Catholic teaching on gender roles

[Walking_Home]

When thinking about those cultures – where women are are subordinated to the decisions of men – I think we tend to associate the cultures to some country out there. But here under our own very nose – “pockets” of these type of “cultures” exist – as in some fundamentalist protestant sects-- and even a “current” of that type of thinking flowing within Catholicism.

MESSAGE OF HIS HOLINESS
POPE BENEDICT XVI
FOR THE CELEBRATION OF THE
WORLD DAY OF PEACE

A fundamental element of building peace is the recognition of the essential equality of human persons springing from their common transcendental dignity. Equality on this level is a good belonging to all, inscribed in that natural “grammar” which is deducible from the divine plan of creation; it is a good that cannot be ignored or scorned without causing serious repercussions which put peace at risk. The extremely grave deprivation afflicting many peoples, especially in Africa, lies at the root of violent reactions and thus inflicts a terrible wound on peace.

1. Similarly, inadequate consideration for the condition of women helps to create instability in the fabric of society. I think of the exploitation of women who are treated as objects, and of the many ways that a lack of respect is shown for their dignity;** I also think —in a different context—of the mindset persisting in some cultures, where women are still firmly subordinated to the arbitrary decisions of men**, with grave consequences for their personal dignity and for the exercise of their fundamental freedoms. There can be no illusion of a secure peace until these forms of discrimination are also overcome, since they injure the personal dignity impressed by the Creator upon every human being(5).

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/messages/peace/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20061208_xl-world-day-peace.html

 

[Bonnie]

Especially when one considers that at the turn of the 20th century, newborn BOYS were dressed in pink and newborn GIRLS in blue,

I was just reading a story in a short story anthology published in 1905. The author mentions that pink is for boys & blue is for girls!

 

[LightBound]

When thinking about those cultures – where women are are subordinated to the decisions of men – I think we tend to associate the cultures to some country out there. But here under our own very nose – “pockets” of these type of “cultures” exist – as in some fundamentalist protestant sects-- and even a “current” of that type of thinking flowing within Catholicism.

There is that kind of thinking right here on CAF forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12650098&postcount=276

 

[edwest2]

Gender roles are well defined. A man or woman may or may not choose to marry. However, men and women who truly get to know, understand and respect each other before marriage are in a much better position than those who choose otherwise. Both must have the proper disposition toward marriage which is where the parents of both can play a role. The Church also offers counseling for those planning to marry. In these ways, men and women may find their expectations of marriage being different, resulting in surprises after the ceremony. Pope John Paul II also addressed the proper attitudes men should have regarding women. He was well aware that certain attitudes among married men were inappropriate.

Marriage is mutual self-giving. A commitment.

biblehub.com/ephesians/5-22.htm

biblehub.com/ephesians/5-25.htm

As far as roles outside of marriage, there are many. And yes, there are situations where abuse does occur in marriage and the Church offers a remedy.

“Gender roles,” beyond average biology, is a sometimes confusing concept. In the case of “gender identity,” Pope Francis has commented on this.

crisismagazine.com/2015/freedom-creative-becomes-freedom-create-oneself

Peace,
Ed

 

[sttcatherinefan]

I’ve never fit gender stereotypes and I’ve always felt frustrated by the Church trying to fit women into narrow categories. Yes, there are physical differences between men and women and some emotional differences due to hormones but I think that the differences are overblown and have been used to shame women into certain traditional roles and suggest that there are things that women cannot do. I’m a computer programming, data analyst and overall nerd. And I am an introvert who enjoys being alone. I enjoy working and I didn’t work my butt off in school and get two masters degrees to be a housewife. I dislike cleaning, cannot cook, and cannot conceive of an entire life revolving around entertaining toddlers. And I resent the fact that there are men out there including unmarried priests and bishops up to Pope Francis who think that I would feel better if I was a married stay at home mommy. That isn’t who I am and isn’t what defines me as a person. I’m not being pressured by society to conform to a certain role; that is just who I am as a person. I feel at ease with society and upset with the Church for trying to define me as something that I am not.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

And a few other observations…

1. One of the offshoots of the pure princess talk and feminine genius talk is the lack of acknowledgement that women are sexual beings. Women might consume sex slightly differently than men but they still enjoy sex. Men weren’t the ones purchasing Fifty Shades of Gray; it was mainly 30 and 40-something suburban middle class women. With John Paul II and other bishops, I get the sense that they didn’t wish to acknowledge this fact about women which is why his work seems very centered on husbands abstaining from sex rather than an acknowledgement that women are sexually attracted to their husbands.
2. I get tired of hearing Our Lady is the most important human from men who then spew out stereotypes about women. Praising Mary and then telling women to get back into the kitchen and have more babies doesn’t work. If one was really devoted to Mary, one would be devoted and supportive of individual women with their diverse personalities and talents and wouldn’t try to pigeonhole them into some glorified princess and angel version of the feminine.

 

[Bonnie]

I’ve never fit gender stereotypes and I’ve always felt frustrated by the Church trying to fit women into narrow categories.

I wasn’t aware that the Catholic Church did this. I became a Catholic in 1976 & read a LOT about saints and the spiritual life; I saw nothing about stereotypical gender roles. If I had, I’d remember. Back then I was going through my “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle” phase.

Now individual lay people, both Catholic & Protestant - that’s another story. Wasn’t the Total Woman lady Catholic? I may be remembering that wrong.

 

[Sarcelle]

I’ve never fit gender stereotypes and I’ve always felt frustrated by the Church trying to fit women into narrow categories. Yes, there are physical differences between men and women and some emotional differences due to hormones but I think that the differences are overblown and have been used to shame women into certain traditional roles and suggest that there are things that women cannot do. I’m a computer programming, data analyst and overall nerd. And I am an introvert who enjoys being alone. I enjoy working and I didn’t work my butt off in school and get two masters degrees to be a housewife. I dislike cleaning, cannot cook, and cannot conceive of an entire life revolving around entertaining toddlers. And I resent the fact that there are men out there including unmarried priests and bishops up to Pope Francis who think that I would feel better if I was a married stay at home mommy. That isn’t who I am and isn’t what defines me as a person. I’m not being pressured by society to conform to a certain role; that is just who I am as a person. I feel at ease with society and upset with the Church for trying to define me as something that I am not.

I hear you. Like you I am nerd girl with a passion for engineering and science. I work around trains and locomotives and enjoy my work immensely. I also have Asperger’s so the prospect of being a housewife and mommy was never attractive to me. It may be attractive to most women, so it behooves us to be respectful of their choices.

I doubt that the expectation for all women to be stay at homes is an official Catholic teaching. Sure there may be people who do say that but I doubt that this the case.

Also I would like to add that being a housewife is not a waste of one’s talent and brains. My mom is a housewife and she is one of the most intelligent people I know. Also motherhood does not boil down to entertaining toddlers. I personally think God’s greatest invention happen to be mothers.

Come to think of it, Mother’s Day is approaching.

 

[Sarcelle]

I wasn’t aware that the Catholic Church did this. I became a Catholic in 1976 & read a LOT about saints and the spiritual life; I saw nothing about stereotypical gender roles. If I had, I’d remember. Back then I was going through my “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle” phase.

Now individual lay people, both Catholic & Protestant - that’s another story. Wasn’t the Total Woman lady Catholic? I may be remembering that wrong.

I grew up as an atheist but I read Catholic books on the lives of the saints. What struck me was how wonderfully individual they were. They were not stamped out of a cookie cutter.

The only groups that seem to advocate that all women MUST be housewives are the more fundamentalist groups.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

I wasn’t aware that the Catholic Church did this. I became a Catholic in 1976 & read a LOT about saints and the spiritual life; I saw nothing about stereotypical gender roles. If I had, I’d remember. Back then I was going through my “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle” phase.

Now individual lay people, both Catholic & Protestant - that’s another story. Wasn’t the Total Woman lady Catholic? I may be remembering that wrong.

I don’t think that it is sinful to not be a wife and a mother, but it does seem that women are pressured to do so. I just get the sense when I hear anything that Pope Francis or before him John Paul II said about women that ladies who aren’t within certain gender stereotypes aren’t real women or are being pressured by society or would feel so much better if they become stay-at-home mommies. I am totally tired of Pope Francis’ condescending lectures on the true nature of women. I don’t think that he thinks that women should have professions; let alone be political or business leaders. He seems to think that the only use for women in society is having fluffy compassion (because of their wombs) and moderating the tendencies of men. It is very much in line with the Victorian idea of women as the nurturing angel who needs to be protected from the big, bad world.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

I hear you. Like you I am nerd girl with a passion for engineering and science. I work around trains and locomotives and enjoy my work immensely. I also have Asperger’s so the prospect of being a housewife and mommy was never attractive to me. It may be attractive to most women, so it behooves us to be respectful of their choices.

I doubt that the expectation for all women to be stay at homes is an official Catholic teaching. Sure there may be people who do say that but I doubt that this the case.

Also I would like to add that being a housewife is not a waste of one’s talent and brains. My mom is a housewife and she is one of the most intelligent people I know. Also motherhood does not boil down to entertaining toddlers. I personally think God’s greatest invention happen to be mothers.

Come to think of it, Mother’s Day is approaching.

All women are individuals and shouldn’t be lumped into a very narrow role. And I don’t think that the role of housewife is attractive to many women, which is why the feminist movement occurred in the first place. We are all individuals but the Church only recognizes a certain type of woman as a “real woman.”

 

[LightBound]

When thinking about those cultures – where women are are subordinated to the decisions of men – I think we tend to associate the cultures to some country out there. But here under our own very nose – “pockets” of these type of “cultures” exist – as in some fundamentalist protestant sects-- and even a “current” of that type of thinking flowing within Catholicism.

Oh, it’s right here with some members of CAF- take a look at the final part of his last sentence

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12650098&postcount=276

 

[Sarcelle]

Oh, it’s right here with some members of CAF- take a look at the final part of his last sentence

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12650098&postcount=276

Oh yes. I remember this. It seems like he thinks he ought to be able to approach any woman on the street and issue commands to her, due to the natural authority of all men over all women.

 

[Walking_Home]

Oh, it’s right here with some members of CAF- take a look at the final part of his last sentence

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12650098&postcount=276

---

Yup – that’s some toxic/poisonous mentality.

 

[edwest2]

Any woman should plan and choose accordingly. For Catholics, the Church has helped define the natural state of the man and woman and our many options in life. If a woman wants to do any kind of average job or be a computer programer is not taught as bad. However, a fundamental role for men and women regarding the next generation of human beings is getting married and having children. Rude men are just that, rude. “I would prefer you don’t talk to me like that.” I got a similar statement from a female coworker when I inadvertently said something that bothered her. We remained on good terms. Saying “I’m sorry” when appropriate is a good thing.

Should a woman feel pressured, it’s just a case of “I’ve made up my mind…” to do this or that. Or “Thanks for the advice but I want [fill in the blank].”

I was born in the mid 1950s, the average number of kids for miles around was TWO, not ten. People tend to forget we had neighborhoods with couples who were beyond their child-bearing years. People who had one child, others that could not conceive, and the occasional family with 3 or 4 kids.

And as far as jobs held by women from then till now?

money.cnn.com/2013/01/31/news/economy/secretary-women-jobs/

Peace,
Ed

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve never fit gender stereotypes and I’ve always felt frustrated by the Church trying to fit women into narrow categories. Yes, there are physical differences between men and women and some emotional differences due to hormones but I think that the differences are overblown and have been used to shame women into certain traditional roles and suggest that there are things that women cannot do. I’m a computer programming, data analyst and overall nerd. And I am an introvert who enjoys being alone. I enjoy working and I didn’t work my butt off in school and get two masters degrees to be a housewife. I dislike cleaning, cannot cook, and cannot conceive of an entire life revolving around entertaining toddlers. And I resent the fact that there are men out there including unmarried priests and bishops up to Pope Francis who think that I would feel better if I was a married stay at home mommy. That isn’t who I am and isn’t what defines me as a person. I’m not being pressured by society to conform to a certain role; that is just who I am as a person. I feel at ease with society and upset with the Church for trying to define me as something that I am not.

???

I think you need to distinguish more clearly between official church teaching and popular trends in Catholic life. I had something very similar happen to me where (thanks to the old-time CCL) I was sure that being Catholic was synonymous with a particular childcare philosophy: ecological breastfeeding, tandem nursing, cosleeping, babywearing, homeschooling, etc. It was like scales falling off my eyes when I realized that those things aren’t actually official church teaching.

There’s a very interesting Protestant (I think) blogger here that you might learn some interesting stuff from:

thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/

Here are some good posts to skim through:

thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/2015/04/09/3-historical-reasons-american-motherhood-is-so-dysfunctional/

thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/2015/04/02/mormon-men-are-not-patriocentric/

thepracticalconservative.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/economic-defensiveness-isnt-a-good-look/

The Practical Conservative has some very interesting thoughts about how a conservative Protestant ideal has recently gelled encouraging mothers to stay home, have large families, homeschool, and feel like failures if they don’t also do all of their own cooking and cleaning (or at least just have help from kids). Mothers are supposed to do all of this stuff alone. The Practical Conservative points out that this is actually a fairly new ideal. In living memory, any woman that could afford it would have household help, and she’d have absolutely no shame about it, and it was regarded as being a severe hardship not to have household help. There’s something incredibly perverse about the idea of encouraging women to maximize the amount of work that needs to be done at home, and then shame them for not being able to do it alone.

I think a bright person like yourself ought to eventually learn how to cook (if only for your own personal enjoyment), but at the same time, I think you ought to look at actual church documents and see if they say anything about women needing to do every single bit of cooking and cleaning that goes on in a household. I think you will find that they don’t.

I’m an SAHM of 3 kids, married almost 17 years, my husband has a good job, I have housecleaners twice a month, I have my 2-year-old in parents’ day out once a week (I’ll probably go to 2 days a week in the fall), I cook only when necessary (we have the option of eating very economically in a college cafeteria most nights), my husband does the dishes almost every night, my big kids keep their rooms clean, and yes, it is kind of awesome.

Figure out what the church actually teaches and work out a life that works for you personally. Until you get married or have kids, there’s no knowing what you’re actually going to want. You may surprise yourself.

 

[Bonnie]

I was born in the mid 1950s, the average number of kids for miles around was TWO, not ten. People tend to forget we had neighborhoods with couples who were beyond their child-bearing years. People who had one child, others that could not conceive, and the occasional family with 3 or 4 kids.
Peace,
Ed

Me too. The 2 biggest families in our neighborhood had 4 children each. Many had 3 (as mine did), others had 1 or 2 children, or none. A couple of the kids were adopted.

I now see a lot more large families - 5+ kids - than I did growing up. The few Catholic families I knew then (we were Protestant) had only 2 or 3 kids.

And most of the mothers - mine included - worked at least part-time, if not full-time.

 

[Xantippe]

I hear you. Like you I am nerd girl with a passion for engineering and science. I work around trains and locomotives and enjoy my work immensely. I also have Asperger’s so the prospect of being a housewife and mommy was never attractive to me. It may be attractive to most women, so it behooves us to be respectful of their choices.

My 7th grader is a nerd girl and an Aspie, too, and quite gifted at math and anything abstract. She currently says she doesn’t want to get married or have children, but if she ever changes her mind about that, I want to be there for her so that she never has to choose between having a family and doing what she loves if she decides that she wants to have both.

 

[Xantippe]

All women are individuals and shouldn’t be lumped into a very narrow role. And I don’t think that the role of housewife is attractive to many women, which is why the feminist movement occurred in the first place. We are all individuals but the Church only recognizes a certain type of woman as a “real woman.”

Pick up some biographies of female saints and read them.

Edith Stein would be a good starting place.

Teresa of Avila, too.

 

[Petaro]

I suppose that depends on what you mean by “roles”.

This is not correct. Women are not “barred” from the priesthood. It is not possible for women to be priests. Saying women are “barred” from the priesthood is akin to saying men are “barred” from child bearing or fish are “barred” from land.

Men and women aren’t “barred” from anything.

Your sex determines whether your are male or female.

This person is terrible confused and needs your prayers. This person is a woman.

“Interests” and “believing you are a man” are not the same thing. I like football and a number of other “typical” male pursuits but I am not confused and don’t believe I am man.

There are a number of psychological issues that could impact such a belief, as well as chemical and hormonal imbalances. It is a complex issue and like other issues such as same sex attraction, these are very real and the person experiencing them is under serious duress in many cases.

Gender belongs in the realm of grammar. Words have a gender, people have a sex.

Sex most definitely means something.

A very wise and comprehensive post. I am impressed… which is not easy as I am normally so full of myself.LOL