Catholic teaching on sex changes?

[humanavitae]

The questions is what if “someone claims, even since childhood, they have been trapped in the wrong body (gender-wise)”, and they are “convicted” that they are really of the opposite sex and have always acted/felt this way since birth.

Is it okay to get a sex change?

Can anyone point me to a good resource or document where the church takes a stance on sex changes? I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that it is a form of self-mutiliation, but I can’t remember where I read it.

 

[Dale_M]

Oh, boy.

We’ve visited this topic round and round. Many Catholics interpret the Catechism to forbid sex change, invoking the prohibition against mutilation. But there doesn’t seem to be an explicit Church teaching on the matter. However, a secret document from the Vatican was distributed to to the bishops a few years ago which, if news reports are accurate, indicates that the Catholic Church does not recognize gender reassignment.
ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/CatholicTSDecision.html

On the other hand:

The Vatican document’s specific points include:

– An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It
concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain
extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the
patient’s internal turmoil.

So perhaps sex change is acceptable in certain individual cases.

 

[humanavitae]

Perhaps the debate needs to be more focused.
I am not talking about a child born with a mutation (i.e. has both types of genetelia, etc),
I am talking about a perfectly normal-born child with one (fully functional) set of genetelia.

And this kid decides (at an early age) he/she wants to be the opposite gender and thus wants a sex change. Is this situation condoned by the church?

I can understand if a child is born with both sex organs, perhaps, it makes sense to “choose” your sex. and if the choice is later “wrong” or regretted somehow…well, I guess that gets complicated. But lets first answer the “clear-cut” case of some healthy person trying to change their sex becuase they feel “convicted” to change their body.

 

[Dale_M]

Perhaps the debate needs to be more focused.
I am not talking about a child born with a mutation (i.e. has both types of genetelia, etc),
I am talking about a perfectly normal-born child with one (fully functional) set of genetelia.

And this kid decides (at an early age) he/she wants to be the opposite gender and thus wants a sex change. Is this situation condoned by the church?

Apparently, in some circumstances. What you describe is what the Vatican document, sent sub secretum so it isn’t available to the public, addresses.

 

[Bluegoat]

Perhaps the debate needs to be more focused.
I am not talking about a child born with a mutation (i.e. has both types of genetelia, etc),
I am talking about a perfectly normal-born child with one (fully functional) set of genetelia.

And this kid decides (at an early age) he/she wants to be the opposite gender and thus wants a sex change. Is this situation condoned by the church?

I can understand if a child is born with both sex organs, perhaps, it makes sense to “choose” your sex. and if the choice is later “wrong” or regretted somehow…well, I guess that gets complicated. But lets first answer the “clear-cut” case of some healthy person trying to change their sex becuase they feel “convicted” to change their body.

The difficulty with this is that sex is not just about the organs of the body, but also the organs of the brain, and about hormonal influences from the mother during pregnancy. Men don’t “feel” like men because they have penises, it’s because they have the brains of men, which are structurally different than the brains of women. There is a real tendency for people to overlook this, since they can’t see those differences.

There is some good evidence that suggests that people who feel they are trapped in a body of the wrong sex actually have brains that are more characteristic of the opposite sex. This very much gives credence to what such people say, which is that they are not saying such things simply to be perverse. Unfortunately, our understanding of the brain is in many ways limited, and exactly why this may happen is unknown. As I alluded to, some think it may relate to the exposure to hormones in the womb. (And note, a male fetus is exposed to large amount of feminizing hormones these days, due to our use of plastics and other chemicals.)

Additionally, our society does not make much room for people who do not identify as simply male or female, and this seems to be very much the case among traditional Christians. “God made two genders and so you must be one, there could be no mistake or middle ground.” I think this very much puts people in the mindset that they must conform to one gender identity. There have been cultures, incidentally, which simply recognized such people as being something rather different. People who feel this way are often essentially told that they are being deliberately perverse, or lying. Since they KNOW that isn’t true, they reject the religion they are given to understand is saying it. When that happens, it is very much the fault of those that presented it that way.

All this is likely the reason the Vatican doesn’t quite have a definitive answer - we don’t really know quite how all this works in the brain, and the tools doctors have for dealing with the situation are really quite primitive at this point.

So what to do with such a person? Well, what is the age? I would tell a teenager simply that waiting is best until body and mind are finished growing. I would encourage him to find out what is known about the biology of the situation, but to concentrate on other aspects of growing up. I would make it clear that we are loved by God as individuals and not as representatives of a particular class, and that it is part of God’s plan that one day we will be perfectly whatever we were meant to be, even if we need to wait out this imperfect life first.

 

[Elizabeth502]

All of post 5 makes sense, i.m.o., except for the part about gender expectations. That is an external thing, as opposed to an intuited mislignment which I can understand because of clear male/female brain differences. (Everybody should read Brain Sex.)

It’s unacceptable to change your sex organs because society expects you to act in a certain way, or for that matter because you have a utilitarian reason for artificially changing your gender. You should be who you are as God made that core of you and anything else is a cop-out to society and an insult to God. Tough if society has certain expectations of whatever gender you were born with (if that gender is clear and not internally conflicted). It’s making society your God instead of your creator. Maybe God wants you to express the variations in maleness or femaleness. Maybe that’s how God wants to “speak” through you. I can understand the brain/body disconnect when it’s truly there (genitals & hormones not conforming to brain knowledge, as it were). I think the previous poster explained that latter aspect well.

 

[m134e5]

Perhaps the debate needs to be more focused.
I am not talking about a child born with a mutation (i.e. has both types of genetelia, etc),
I am talking about a perfectly normal-born child with one (fully functional) set of genetelia.

And this kid decides (at an early age) he/she wants to be the opposite gender and thus wants a sex change. Is this situation condoned by the church?

I can understand if a child is born with both sex organs, perhaps, it makes sense to “choose” your sex. and if the choice is later “wrong” or regretted somehow…well, I guess that gets complicated. But lets first answer the “clear-cut” case of some healthy person trying to change their sex becuase they feel “convicted” to change their body.

No, it is not acceptable to get a sex change just because you feel like it (no matter how strongly you feel like you are trapped in a body of the wrong sex). If you are physiologically one sex, but your emotional gender does not agree with that at all, you need to get into some major counseling.

 

[Bluegoat]

All of post 5 makes sense, i.m.o., except for the part about gender expectations. That is an external thing, as opposed to an intuited mislignment which I can understand because of clear male/female brain differences. (Everybody should read Brain Sex.)

It’s unacceptable to change your sex organs because society expects you to act in a certain way, or for that matter because you have a utilitarian reason for artificially changing your gender. You should be who you are as God made that core of you and anything else is a cop-out to society and an insult to God. Tough if society has certain expectations of whatever gender you were born with (if that gender is clear and not internally conflicted). It’s making society your God instead of your creator. Maybe God wants you to express the variations in maleness or femaleness. Maybe that’s how God wants to “speak” through you. I can understand the brain/body disconnect when it’s truly there (genitals & hormones not conforming to brain knowledge, as it were). I think the previous poster explained that latter aspect well.

My point wasn’t so much that this is a reason to get a sex change, but that perhaps it is a factor in why people do. And as Christians, I think we often contribute to that rather than help it. So perhaps the first thing we need to do is make sure that we are offering a place where people can just be who they are. And perhaps we need to think seriously about our own expectations. In many churches, including Catholic ones, people would be made very uncomfortable if they didn’t conform in this way, and I think even more, they aren’t given any support on their journey.

 

[aspawloski4th]

No, it is not acceptable to get a sex change just because you feel like it (no matter how strongly you feel like you are trapped in a body of the wrong sex). If you are physiologically one sex, but your emotional gender does not agree with that at all, you need to get into some major counseling.

Change the brain and not the body. won’t, can’t. Tryng to do this manytimes leads to suicide. Glad you don’t run the show.

 

[Elizabeth502]

My point wasn’t so much that this is a reason to get a sex change, but that perhaps it is a factor in why people do. And as Christians, I think we often contribute to that rather than help it. So perhaps the first thing we need to do is make sure that we are offering a place where people can just be who they are. And perhaps we need to think seriously about our own expectations. In many churches, including Catholic ones, people would be made very uncomfortable if they didn’t conform in this way, and I think even more, they aren’t given any support on their journey.

Amen to that, Bluegoat. Again, well-stated.

 

[humanavitae]

Oh, boy.

We’ve visited this topic round and round. Many Catholics interpret the Catechism to forbid sex change, invoking the prohibition against mutilation. But there doesn’t seem to be an explicit Church teaching on the matter. However, a secret document from the Vatican was distributed to to the bishops a few years ago which, if news reports are accurate, indicates that the Catholic Church does not recognize gender reassignment.
ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/CatholicTSDecision.html

On the other hand:

So perhaps sex change is acceptable in certain individual cases.

Thank you for your post of the vatican document. I’m glad the church has taken a stance, albeit secretive, which seems quite prudent and wise.

I’m curious, what made you fall away from the church? have you ever thought about coming back? Please don’t take offense to my questions, but I will pray for your return.

 

[Dale_M]

I’m curious, what made you fall away from the church? have you ever thought about coming back? .

Yes, I have. The Church has been part of my life for 30 years so its not something which is possible for me to simply walk away from. It has shaped who I am. And I have nowhere else to go.

I lost my faith that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, which would make it simply a human institution. And lacking divine guidance, I think organized Christianity falls apart as merely fallible human interpretations and traditions.

But I don’t want to sidetrack this conversation though, so if you have more questions, I would welcome continuing it via PM or even a thread in the Non-Catholic religions forum.

So what to do with such a person? Well, what is the age? I would tell a teenager simply that waiting is best until body and mind are finished growing. I would encourage him to find out what is known about the biology of the situation, but to concentrate on other aspects of growing up. I would make it clear that we are loved by God as individuals and not as representatives of a particular class, and that it is part of God’s plan that one day we will be perfectly whatever we were meant to be, even if we need to wait out this imperfect life first.

I agree with Elizabeth502 that Bluegoat has done a good job discussing the transsexual situation. The one possible disagreement I might have would be the use of hormonal blocking drugs (which, to be fair, Bluegoat doesn’t mention.) Such drugs temporarily block the development of secondary sex characteristics. This is important since the changes to bone structure in adolescence are irreversible, which can make blending as male or female later in life more difficult.

If these drugs are no longer taken, adolescent development resumes. I think the use of such drugs are a good idea for teens who consider themselves transsexual because it buys them time to consider their situation, as they concentrate on other aspects of growing up.

Thank you for your post of the vatican document. I’m glad the church has taken a stance, albeit secretive, which seems quite prudent and wise.

Yes, it seems a sensible middle ground. According to some reports the Church needed to address matters of priesthood and religious life, which is why the document was issued. But as Bluegoat mentioned, much is still unknown about the phenomenon of transsexualism. My guess is that the document was sent sub secretum because the Vatican doesn’t want to take a public stance on transsexualism until the science is better understood. But that is just my guess.

 

[Jack17]

The Church probably saids it’s a sin.

It’s your life, and I don’t hold judgment on others though. Who cares what others do about their own happiness, and I rather have that person switch then commit suicide because of depression.

Suicide is a worse sin in my eyes, and that’s usually the case if they don’t switch. So just switch, and don’t put yourself in that situation. I rather have a person alive man or woman than not alive at all.

 

[Bluegoat]

I agree with Elizabeth502 that Bluegoat has done a good job discussing the transsexual situation. The one possible disagreement I might have would be the use of hormonal blocking drugs (which, to be fair, Bluegoat doesn’t mention.) Such drugs temporarily block the development of secondary sex characteristics. This is important since the changes to bone structure in adolescence are irreversible, which can make blending as male or female later in life more difficult.

If these drugs are no longer taken, adolescent development resumes. I think the use of such drugs are a good idea for teens who consider themselves transsexual because it buys them time to consider their situation, as they concentrate on other aspects of growing up.

I’m not convinced that such drugs are very healthy, there isn’t a lot of population that has the need to take them, so it’s hard to judge unintended effects. I think I would be afraid to take them myself, or for my child to take them. They seem so systematic.

I wonder too, if the body is being prevented from maturing, what effect that has on the effect of maturation of the brain and mind (and a mature brain and mind are what you need to make a decision on an issue like this.) I wonder if the person doesn’t mature bodily if they are missing out on a chance to begin to understand/become comfortable in the body they have. If secondary sexual characteristics don’t develop, what about the effects on the brain, which is influenced by the horomones that initiate those changes?

To be honest, I wouldn’t be inclined to recommend a surgical sex change to anyone either if they thought they could manage without it, I don’t think it’s a very effective operation, it just seems so brutal. But I don’t have much of a solution to offer, other than to try and simply create an environment where people can exist honestly and comfortably.

 

[mlchance]

Food for thought: Surgical Sex by Paul McHugh. McHugh is University Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Food for thought: Surgical Sex by Paul McHugh. McHugh is University Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University.

– Mark L. Chance.

He’s never actually treated a transsexual patient. His specialty is drug addiction. He also recommended that the Church not co-operate with secular authorities when it came to investigating claims of child abuse - with the consequences we all know about. The damage his advice did to the Church is incalculable. The damage he did to the victims, even worse.

His work has never appeared in any medical journals, only religious ones, as it is based on pre-conceived philosophical notions rather than scientific evidence - which he ignores completely. He has integrity though, admitting this in his writings. He’d made up his mind long before being put in charge at Johns Hopkins, and has said as much.

For another view, see ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Bailey/McHugh/McHugh%20on%20Transsexualism.htm

 

[Lethe]

Perhaps the debate needs to be more focused.
I am not talking about a child born with a mutation (i.e. has both types of genetelia, etc),
I am talking about a perfectly normal-born child with one (fully functional) set of genetelia.

And this kid decides (at an early age) he/she wants to be the opposite gender and thus wants a sex change. Is this situation condoned by the church?

I can understand if a child is born with both sex organs, perhaps, it makes sense to “choose” your sex. and if the choice is later “wrong” or regretted somehow…well, I guess that gets complicated. But lets first answer the “clear-cut” case of some healthy person trying to change their sex becuase they feel “convicted” to change their body.

Sex organs dont define sex, chromasomes do. Technically, even if someone has a penis and testicles which are fully functioning, they are female if they have XX chromasomes. And vice versa.

But I would agree with others that whatever the chromasomes, sex organs, hormones etc, some people’s brains just do not agree with them being the sex they are. I mean, I’ve heard stories as part of my education, about people so desperate that they actually attack themselves and will try to change themselves if they do not have the surgery.

I think anyone with serious gender identity issues should get medical and psychiatric help, and see what they advise.

 

[Ma.Eugenia]

The questions is what if “someone claims, even since childhood, they have been trapped in the wrong body (gender-wise)”, and they are “convicted” that they are really of the opposite sex and have always acted/felt this way since birth.

Is it okay to get a sex change? .

In my opinion, it is not okay. The Bible says, God created man and woman. There is no mention of “in-between genders”.

For one thing, when a person allows himself/herself to be surgically changed to resemble the opposite sex…their sex chromosomes XX or XY remains as is --and that can never be changed.

That means, they forever remain their original sex no matter how they change their outward appearance. A man who changes himself physically to resemble a woman still has the XY chromosome that defines his gender as male. Same goes for a woman who has the XX chromosome.

I remember a professor once asked a male gay classemate if he ever wanted to have children sometime in the future. My classmate said that he wants to…but not just yet.

When he was asked by another professor if he had parents who affected his way of thinking…he said that he had an overly strict father. So, my guess…(though, I admit, I am guessing)…is that his not being close to his father drove him to become closer to his mom, acquiring a more feminine outlook in life.

My opinion is that many “gays” are not born that way, but become one because of certain life experiences.

To me, even though I do not think that God created in-between genders, I think people who claim to be"gays" are as loved God as everyone else. Not all people with the “tendency” to become the opposite sex follow through in action. Still…even if they did, we have to hate the sin but love the sinner always.

There are many “effeminate” men who remain men…and boyish women who remain women throughout their life,

For me, it is best to pray to God to help those who are confused about their gender so that they will be enlightened…

 

[Zoe_Brain]

For one thing, when a person allows himself/herself to be surgically changed to resemble the opposite sex…their sex chromosomes XX or XY remains as is --and that can never be changed.

That means, they forever remain their original sex no matter how they change their outward appearance. A man who changes himself physically to resemble a woman still has the XY chromosome that defines his gender as male. Same goes for a woman who has the XX chromosome.

Sigh.

A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9

You’d classify this woman as a man, then. I think that is most original, even eccentric.
It’s not that simple. Perhaps if we say this often enough, the message will finally penetrate.

It’s true that most men have 46XY chromosomes, and most women have 46XX chromosomes. But not all. It’s also true that most men are taller than most women. But not all. We could just as well say “tall means male, short means female” using your logic.

The Bible says, God created man and woman. There is no mention of “in-between genders”.

Matthew 19:12, first line: For there are some Eunuchs born of their mother’s womb… or as we’d say now, congenitally intersexed. “Eunuch” in the Biblical sense refers to the intersexed, the castrated, and the celibate interchangeably. Matthew 19:12, enumerates each separately, each category a type of Eunuch…

Isaiah 56:5 promises that the reward for Eunuchs is “a name better than sons or daughters”, implying that they are neither one nor the other. Now assuming your “46XY is male, 46XX is female” idea is true, with no other alternatve, then people with Kleinfelter syndrome (47XXY) cannot exist. They do - some look female, amd have given birth. But most look male, and some have fathered children. And a significant number who were born looking male have surgery so they look female - they are trans women.

It’s not that simple. Perhaps if we say this often enough, the message will finally penetrate.

My opinion is that many “gays” are not born that way, but become one because of certain life experiences.

Let’s say that that’s true, for the sake of argument. What has it got to do with transsexuality? Some trans women are lesbian, and some are straight. Some trans men are gay, and some are straight. A large number are asexual.

Please, for all that is Holy, have a look at the other threads on this issue. Your misconceptions are typical of most people, but we really have made extreme efforts to place before you the facts.

You’ve managed to elucidate all three common and deeply mistaken ideas about trans issues held only by the ignorant:

1. That XY is male, XX is female, end of story.
2. That there are no Intersexed people, because they’re not in the Bible
3. That they’re all really just Gay.

Congratulations.

It’s not that simple. Perhaps if we say this often enough, the message will finally penetrate.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

For me, it is best to pray to God to help those who are confused about their gender so that they will be enlightened…

The important thing here is that you are acting with Charity. And that I truly appreciate. Compared to the Biology, that’s more important by far. OK, you have your facts completely wrong, but that’s a minor error in comparison. You get the point of Matthew 22:35-40, to Love God, and Be KInd, and the rest is commentary, mere detail.

There is one thing though: I’m not confused about my gender. But you, and many like you, are.

All the best, for you’ve got the most important thing, to act with Charity, right.1 Corinthians 13:2 says:

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Knowing the biological facts is not enough. In fact, both Faith and Scientific expertise are unimportant, comparatively. One must be motivated by Charity, otherwise all our vaunted knowledge, our oh-so-impressive scientific expertise in the area, and our Intellectual achievements are valueless. And would be even if our knowledge was far more complete.

You have the important thing right. I’ll try to follow your worthy example.