Catholic Thinking in Protestant songs

[Grace_Seeker]

I’m glad that so many are seeing the “Catholicity” in some of these CCM songs, many written by protestant Christians. Maybe that points out there really isn’t as much difference in protestant and Catholic theology as some would like to make out. Certainly, the animosity that some seem to focus on is, in my opinion, more artificial than real. Thus is doesn’t surprise me to see Catholics singing “protestant” songs nor protestants writing “Catholic” songs.

 

[Contarini]

Certainly the Catholic heritage of the West is preserved somewhat in Christmas songs and traditions, hence the “infant Jesus” overlap. As for the others, I’m not familiar with any CCM songs; but I do know that in the specific hymnal that my church uses (Living Hymns), faithfulness to the evangelical tradition was paramount in the editors’ selection process and the hymns do not betray any non-Protestant influence

That would rule out the Bible as an influence. Shucks, more than two-thirds of the Bible isn’t even Christian!

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Those are a few out of many. Once again, the main thrust of Protestant hymns is based on ‘I’ and ‘me’; Catholic hymns and songs are more corporate with ‘we’ and ‘our’. Protestant hymns that are corporate have no problem being sung in Catholic churches. Most of the songs noted above have Catholic origins.

Not in the sense of post-Reformation “Roman” Catholicism. Obviously all Christianity has Catholic origins in the sense that it all goes back to pre-Reformation Catholicism.

You are responding to specific examples by claiming without evidence that they are exceptions. You have made absolutely no case so far. You simply assert that there is a “main thrust” that is individual as opposed to corporate. How about actually substantiating what you are saying, using the 1989 UMC Hymnal (since you say you are familiar with Methodist hymnody)?

Here’s a radical thought: why does it have to be an either/or? Why is the first person singular to be excluded from Christian worship? It’s clear that Protestant hymnody does not lack a sense of the corporate, from the examples O.S.Luke gave. Your accusation seems to be that we talk both about “we” and about “I.”

What’s your stand on the Nicene Creed–should it be “I” or “we”?

Edwin

 

[lak611]

What’s your stand on the Nicene Creed–should it be “I” or “we”?

I support the new translation which will be in use in the next revision of the liturgy. It is being changed back to “I believe”. That just makes more sense to me. I can state what I believe, but I have no way of knowing the heart of the person standing next to me in the pew. I cannot speak for him, only for myself. “I believe” is a better translation of the Creed.

 

[ginger7681]

I don’t get your issue with Protestant songs focusing on “I” or “me” more than “we”, “us”, or “our”. My mission is to make disciples of all nations and lead them to Christ through the calling of the Holy Spirit. Once I have introduced that person to Christ and the Holy Spirit has led them to faith in Jesus as his or her Lord and Savior, I must let God work in their heart. At the end of the day “my” relationship and faith in Christ is what will secure my mansion in heaven

 

[Grace_Seeker]

Those are a few out of many. Once again, the main thrust of Protestant hymns is based on ‘I’ and ‘me’; Catholic hymns and songs are more corporate with ‘we’ and ‘our’. Protestant hymns that are corporate have no problem being sung in Catholic churches. Most of the songs noted above have Catholic origins.

I think I am beginning to see what you mean. All one has to do is open the United Methodist Hymnal and begin thumbing through it:

Holy, Holy, Holy! Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to thee.

wrods by Anglican Bishop, Reginald Heber​

Joyful, joyful, we adore thee.

Presbyterian author and educator, Henry van ****​

To God be the glory, great things he hath done!
So loved he the world that he gave us his Son.

Methodist hymnwriter, Fanny Crosby​

Christ the Lord is risen today…
Ours the cross the grave the skies

Anglican priest, Charles Wesley​

Now thank we all our God

Lutheran pastor, Martin Rinkart​

Immortal, invisible, God only wise,
In light inexcessible hid from our eyes.

Free Church minister, Walter Chalmers Smith​

O God, our help in ages past.

Dissenter (type of Puritan) pastor, Isaac Watts​

El Shaddai, El Shaddai…
we will praise and lift you high. El Shaddai.

protestant CCM musician and songwriter, Michael Card​

They’ll know we are Christians by our love

protestant music professor, Peter Scholtes​

Not to mention,
A mighty fortress is our God.
But I’ll grant you that was written by a Catholic priest.

 

[lak611]

I think I am beginning to see what you mean. All one has to do is open the United Methodist Hymnal and begin thumbing through it:

Holy, Holy, Holy! Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to thee.

wrods by Anglican Bishop, Reginald Heber​

Joyful, joyful, we adore thee.

Presbyterian author and educator, Henry van ****​

To God be the glory, great things he hath done!
So loved he the world that he gave us his Son.

Methodist hymnwriter, Fanny Crosby​

Christ the Lord is risen today…
Ours the cross the grave the skies

Anglican priest, Charles Wesley​

Now thank we all our God

Lutheran pastor, Martin Rinkart​

Immortal, invisible, God only wise,
In light inexcessible hid from our eyes.

Free Church minister, Walter Chalmers Smith​

O God, our help in ages past.

Dissenter (type of Puritan) pastor, Isaac Watts​

El Shaddai, El Shaddai…
we will praise and lift you high. El Shaddai.

protestant CCM musician and songwriter, Michael Card​

They’ll know we are Christians by our love

protestant music professor, Peter Scholtes​

Not to mention,
A mighty fortress is our God.
But I’ll grant you that was written by a Catholic priest.

Come, Thou long expected Jesus
Born to set Thy people free;
From our fears and sins release us,
Let us find our rest in Thee.

also by Charles Wesley

 

[lak611]

In the Methodist Hymnal, you will even find this one:

Faith of our fathers, holy faith! We will be true to thee till death.

Text: Frederick W. Faber, 1814-1863 (Catholic priest)

hymnsite.com/

 

[Grace_Seeker]

In the Methodist Hymnal, you will even find this one:Text: Frederick W. Faber, 1814-1863 (Catholic priest)

hymnsite.com/

Yes. There are a lot of hymns in the United Methodist hymnal that do have Catholic origins. And we are glad to sing them.

I was only trying to respond to the idea that Peary presented that the main thrust of protestant origin hymns are “I” and “me” centered and that the more corporate hymns are of Catholic origins. While no doubt you can find some hymns that fit that way of viewing the world of hymnody, there are many that do not. My suggestion is that such a statement is an over generalization, perhaps even creates a false dichotomy where none need be created.

 

[lak611]

Yes. There are a lot of hymns in the United Methodist hymnal that do have Catholic origins. And we are glad to sing them.

I was only trying to respond to the idea that Peary presented that the main thrust of protestant origin hymns are “I” and “me” centered and that the more corporate hymns are of Catholic origins. While no doubt you can find some hymns that fit that way of viewing the world of hymnody, there are many that do not. My suggestion is that such a statement is an over generalization, perhaps even creates a false dichotomy where none need be created.

I agree with you. That’s why I added a couple more hymns, one Protestant in origin (which we glady sing in our church too) and one Catholic in origin. We sing many of the hymns that are in the Methodist hymnal, and you are correct in that there are many that are corporate.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

I agree with you. That’s why I added a couple more hymns, one Protestant in origin (which we glady sing in our church too) and one Catholic in origin. We sing many of the hymns that are in the Methodist hymnal, and you are correct in that there are many that are corporate.

Thanks for that. I get so tired of finding nearly everything on this forum having to break down into a fight between protestant and Catholic, as if the only way to build one up is to tear the other down. I don’t think that Jesus meant it that way, and I don’t think that pointing fingers at one another for “starting it first” does anything but make us look like 5 year olds. (I also don’t think that is what Jesus meant by, “you must become like little children”.)

In the words of that great theologian, Ringo Starr, “Can’t we all just get along?”

 

[lak611]

Thanks for that. I get so tired of finding nearly everything on this forum having to break down into a fight between protestant and Catholic, as if the only way to build one up is to tear the other down. I don’t think that Jesus meant it that way, and I don’t think that pointing fingers at one another for “starting it first” does anything but make us look like 5 year olds. (I also don’t think that is what Jesus meant by, “you must become like little children”.)

In the words of that great theologian, Ringo Starr, “Can’t we all just get along?”

I agree with you. All of us need to be charitable.

 

[peary]

The top 20 Protestant hymns are:
“Amazing Grace” *
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like* me**…
**I **once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.

“Here I Am, Lord” (writtten by J. Foley, a Catholic; however, it has become a favorite in Protestant churches):
Here I am, Lord. Is it I, Lord? **I **have heard you calling in the night. **I **will go, Lord, if you lead me. **I **will hold your people in my heart

*“How Great Thou Art” *
O Lord **my **God, When I in awesome wonder,
Consider all the worlds Thy Hands have made;
**I **see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed.

“Hymn of Promise”
(uses the corporate ‘our’ and ‘we’)

*“Blessed Assurance” *
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
This is my story, this is my song,
praising my Savior all the day long

“Spirit Song” (uses ‘your’ and 'you)

*“In the Garden” *
**I **come to the garden alone…
And the voice **I **hear…
And He walks with me
And He talks with me
And He tells me I am His own

*“O for a Thousand Tongues to Sing” *O for a thousand tongues to sing
my great Redeemer’s praise,
the glories of my God and King,
the triumphs of his grace!

“Old Rugged Cross” So I’ll **cherish the old rugged cross,
Till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
And exchange it some day for a crown.

“Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee” (uses corporate ‘we’)

“There’s a Sweet, Sweet Spirit In this Place” *
There’s a sweet, sweet spirit in this place,
And* I** know that it’s the spirit of the Lord;

*“Because He Lives” *Because He lives, **I **can face tomorrow.
Because He lives, All fear is gone.
Because I know He holds the future,
And life is worth the living just because He lives.

*“Great Is Thy Faithfulness” *
Great is Thy faithfulness!
Great is Thy faithfulness!
Morning by morning new mercies **I **see.
All **I **have needed Thy hand hath provided;
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me!

“Holy, Holy, Holy” (uses the corporate ‘we’ and 'our)

“Jesu, Jesu” (uses the corporate ‘we’ ‘us’ ‘our’)

“Majesty”
Here I am humbled by your Majesty
Covered by your grace so free
Here I am, knowing I’m a sinful man
Covered by the blood of the Lamb

*“Surely It Is God Who Saves Me”*Surely it is God who saves me;
**I **shall trust and have no fear.
For the Lord defends and shields me
and his saving help is near.
So rejoice as you draw water
from salvation’s healing spring;
in the day of your deliverance
thank the Lord, his mercies sing.

“Victory in Jesus”
**I **heard an old, old story,
How a Savior came from glory,
How He gave His life on Calvary
To save a wretch like me;
I heard about His groaning,
Of His precious blood’s atoning,
Then **I **repented of my sins
And won the victory.
Chorus:O victory in Jesus,
My Savior, forever.
He sought me and bought me
With His redeeming blood;
He loved me ere I knew Him
And all my love is due Him,
He plunged me to victory,
Beneath the cleansing flood.

“Marching to Zion/Come We that Love the Lord” (uses ‘we’ ‘our’)

*“Precious Lord, Take My Hand” *
Precious Lord, take my hand,
Lead **me **on, let me stand,
I am tired, I am weak, I am worn;
Through the storm, through the night,
Lead me on to the light

This is just to show that Protestant theology, with it’s emphasis on “Jesus and me” is abundant in protestant hymns across the board. You really don’t find it like that in Catholic hymns and songs as a general rule.

 

[lak611]

The top 20 Protestant hymns are:
“Amazing Grace” *
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like* me**…
**I **once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.

“Here I Am, Lord” (writtten by J. Foley, a Catholic; however, it has become a favorite in Protestant churches):
Here I am, Lord. Is it I, Lord? **I **have heard you calling in the night. **I **will go, Lord, if you lead me. **I **will hold your people in my heart

*“How Great Thou Art” *
O Lord **my **God, When I in awesome wonder,
Consider all the worlds Thy Hands have made;
**I **see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed.

“Hymn of Promise”
(uses the corporate ‘our’ and ‘we’)

*“Blessed Assurance” *
Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine!
This is my story, this is my song,
praising my Savior all the day long

“Spirit Song” (uses ‘your’ and 'you)

*“In the Garden” *
**I **come to the garden alone…
And the voice **I **hear…
And He walks with me
And He talks with me
And He tells me I am His own

*“O for a Thousand Tongues to Sing” *O for a thousand tongues to sing
my great Redeemer’s praise,
the glories of my God and King,
the triumphs of his grace!

“Old Rugged Cross” So I’ll **cherish the old rugged cross,
Till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
And exchange it some day for a crown.

“Joyful, Joyful We Adore Thee” (uses corporate ‘we’)

“There’s a Sweet, Sweet Spirit In this Place” *
There’s a sweet, sweet spirit in this place,
And* I** know that it’s the spirit of the Lord;

*“Because He Lives” *Because He lives, **I **can face tomorrow.
Because He lives, All fear is gone.
Because I know He holds the future,
And life is worth the living just because He lives.

*“Great Is Thy Faithfulness” *
Great is Thy faithfulness!
Great is Thy faithfulness!
Morning by morning new mercies **I **see.
All **I **have needed Thy hand hath provided;
Great is Thy faithfulness, Lord, unto me!

“Holy, Holy, Holy” (uses the corporate ‘we’ and 'our)

“Jesu, Jesu” (uses the corporate ‘we’ ‘us’ ‘our’)

“Majesty”
Here I am humbled by your Majesty
Covered by your grace so free
Here I am, knowing I’m a sinful man
Covered by the blood of the Lamb

*“Surely It Is God Who Saves Me”*Surely it is God who saves me;
**I **shall trust and have no fear.
For the Lord defends and shields me
and his saving help is near.
So rejoice as you draw water
from salvation’s healing spring;
in the day of your deliverance
thank the Lord, his mercies sing.

“Victory in Jesus”
**I **heard an old, old story,
How a Savior came from glory,
How He gave His life on Calvary
To save a wretch like me;
I heard about His groaning,
Of His precious blood’s atoning,
Then **I **repented of my sins
And won the victory.
Chorus:O victory in Jesus,
My Savior, forever.
He sought me and bought me
With His redeeming blood;
He loved me ere I knew Him
And all my love is due Him,
He plunged me to victory,
Beneath the cleansing flood.

“Marching to Zion/Come We that Love the Lord” (uses ‘we’ ‘our’)

*“Precious Lord, Take My Hand” *
Precious Lord, take my hand,
Lead **me **on, let me stand,
I am tired, I am weak, I am worn;
Through the storm, through the night,
Lead me on to the light

This is just to show that Protestant theology, with it’s emphasis on “Jesus and me” is abundant in protestant hymns across the board. You really don’t find it like that in Catholic hymns and songs as a general rule.

Do you have a reference to show that these are the “top 20 Protestant hymns”? Do you have a reference of the top 20 Catholic hymns?

 

[peary]

Google it

 

[lak611]

Google it

I found the top 20 Catholic hymns. Many of them are not corporate either. They are:

1. On Eagle’s Wings (Michael Joncas, 242)
2. Here I Am, Lord (Dan Schutte, 152)
3. Be Not Afraid (Bob Dufford, 146)
4. You Are Mine (David Haas, 138)
5. How Great Thou Art (Stuart Hine, 76)
6. Holy God, We Praise Thy Name (Ignaz Franz, 70)
7. Amazing Grace (John Newton, 69)
8. All Are Welcome (Marty Haugen, 58)
9. Prayer of St. Francis (Sebastian Temple, 43)
10. Ave Maria (42)
11. We Are Called (David Haas, 38)
12. Let There Be Peace on Earth (Miller-Jackson, 36)
13. I Am the Bread of Life (Suzanne Toolan, 30)
14. The Summons (trad./John Bell, 30)
15. Panis Angelicus (29)
16. The Servant Song (Richard Gillard, 29)
17. Pescador de Hombres (Cesareo Gabarain, 28)
18. Servant Song (Donna McCargill, 28)
19. Shepherd Me, O God (Marty Haugen, 27)
20. Ave Verum Corpus (26)

from this site

 

[peary]

I found the top 20 Catholic hymns. Many of them are not corporate either. They are:from this site

That’s only within the past twenty/thirty years. Tryin going back a couple of hundred.

 

[Cat]

I don’t mind “I” and “me” songs. After all, King David wrote a lot of them.

Often when I write songs, I am writing a personal testimony. These songs are not meant to be sung as congregational hymns, they are solos.

I think other songwriters are the same way. They write about their personal experiences as a testimony. But many other Christians can identify with these experiences, and the songs end up being sung in corporate setting. So even though the song is an “I” song, it is being sung by a group of Christians who are all in agreement.

E.g., “There’s a sweet, sweet Spirit in this place, and I know that it’s the Spirit of the Lord” is something that many of us would say about Mass. So when we sing “I”, we mean “we.”

BTW, I’ve never heard that song sung at Mass! And I haven’t heard it sung in evangelical churches since Hector was a pup! It’s what classed as “boomer music” in evangelical churches–a nice word for “fuddy duddy music” or “oldies!” You might find it sung at a “traditional” evangelical Protestant church service, but never at a “contemporary” service! Ah, I’m so old.

But anyway, I think that there is nothing wrong with “I” and “me” songs in Mass, provided that they are sung at the appropriate time in the Mass, AND–there should be a balance. If the only songs ever sung in a parish are “I” and “me” songs, I think there is a danger that the parish will become human-focused. But if the only songs ever sung in a parish are “our” and “we” songs, I think there is a danger that people will forget about their personal responsibilities and conversion, and assume that everyone else is OK, therefore I’m OK.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

But anyway, I think that there is nothing wrong with “I” and “me” songs in Mass, provided that they are sung at the appropriate time in the Mass, AND–there should be a balance. If the only songs ever sung in a parish are “I” and “me” songs, I think there is a danger that the parish will become human-focused. But if the only songs ever sung in a parish are “our” and “we” songs, I think there is a danger that people will forget about their personal responsibilities and conversion, and assume that everyone else is OK, therefore I’m OK.

Preach it sister/brother!! You got it exactly right!

As for this ridiculous statement:

That’s only within the past twenty/thirty years. Tryin going back a couple of hundred.

OK. Now you have crossed the line. People have tried to be polite with you and simply show you that you simply weren’t looking at the broad spectrum of hymnody that is out there. Surely anyone can cherry pick and find either “me”-centered or corporate, or surprise! God-centered hymns used by protestants and Catholics alike. But you seem insistent at creating a rift between protestants and catholics. That is simply contentous behavior not worthy of bearing the name Catholic (which means universal) or Christ who came for all men, both corporately and personally.

You have been shown, when using the same standards for selecting hymns that you presented that whatever you find in one branch of Christendom can be found in the other. But you then keep pushing, pushing. I am left with the opinion that you don’t care what the facts themselves might present you have to make your point, even if it is at the expense of unity within the body of Christ. Want to talk about being “me”-centered in your worship. I think you’re illustrating it with your focus on proving yourself. So, go and worship using “us” and “our”. I have a feeling you mean that in the royal “we” sense as surely you preceive yourself as king, and I wonder if you aren’t making yourself the creator and aribtrator of all things as well, for you certainly have established yourself in that role in this thread.

I suggest you spend some time in the confessional today, and be sure to use the pronoun “I” when you get there.

 

[peary]

I don’t mind “I” and “me” songs. After all, King David wrote a lot of them…

I guess I don’t mind a few ‘I’ or ‘me’ songs once in awhile, but I do not think that they are appropriate for Mass. Private devotions, yes, but I tend to frown on the “Me & Jesus” bit when it comes to music during Mass.