Catholic teaching on societal roles

[Mickey]

vern humphrey:

I agree with you 100%.

But I go on to ask, “If being poor is a virtue (as some seem to claim) and we are all virtuous – who will build the hospitals, schools, and so on? To whom will the really destitute turn?”

We agree that the “rich” should give to the poor (sometimes through forced taxation.) I suggest that a healthy person who fails to use the talents God gave him is no better than a “rich” man who acts like a miser.

Perhaps I have missed a post. Did someone say that being poor, (as in lack of money and property etc), is virtuous in itself? I do not agree with this.

 

[Loboto-Me]

Do you actually think that a talent and gift can ONLY be used in one area of life? At the top, or can it also be used at the bottom of the barrel? What about ex drug addicts who stay in the streets to help others? Just because they do have the capacity to open a detox centre, do you actually think that would be the best use of his gift? Would you not think that just being with those who are users and encouraging them to change their lives might be a better use of this guys experience?

You’re forgetting that God ALLOWS things to happen, it doesn’t have to be His Will that moves people on. Poop happens, does that mean it’s His Will? Out of the poop, God can work miracles.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Mickey:

Perhaps I have missed a post. Did someone say that being poor, (as in lack of money and property etc), is virtuous in itself? I do not agree with this.

We have and people say this, both directly and indirectly. For example, a post from St. John Chrystostom was cited:

**In the matter of piety, poverty serves us better than wealth, and work better than idleness, especially since wealth becomes an obstacle even for those who do not devote themselves to it. **

Now, St. John Chrystostom did not live in an era of free markets and open competition – he lived in an era where people were born into their places in society and expected to stay there. Yet he is quoted as if he meant to praise poverty per se and condemn those who succeed financially by their own work.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Loboto-Me:

Do you actually think that a talent and gift can ONLY be used in one area of life? At the top, or can it also be used at the bottom of the barrel?

By and large, those who use their God-given talents move from the bottom upward.

Loboto-Me:

What about ex drug addicts who stay in the streets to help others? Just because they do have the capacity to open a detox centre, do you actually think that would be the best use of his gift? Would you not think that just being with those who are users and encouraging them to change their lives might be a better use of this guys experience?

In many cases, people have talents that are best used directly – as in your case of the ex-drug addict.

But if such a person has talents that go beyond merely counciling, then he should use them. After all, experience shows that drug users who have been encouraged to change their lives need detox centers.

Loboto-Me:

You’re forgetting that God ALLOWS things to happen, it doesn’t have to be His Will that moves people on. Poop happens, does that mean it’s His Will? Out of the poop, God can work miracles.

He often works them through the agency of people – people who maximize the talents He gives them.

 

[Mickey]

**In the matter of piety, poverty serves us better than wealth, and work better than idleness, especially since wealth becomes an obstacle even for those who do not devote themselves to it. **

I see deeper meaning here Vern. Let me make some substitutions.

In the matter of piety, virtue serves us better than the passions, and prayer better than sloth, especially since greed becomes an obstacle even for those who do not devote themselves to it.

Copy the whole quote next time vern.

Blessed is the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of God.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Mickey:

I see deeper meaning here Vern. Let me make some substitutions.

In the matter of piety, virtue serves us better than the passions, and prayer better than sloth, especially since greed becomes an obstacle even for those who do not devote themselves to it.

That’s how I see this.

Blessed is the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of God.

Which would not make this a statement relating to economics at all.

One can pray and work at the same time. One can work for the benefit of others. And, if one has the talent, that’s what one should do.

 

[Mickey]

vern humphrey:

Which would not make this a statement relating to economics at all.

One can pray and work at the same time. One can work for the benefit of others. And, if one has the talent, that’s what one should do.

Exactly! It’s not about economics vern. Economics is of this world. It will pass away. Seek the kingdom of God.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Mickey:

Exactly! It’s not about economics vern. Economics is of this world. It will pass away. Seek the kingdom of God.

That’s not exactly true – examine the Ten Commandments and you will see that only three relate to man’s relationship to God, and the remaining seven relate to man’s relationship to man.

We cannot neglect our duty to our fellow man and claim to be truly seeking the kingdom of God.

As I said, someone must build the hospitals and schools and so on. Who will do that?

 

[Mickey]

vern humphrey:

That’s not exactly true – examine the Ten Commandments and you will see that only three relate to man’s relationship to God, and the remaining seven relate to man’s relationship to man.

We cannot neglect our duty to our fellow man and claim to be truly seeking the kingdom of God.

As I said, someone must build the hospitals and schools and so on. Who will do that?

Man’s relationship to man is like man’s relationship to God. “Love your neighbor as yourself”. If a wealthy man builds a children’s hospital, a school, a homeless shelter etc., he is doing the will of God.

God bless you,
Mickey

 

[vern_humphrey]

Mickey:

Man’s relationship to man is like man’s relationship to God. “Love your neighbor as yourself”. If a wealthy man builds a children’s hospital, a school, a homeless shelter etc., he is doing the will of God.

God bless you,
Mickey

And if that wealthy man refuses, and hordes his wealth, does he not do wrong?

And if another man, being fully capable of doing what that rich man could do, and fails to do what he has the God-given talent to do, is he not doing the same thing?

 

[Mickey]

vern humphrey:

And if that wealthy man refuses, and hordes his wealth, does he not do wrong?

And if another man, being fully capable of doing what that rich man could do, and fails to do what he has the God-given talent to do, is he not doing the same thing?

**Just as the poor should give thanks to God and return rich love to those who assist them, so all the more should the wealthy give thanks, for through God’s providence they are able to perform acts of charity and so are saved both in this age and in the age to be. For without the poor they cannot save their souls or flee the temptations of wealth. **
St. Simeon the New Theologian

**The bread you do not use is the bread of the hungry. The garment hanging in your wardrobe is the garment of the person who is naked. The shoes you do not wear are the shoes of the one who is barefoot. The money you keep locked away is the money of the poor. The acts of charity you do not perform are the injustices you commit. **
St. Basil the Great 4th century

 

[vern_humphrey]

**Just as the poor should give thanks to God and return rich love to those who assist them, so all the more should the wealthy give thanks, for through God’s providence they are able to perform acts of charity and so are saved both in this age and in the age to be. For without the poor they cannot save their souls or flee the temptations of wealth. **
St. Simeon the New Theologian

**The bread you do not use is the bread of the hungry. The garment hanging in your wardrobe is the garment of the person who is naked. The shoes you do not wear are the shoes of the one who is barefoot. The money you keep locked away is the money of the poor. The acts of charity you do not perform are the injustices you commit. **
St. Basil the Great 4th century

My point exactly – the acts of charity we do not perform, but could if we’d maximize the talent God gives us are the injustices we commit.

 

[Mickey]

vern humphrey:

My point exactly – the acts of charity we do not perform, but could if we’d maximize the talent God gives us are the injustices we commit.

 

[cynic]

This kind of vague argument doesn’t interest me. I don’t see anything wrong with having money, or some people having more than others based on what they do, but vern according to you:

(and please help us out here, indulge us, I’ve done my best to to break it down as simply as possible, yes or no would suffice…)

*Should the government pay for public shools through general taxation - or should parents be the only ones responsible for paying for their childrens education?

*Should there be labour laws that require employers give employees things like lunch breaks and holiday time - Or should those things be up to employer discretion?

*Should taxation be graduated or flat?

*Should the government help with low income peoples health insurance (medicaid, is that what you have…?) or should that be the sole resposiblity of the individual regardless of income?

thankyou

 

[vern_humphrey]

cynic:

This kind of vague argument doesn’t interest me. I don’t see anything wrong with having money, or some people having more than others based on what they do, but vern according to you:

(and please help us out here, indulge us, I’ve done my best to to break it down as simply as possible, yes or no would suffice…)

*Should the government pay for public shools through general taxation - or should parents be the only ones responsible for paying for their childrens education?

What’s that got to do with the price of eggs?

Someone must pay for the schools – whether through taxes or voluntary contributions.

And some parents will not be able to bear the full cost of their children’s education – should those children grow up illiterate?

*Should there be labour laws that require employers give employees things like lunch breaks and holiday time - Or should those things be up to employer discretion?

*Should taxation be graduated or flat?

*Should the government help with low income peoples health insurance (medicaid, is that what you have…?) or should that be the sole resposiblity of the individual regardless of income?

thankyou

Again, what’s all this got to do with the price of eggs?

Someone must pay.