(Catholic Teaching) should trouble you deeply

[guanophore]

It is relevant for the mere fact that even with a magisterium you don’t have have any certainty what passages or verses of scripture mean since they have never interpreted most of them. Just as i can have errant interpretations so do all catholics. This means also you must interpret and be your own authority.

No, JA4, it does not mean that. We have a magesterium, so we can trust in the Teachings we are given, that they are the ones handed down from the Apostles. You notice that Jesus did not “infallibly interpret all the scriptures” when he taught either!

Claiming 20 verses gives you no advantage in those areas where verses have not been infallibly interpreted.

Curious allegation to make, from one who denies infallible interpretation. I suppose if all the “verses” were interpreted, you would find some other spurious allegation to make. Perhaps you don’t realize that the original scriptures didn’t even HAVE verses, which were created by Catholics.

I know your church tries to do this but it fails when it comes to the marian doctrines.

JA4, you seem to be here to point out the errors and “failings” that you see in Catholicism. Why is that such an important ministry for you? Do you imagine that you are weeding out tares from the King’s field?

From my understanding it was made centuries after it supposedly happened.

Why so much energy put into what you consider “suppositions”?

The other more serious issue is your church is dogmatic about this that it did happen even though there is no evidence for it from the 1st century. It is a speculative claim.

OK. Supposing, for the sake of arguement, that the Catholic Church really is making “speculative claims”. Why does it bother you so much?

It should not sadden you but trouble you deeply about the claims your church makes about this. Not only is it not in scripture but there is no real historical evidence for it.

What is even more curious to me is why it seems to troubleYOU so deeply!

What do you mean by “the more fanciful propaganda concerning the Catholic Church”?

That which is evident in this post, about how Catholics should not trust the Magesterium, and should be deeply troubled about their faith.

Has your church ever infallibly interpreted the verses used by you and others to say that she was without sin?

How is this question at all relevant, since you don’t believe in infalliblity anyway?

Keep in mind what is at stake here. If Mary was without sin then it contradicts what the scriptures clearly teach that all men born from human parents are sinners.

Is this what is at stake for you, JA4? If you accepted the Marian doctrines, you would have to admit that the way you have understood the scripture all this time is wrong?

This is not about the Holy Spirit revealing something but what do the scriptures teach.

Do you believe the HS cannot reveal anything that is not in the Scripture? Is your understanding of the HS really that limited?

We can study all the texts related to this doctrine and never come to the conclusion that she was without sin.

Clearly this is true, since that is what happened to you!

What i reject is what your church seemingly teaches because the scriptures don’t teach such a thing about her.

We all understand that, JA4. What is puzzling is why you are on CAF, your beliefs being what they are.

The word of Christ does not support the idea she was without sin though.

The word that you have received, clearly.

I have read quite a bit on this from catholic sources. We both cannot be right. One is telling the truth the other is not. Let the Scriptures decide who is speaking the truth and who is not. I stand on the Scriptures.

Do you remember what Jesus told the disciples to do when they could not agree?

Matt 18:17
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."

You have put something in authority that was not ordained by Christ.

 

[PhilVaz]

JA4 << Keep in mind what is at stake here. If Mary was without sin then it contradicts what the scriptures clearly teach that all men born from human parents are sinners. >>

guan << Is this what is at stake for you, JA4? If you accepted the Marian doctrines, you would have to admit that the way you have understood the scripture all this time is wrong? >>

Best book on this doctrine:

The Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God by Archbishop Ullathorne

Also available from GoogleBooks and as PDF download.

I ordered a used copy thru www.AbeBooks.com – maybe I’ll come up with a new article based on the book like my awesome Assumption article.

Phil P

 

[fellowChristian]

If Scripture seems to contradict itself then it is because of our own personal interpretations of it.

**2 Peter 1:20 **

But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

Sometimes Scripture is hard to understand.We have to be sure of what it says.Because we could get it wrong.

**2 Peter 3:15-16 **
and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,

as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

And to say “all have sinned” there must be more to Scripture then we read, because Jesus did not sin,babies do not sin,and those who are mentally challenged could not sin. So can you say for sure that is what the Bible meant?

Something else to ponder. Where did we get the Bible? Who decide on which books to place in there? It couldn’t have been any of the Protestant Denominations they are only 490 years old. So then who?

Ever heard of the Ark of the Covenant?From the Old Testament?

Why was it so important? What did it contain?

**1.**the tablets of God’s written word

2.the bread that fell from heaven-Manna.

3.the rod of Aaron.

Catholic’s call Mary the Ark of the New Covenant.

Why?

1.in her was the Word made Flesh.

2.in her was the Bread of Life.

3.in her was the High Priest.

God created Eve without sin why not Mary?

Compare
Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11

Scripture Catholic on Mary
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-IV

Ark of the new covenant
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112fea1.asp

Catholic Answers
catholic.com/library/immaculate_conception_and_assum.asp

 

[BlaineTog]

JA4 << Keep in mind what is at stake here. If Mary was without sin then it contradicts what the scriptures clearly teach that all men born from human parents are sinners. >>

This doesn’t work, because Mary was born from human parents.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

It seems to me that “justasking” does not want answers, but merely wants to say that the Church is wrong in its beliefs and teachings. I read in his posts, many specious arguments used, which are wrong in their supposition. I have found over the years, that debating with one like this, who is not interested is what we say, but merely putting down the Church and its beliefs is futile. Justasking, you are in my prayers.
Deacon Ed B