons, has conformed us to the glorious Body of Christ. So then you who have become sharers in Christ are appropriately called "Christs."34
The new man, reborn and restored to his God by grace, says first of all, “Father!” because he has now begun to be a son.35

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:
When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

**
 
KnightIHSV said:
Yes, I think that is it precisely. It is just that someone talking to me over an afternoon tea about how they can know they are one of “God’s elect” left me rather dumbstruck!
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Hmm…ask them that if they can know if they are one of God’s elect, can they can also know if they are not? I wonder how many people who believe in this Calvinistic thinking also believe they are one of the damned!

I doubt very many.
 
Yes, this is precisely the problem that I have as well. I agree that we as Catholics (and other professing Christians) can be secure in our faith in Christ but I find it hard to take the next step and say that I was destined to be saved and someone else was destined to be damned. I find I agree with much of the Calvinist emphasis on God’s sovereignty and power and grace - however I recoil at their next step of saying that God has created some to just be fallen and tormented. Even Lucifer and his ilk got to choose their fate.

Or have I missed something?

Thanks as always.
 
KnightIHSV said:
Yes, this is precisely the problem that I have as well. I agree that we as Catholics (and other professing Christians) can be secure in our faith in Christ but I find it hard to take the next step and say that I was destined to be saved and someone else was destined to be damned. I find I agree with much of the Calvinist emphasis on God’s sovereignty and power and grace - however I recoil at their next step of saying that God has created some to just be fallen and tormented. Even Lucifer and his ilk got to choose their fate.

Or have I missed something?

Thanks as always.
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The Church teaching is very clear on this. It teaches that nobody is predestined to go to Hell.
 
KnightIHSV said:
Yes, this is precisely the problem that I have as well. I agree that we as Catholics (and other professing Christians) can be secure in our faith in Christ but I find it hard to take the next step and say that I was destined to be saved and someone else was destined to be damned. I find I agree with much of the Calvinist emphasis on God’s sovereignty and power and grace - however I recoil at their next step of saying that God has created some to just be fallen and tormented. Even Lucifer and his ilk got to choose their fate.

Or have I missed something?

Thanks as always.
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What you’re speaking of is the reformed doctrine of “double predestination.” God chose some to go to heaven, and chose the rest to go to hell. In the reformed tradition, God’s sovereignty overrides free will, because His grace is “irresistible.”

The Church’s teaching on predestination goes hand in hand with the teaching on God’s universal salvific will which is, God desires all to be saved, and he provides the means for His desire through the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ. Predestination as the Church teaches it is: God foreknows who will get to heaven. He gives the necessary aid for all of us to get there, but some choose not to cooperate and resist God’s graces.

Our cooperation and free will is the key reason, I think, reformers have such a difficult time with Catholicism in general, and must believe in double predestination. They do not believe that we can cooperate with God in any way. They believe that it detracts from His glory. Our suffering is not redemptive, we cannot make reparation in any way, our prayers do not have any influence, etc… They believe we cannot choose God, because we cannot cooperate with him in **any **way.

This, of course, is heresy, which Trent spelled out. God can’t predestine to hell because his plan can only be for good. Not only that, but it *contradicts *His universal salvific will that *all *be saved. The only reason someone will be damned is because they culpably resist his salvific will. Although reformers will deny it to their dying breath, they make God responsible for evil, which is a recurring problem in their theology, and they have to continually dance around it.

When people made this objection to Luther, he responded:
The highest degree of faith is to believe that God is merciful, though He saves so few and damns so many. And to believe that he is just, though of His own will he makes us, by necessity, proper subjects of damnation" Luther, *The Bondage of the Will *
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:eek: yikes
 
constantconvert said:
What you’re speaking of is the reformed doctrine of “double predestination.” God chose some to go to heaven, and chose the rest to go to hell. In the reformed tradition, God’s sovereignty overrides free will, because His grace is “irresistible.”

The Church’s teaching on predestination goes hand in hand with the teaching on God’s universal salvific will which is, God desires all to be saved, and he provides the means for His desire through the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ. Predestination as the Church teaches it is: God foreknows who will get to heaven. He gives the necessary aid for all of us to get there, but some choose not to cooperate and resist God’s graces.

Our cooperation and free will is the key reason, I think, reformers have such a difficult time with Catholicism in general, and must believe in double predestination. They do not believe that we can cooperate with God in any way. They believe that it detracts from His glory. Our suffering is not redemptive, we cannot make reparation in any way, our prayers do not have any influence, etc… They believe we cannot choose God, because we cannot cooperate with him in **any **way.

This, of course, is heresy, which Trent spelled out. God can’t predestine to hell because his plan can only be for good. Not only that, but it *contradicts *His universal salvific will that *all *be saved. The only reason someone will be damned is because they culpably resist his salvific will. Although reformers will deny it to their dying breath, they make God responsible for evil, which is a recurring problem in their theology, and they have to continually dance around it.

When people made this objection to Luther, he responded:

:eek: yikes
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a reasonable understanding of Luther’s quote can be found here:
elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Journal-of-Lutheran-Ethics/Issues/January-2003/Martin-Luther-A-Pure-Doctrine-of-Faith.aspx

Jon
 
constantconvert said:
I was a reformed protestant for 20 years, so I think I’ve got a pretty good handle on it. But I will read it, thank you.
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Well, then you know that Reformed and Lutheran hold two significantly different positions on election. It is also important to point out that* “The Bondage of the Will”* is not a confessional document.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Well, then you know that Reformed and Lutheran hold two significantly different positions on election. It is also important to point out that* “The Bondage of the Will”* is not a confessional document.

Jon
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I’ve read a lot of Luther. Not being Lutheran, but PCA (and non-denom evangelical before that) I would not be able to distinguish beliefs of ELCA from Luther or from other Lutheran synods, no.

I’m not sure what your point is about Bondage of the Will not being a confessional document. You mean he uses a lot of hyperbole? (Have you read his commentary on Galatians, man he really lays into us papists-- I don’t mean I’m offended. I love Luther’s passion, and quite frankly a lot of those names he calls us crack me up. Very creative. Anyway, I’m getting off track.) If you mean that it’s not confessional in the sense that he’s not writing an official Confession of Faith, I know, but the principals and theology of the Bondage of the will are definitely in the Westminster Confession. I don’t know what confession Lutheran’s use.

Sorry if my initial response to you was a little snippy, no zeal like the convert, ya know. 😉
 
=constantconvert;9317538]I’ve read a lot of Luther. Not being Lutheran, but PCA (and non-denom evangelical before that) I would not be able to distinguish beliefs of ELCA from Luther or from other Lutheran synods, no.
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I’m not sure what your point is about Bondage of the Will not being a confessional document.
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The Book of Concord includes three writings of Luther - the Small and Large Catechisms, and Smalkald.
You mean he uses a lot of hyperbole? (Have you read his commentary on Galatians, man he really lays into us papists-- I don’t mean I’m offended.
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Yeah, he does in other writings too. Some of the things he writes about Rome makes me blush. 😊 Some of the things he wrote I don’t see in the CC of today.
I love Luther’s passion, and quite frankly a lot of those names he calls us crack me up. Very creative. Anyway, I’m getting off track.) If you mean that it’s not confessional in the sense that he’s not writing an official Confession of Faith, I know, but the principals and theology of the Bondage of the will are definitely in the Westminster Confession. I don’t know what confession Lutheran’s use.
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www.bookofconcord.org
Sorry if my initial response to you was a little snippy, no zeal like the convert, ya know.
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Goodness, no. No problem. 😉

Jon
 
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