Catholic teaching on heresy and damnation

[Hope2]

I am 68 years old. When I was young, in Catholic school, I was told emphatically that my saintly Lutheran mother would burn in hell if she didn’t become Catholic (she never did). I questioned any priest or nun who would listen, but all said that the doctrine was the doctrine of Christ, as the Holy Spirit had revealed, and therefore could not be changed. It caused me years of pain and fear. I couldn’t believe that such could be God’s will.

I was designated a heretic because of my inability ( it was called my “rejection” ) to ever accept that as God’s judgment., and was told to “recant” in confession whenever I went to communion. I lived in dread of my soul’s damnation. I was told that God let my mom out of hell when Holy Spirit, via the church, “loosed the rule.”" And that my automatic excommunication, for having been a heretic, was also loosed.

Does anyone else find this to be un-Christlike and illogical?

Now, I am still a regular Catholic church goer with five beautiful grandchildren, but there are a few other things I think the magisterium has been dead wrong about.

I taught my children that no human has power over God’s judgment and love. I taught them to study the Bible, go to church, read, pray, and develop a personal and daily relationship with God, as I have always strived to do.They did. I have come to conclude that God alone will judge my reasoning, even if the church magisterium considers me a heretic.

Any thoughts?

 

[adgloriam]

(…)When I was young, in Catholic school, I was told emphatically that my saintly Lutheran mother would burn in hell (…)
Any thoughts?

Sorry [They were obviously dead wrong, sanctity gets you into heaven. And rest assured, among the strongest words of Our Lord in the Gospel is His condemnation of those causing scandal to “the little ones” whoever told you that, went on to pay a high price…]

 

[Spyridon]

Quite ironic.

Whoever taught you what you were originally taught, was in fact espousing a heretical view.

Be at peace.

 

[joeybaggz]

I am 68 years old. When I was young, in Catholic school, I was told emphatically that my saintly Lutheran mother would burn in hell if she didn’t become Catholic (she never did).

Any thoughts?

Your post brought a chuckle to my lips. When I was young, (in the 1950’s) it was my father who was Lutheran and according to many of the knuckle dragging tradcats, couldn’t get to heaven. I told off the nuns that they were wrong and did more than a few stretches in detention. (Fortunately I was going to public school at the time so they couldn’t kick me out of their Catholic Grade School) Anyway, over time, those voices have been, for the most part, (but you can still find a few here on CAF) silenced.

A sermon I once heard (and it was only one of two in my entire 60 some odd years of being catholic that I remember) was about the young rich man and Jesus and the man’s question, “What must I do to have eternal life?” What the homilist said that has stuck with me is that there is a period after Jesus’ answer; “obey the commandments.” Jesus says to the young man that to attain eternal life, one must simply obey the Ten Commandments, period. And what the homilist said that really stuck with me as, if the young man, on hearing Jesus’ simple answer said, Thank you and walked away, Jesus would not have run after him saying something like “Wait, come back, I have more to say, and I have this great one liner about a camel and an eye of the needle.” No, simply, obey the commandments. That answers any question about the question of the eternal fate of those in other denominations not RCC.
Anyway, your post brought back a memory of punishment by the good nuns of a seven year old heretic in the 50’s
Thanks.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Your age being the same as mine, I can tell you, that in the 50’s (before Vatican II made its impact) this was indeed taught in grade schools all over in the US. My wife remembers it well. Personally, none of the nuns I had as teachers were quite so radical. My wife remembers having arguments with her teachers on this subject and being disciplined for such insolence!

However, Vatican II has broadened our Catholic Vision of the Catholic Church, and Salvation as well. There was nothing new taught in Vatican II, but the drift of teachings past were “updated” to reflect Apostolic Truth better. Before Vatican II (and Vatican I) the main catechism that was in effect was the Tridentine (Council of Trent) one, which was in a reactive mode to the upheaval of the Reformation.

 

[Arkansan]

there are a few other things I think the magisterium has been dead wrong about.

Your teachers lacked basic knowledge of the faith, which is unfortunate. There was no change on this matter at VII, see Fr. Feeney’s case for reference.

That said, having had bad teachers as a kid is no excuse for continuing to reject actual teachings of the Church (you haven’t specified, but I’m assuming that you know what they are now).

 

[TigerLily-1]

Ah, the memories!

This was my experience growing up in and going to Catholic school in the 50’s and 60’s. My grandparents were Baptist and the nuns told me my grandparents were going to hell. It terrified me but my mom (who was a Catholic convert), told me that God sending people to hell because they aren’t Catholic is nonsense.

My dad, a Catholic brought up and educated in the 20’s and 30’s in a different area of the US, told me the nuns and priests who taught him never taught him anything like that. Of course, his side of the family were all Irish Catholics and the question may never have come up.

Anyway, the Church doesn’t teach that now.

 

[Hope2]

Thank you for such a prompt response.

My point is that the teachers I had WERE telling me the truth “as they understood it.”.

That is to say, those officials of the Church who formulated the doctrine presumably did their best to be guided by the Holy Spirit in making their Truth claim.

But, my mother either really was in hell, or she was not. They can’t both be true. I realize I am speaking metaphysically here, but the word truth, in English, is a word that refers to what actually IS as opposed to what you BELIEVE it is.

One hopes we all, having the gift of sentience, spend a good bit of thought discerning Truth, as we are created able to do. I am fond of St. Thomas More, on the subject:

"…but man, he [God] made to wrestle with Him in the tangle of his mind…)

I am bound not to ignore the importance of the constant pursuit of communication and with God as the supreme Truth.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

When I was young, in Catholic school, I was told emphatically that my saintly Lutheran mother would burn in hell if she didn’t become Catholic (she never did).

I am sorry you went through that. The Church’s attitude on these matters has changed, a lot. It’s not that the basic doctrine of the faith has changed, but rather the way it is taught and applied. The idea that if you weren’t a Catholic, you were automatically damned went out the window at least back in the 60s when Father Feeney, who was a proponent of that idea, was getting excommunicated. A lot of old-school Catholics agreed with that idea back then as it was how they were raised. The Church was very concerned during the late 1800s and early 1900s about losing its members to the Protestant faith and it tended to come down very hard on the side of “non-Catholic = bad”.

The Church now better expresses that there are ways in which our Christian, but non-Catholic, brothers and sisters can be in harmony with the Church even if they do not join. Of course we think it’s better if they would join, but if they don’t, they can still commune with us in certain ways. Lutherans, like Catholics, are baptized, so that’s one way, and I would think the mere fact that your mom was sending you to a Catholic school would also be a possible way.

I would suggest reading the sections in the Catholic Catechism on unity starting at about section 817 on this page to get a sense of what the Church’s current view is, not what some nun with a problem told you many years ago.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

I would add that the Vatican just issued a stamp commemorating the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, with a picture of Martin Luther on it. There were a bunch of Catholic-Lutheran or otherwise ecumenical services for the anniversary. Does this sound like the act of a Church that truly believes your otherwise good mom would be damned to hell?

As for issues with nuns at school: My mother, a devout Catholic from a devout Catholic family, had issues with how some of the nuns acted in her Catholic school too. Her mother pulled her out of the school and sent her to the public school. This was back in the late 30s or the early 40s and such things were just not done, but some nuns had problems and that’s just how it is. In fairness, it may have related to the way they themselves were formed and treated in their convents.

You are likely to get some pushback whenever you try to say that the Catholic Church was “wrong” about something. I understand what you mean, but there are others who are unable to admit that the fallible humans who run the Church ever could make a mistake because that somehow opens the door to everything being a possible mistake and up for grabs.

Let us continue towards a greater understanding of Christ and hopefully, the healing of old wounds that neither you nor I had anything to do with because the Reformation happened 500 years ago.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Whoever taught you what you were originally taught, was in fact espousing a heretical view.

Yes, that’s true.
Feeneyism, which was considered a heresy.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I was told that God let my mom out of hell when Holy Spirit, via the church, “loosed the rule.”" And that my automatic excommunication, for having been a heretic, was also loosed.

Yeah, this was just a way for the nuns or whoever to avoid having to fess up to the fact that their first statements were dead wrong in the first place.

 

[Hope2]

Thank you, Tis.

I have almost finished a reading of the newest catechism. It is a good resource.

And I was heartened when you reminded me that our Pope honored Luther’s work. He was a man of conscience. I have had extensive study in the history of the early church, and an avid amateur historian.

I am just finishing Eric Metaxas’ new 80- pound biography “Martin Luther.” Beautifully researched and footnoted. I wanted to honor my mom’s devotion to her faith by understanding Lutheranism better.

You are most kind to have replied to me. Thank you.

 

[Joe_5859]

What some have done in the past is take the true Catholic teaching and apply it in the wrong way.

Here is the true Catholic teaching: “Outside the Church, there is no salvation.”

That is dogma. It cannot change. In the past, some interpreted that to mean that only card-carrying Catholics could make it into heaven. But that’s not necessarily true. Here is how the Catechism explains it:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? [335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

[335] Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21L 3,1169; De unit.L 4,509-536.

As Jesus is the one who saves and the Church is his Mystical Body on earth, it naturally follows that anyone who is saved is saved through Christ and the Church. Does this mean the person has to be Catholic in order to be saved? Not necessarily. It simply means that all who are saved are saved through the action of Christ and the Church—whether they recognize it in this life or not.

So you can kind of understand why people back then would interpret the teaching to mean that only Catholics can be saved. But I think the current articulation corresponds much better with our understanding of God’s mercy and our general experience of those who are not Catholic but are still good people.

 

[1ke]

When I was young, in Catholic school, I was told emphatically that my saintly Lutheran mother would burn in hell if she didn’t become Catholic (she never did).

That’s unfortunate. And untrue. It may be true in some cases that those who know the Church to be true refuse to enter Her or remain in Her, and thereby place themselves in jeopardy. That is not true for the majority of people, who, raised in their own faith tradition have no reason to believe the Catholic Church holds the fullness of truth.

I was designated a heretic because of my inability ( it was called my “rejection” ) to ever accept that as God’s judgment., and was told to “recant” in confession whenever I went to communion

Wow, that’s also unfortunate. I’m sorry that you encountered priests and nuns so unable to see the error of their ways. You can’t be a heretic for not believing someone is in hell, as that is (a) not a church doctrine and (b) the Church never pronounces anyone specific in hell and (c) a priest has no authority to say someone is in hell.

Does anyone else find this to be un-Christlike and illogical?

Yes. Crazy, zealot behavior without much thought to the consequences.

have come to conclude that God alone will judge my reasoning, even if the church magisterium considers me a heretic.

Any thoughts?

The Church does NOT call you a heretic. The priests and nuns of your youth are not the magisterium. And, I would encourage you to go talk to your local Catholic pastor.

 

[Hope2]

I just want to thank you all for responding to me. Spyridon wrote, “Be at peace.”

Oh what balm those words always bring. Thank you so very much.

Years ago, one of my Boston College professors (Peter Kreeft) told me to read C.S Lewis’ "Mere Christianity. "It helped me enormously, and I go back to it all the time. I then read most of Lewis’ and Kreeft’s books. I recommend them all.

They helped me to get a handle on my tendency to desire understanding of the letter of the law at the expense of the SPIRIT of the law, as Christ gave it to us.

Thanks and peace to all who so generously helped me out, here.

 

[Joe_5859]

Years ago, one of my Boston College professors (Peter Kreeft)

I’m jealous. Kreeft’s books played a significant role in my spiritual journey in college. I’d have loved to have him as a teacher.

 

[Hope2]

Oh how funny! Yes, Kreeft was /is a brilliant, saintly, and very funny instructor. I try to keep in touch with him.

Would you mind commenting on my previous post:

My point is that the teachers I had WERE telling me the truth “as they understood it.”.

That is to say, those officials of the Church who formulated the doctrine presumably did their best to be guided by the Holy Spirit in making their Truth claim.

But, my mother either really was in hell, or she was not. They can’t both be true. I realize I am speaking metaphysically here, but the word truth, in English, is a word that refers to what actually IS as opposed to what you BELIEVE it is.

One hopes we all, having the gift of sentience, spend a good bit of thought discerning Truth, as we are created able to do. I am fond of St. Thomas More, on the subject:

"…but man, he [God] made to wrestle with Him in the tangle of his mind…)

Thank you.

 

[adgloriam]

My basic thought on this is “Lazarus”, “The Samaritan”, and even “The Good Thief” -they were justified!-as simple as that. And all those of “Good Heart”.

 

[Joe_5859]

My point is that the teachers I had WERE telling me the truth “as they understood it.”.

That is to say, those officials of the Church who formulated the doctrine presumably did their best to be guided by the Holy Spirit in making their Truth claim.

I would say their understanding was deficient. It’s easier for us to see that today in light of the new Catechism, but I’m sympathetic to the fact that they were possibly just doing the best they could. I wasn’t around back then, so I cannot speak from first-hand experience.

Although there are many graces that come with priestly ordination and living the religious life, that doesn’t mean that every priest or nun is guaranteed to always be guided by the Holy Spirit, speaking infallibly or articulating teaching in the best way possible. They can and do make mistakes in this regard, sometimes with very painful consequences. I think that with the resources we have available today (such as the Catechism) it has become much easier for us to see and articulate Catholic teaching as it really is.

 

[Kei]

Sorry about that, but they had an uncorrect understanding.

The magesterium isn’t wrong, what they thought it meant was.
God does not change.