"Catholic" thinking Protestants?

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Perhaps it is that you have not really honestly looked at the question from any direction but your own presuppositions. That was the discovery I made anyhow.

Protestants seem to be under this delusion that catholics never read the bible and that they just make things up as they go along. .
And here we have the Catholic apologetic position in a nutshell: one cannot honestly be a Protestant, and Protestants are deluded about Catholics. It is possible for an informed Protestant to reject the Catholic claims honestly. It is also possible for a Protestant to know more about Catholicism than most Catholics - and to remain Protestant. Neither of these statements are acceptable to Catholics, because it is fundamental to Catholic belief that Protestants are deluded and dishonest at best, and with a little patient teaching we will cross the Tiber.

Let us look at the Protestant counterpoint to this, and that is the saying that if someone really understands the Gospel, then there is no way they will cross the Tiber to Rome. You find that expressed by many Protestants when such as Newman or Beckwith or Chesterton get wet in a southward direction. I buy neither the premise nor the conclusion. I am not sure it is humanly possible to thoroughly understand the Gospel because of its nature. I have trouble understanding the statement that “Jesus saves”. All else is mystery. Even those two words have two mysteries (or more) I cannot fathom. I have spent quite a bit of time in Catholic churches, alone, staring at the Box and asking Jesus what He is doing in a Catholic church. We are all confronted with mystery, and I think it better to be thinking more like Christians and less like Catholics and Protestants. What that partially means is to come to an understanding of where the differences between us are razor-sharp, and where there are no differences at all. Do we look rightly? I wonder.
 
Many conversion stories (including mine) I have heard started with an exploration of the Fathers. Some of the things I’ve read from these folks makes me wonder how they can remain Protestant. I wonder if this could be the beginning of a greater number of conversions as well.
I suppose you can believe that the Fathers have something spiritually useful to say without being overly enamoured with the hierarchical and highly centralised structure to the Catholic Church.
 
And here we have the Catholic apologetic position in a nutshell: one cannot honestly be a Protestant, and Protestants are deluded about Catholics. It is possible for an informed Protestant to reject the Catholic claims honestly. It is also possible for a Protestant to know more about Catholicism than most Catholics - and to remain Protestant. Neither of these statements are acceptable to Catholics, because it is fundamental to Catholic belief that Protestants are deluded and dishonest at best, and with a little patient teaching we will cross the Tiber.
I apologize if my comments offended you. I speak only from the frustration of often covering the same ground over and over - “The Catholic faith is unbiblical” - which is what I see behind your statements about infallibility. Or, “The Catholic church is not supported by history and fell at some point - probably around the time of Constantine” - which is what I saw in your comment about it being ahistorical. If I misrepresented or misunderstood those comments, I apologize.

I agree it is not about Catholic/Protestant - but, then again it is. What does it mean to be a Christian if not to obey the commands of Christ and to seek the unity of his body once again? Somebody in this thread (I think you) said that the Catholic church kicked the Protestants out - even assuming that’s an accurate historical description of the reformation, what is keeping them out now? Do we not all wish to be one as Jesus prayed we would be?
 
I apologize if my comments offended you. I speak only from the frustration of often covering the same ground over and over - “The Catholic faith is unbiblical” - which is what I see behind your statements about infallibility. Or, “The Catholic church is not supported by history and fell at some point - probably around the time of Constantine” - which is what I saw in your comment about it being ahistorical. If I misrepresented or misunderstood those comments, I apologize.

I agree it is not about Catholic/Protestant - but, then again it is. What does it mean to be a Christian if not to obey the commands of Christ and to seek the unity of his body once again? Somebody in this thread (I think you) said that the Catholic church kicked the Protestants out - even assuming that’s an accurate historical description of the reformation, what is keeping them out now? Do we not all wish to be one as Jesus prayed we would be?
Sorry. You misunderstand me on several points, and by the way I rave, that is probably understandable. First, I am not offended by your remarks. It’s typical for either side to get exasperated by the other along the lines of :
  • why can’t they see what is clear? What is wrong with them?
  • this is SO CLEAR only an idiot could miss it.
  • Therefore you must be an idiot if you don’t get it.
I find myself facing this in myself and expect others face the same tempation, which doesn’t help when I read someone else saying what I am tempted to say. Charity is hard work. You post so charitably that I consider you someone who ought to know better. Some CAF posters I simply write off as ignorant or fanatical or hysterical. I find none of that in your writing.

The Catholic faith is Biblical. That is one of the things that intrigues me about it. It is also self-conciously un-Biblical, in the sense of having an authority outside of the Bible that demands the same weight. By “un-Biblical” I do not mean “contrary to Scripture” at all. I think the Bible can be read in a way that does not contradict Catholic theology. That is however different from necessarily reading the Bible correctly, and that conflict is where the conflict is.

In using the term “ahistorical” I was referring specifically to matters relating to Pope Honorius and his heresy (on a thread I’ve been following in the non-Catholic forum) and the ahistorical nature of the doctrine of infallibility, which has little if anything to do with Constantine and the myth that he created the Catholic church. I harbor the suspicion that the Catholic church has sometimes ignored its own past for the sake of its own interests. Pope Gregory the Great, for example, apparently said a number of things about the papacy that succeeding popes simply ignored in their zeal to make the papacy a political power.

The Catholic church officially anathematized those holding Protestant viewpoints at the Council of Trent. Before then, those same viewpoints had been considered legitimate Catholic viewpoints in the Church. There were many theological trends in the Catholic Church. Instead of accepting divergent viewpoints as legitimate under the Catholic tent, they were rejected. Both Trent and Vatican I are suspect councils in attendance and aim. Neither the Orthodox nor the Protestants were at either, so they weren’t exactly ecumenical. The suppression of dissidents seems to have been a prime aim of both, something Protestants tend to view Catholics as especially interested in.

I would like us to be one again. I wish I could go to Mass and hear good preaching. The Catholic church is the home of preachers such as Chrystotom (“Golden Mouth”) and Augustine and Gregory the Great and Ambrose. Instead you get Daffy Duck at the ambo. But you have the Mass and we have Daffy Duck services, planned and led by Daffy Duck, and sometimes with Goofy preaching. May the Lord unite us, and our strengths, again.
 
Truthstalker - Many thanks for that response. There is something about these groups that brings out the worst in us (or at least me) and I often find myself sorry I got involved in some of these threads. I tend to shy away from the apologetics group for this reason. I think apologetics only work well one-on-one.

One thing I miss about Protestant churches is the preaching. Of course, not having the Eucharist, they need something to make up for it. And I don’t mean that as a slight, just an observation I realized after becoming Catholic. I was a presbyterian elder so I did a fair amount of preaching myself - which makes it even more frustrating because it seems a lot of priests do not put much effort at all into it. It is a sad state that I hope to be a part of changing. My current priest is a former student of Dr. Hahn - and I think some of Hahn’s love for preaching rubbed off on him. So, we are blessed with good homilies. I go to mass practically every day now and have yet to hear a bad homily from our priest. Some are better than others. I hope you find a good parish with a good priest. The church is in a sad state right now with respect to preaching I think - but hopefully its getting better. I am amazed at the number of converts so I cannot help but think God is up to something.
 
Roman Catholicism and Protestantism can never be reconciled because we each believe mutually exclusive things. Simple really and just fine to continue that way. There is very little we have in common.
Other than being human and having a love of God? Peace. 🙂
 
So the Catholics are saying they know few if anyone who has read the Fathers and has become Protestant? That’s like trying to prove Catholicism is correct by pointing out how few Protestants get in line for the Eucharist at Mass. Catholics are your database: I challenge the validity of your sample. There are many, many Protestants who formerly were Catholics, and converted because they matched up Church teachings with what the Bible - and, gasp, the Fathers - said about certain issues, and decided the Catholic Church is wrong.

This smacks of the following:
“Let’s kick out those who disagree with us.”
“Everyone here is now in agreement.”
“Therefore we must be right.”
“Ah, unity!”

An appalling ignorance of theology is apparent on both sides of the Tiber. Some ex-Catholics have testified that they converted because they had to worship Mary; on this thread someone testified as part of their conversion story that in their Protestant days Christ was never described as being in the Communion elements. One can believe that the elements are symbolic but that Christ is nevertheless present in a real way.
Hello there. Don’t know where the ex-Catholics you talked to got the idea that Catholics “worship” Mary. Not true. We look to her as an intermediary, you know, like you perhaps asked your Mom to talk to Dad when you were afraid to ask him something yourself? The idea that Catholics worship of Mary is often a misunderstanding by those not of the Catholic Faith. Peace. 🙂
 
I read this book last year. It has the clearest definition of the Communion of Saints I have ever read by any Christian, Catholic or Protestant. If your faith is strong, I suggest checking it out.

Also, there’s many Protestants out there who have Catholic ideals. A lot of Protestants I come across believe that our actions somehow effect our salvation. Heck, my father is Presbyterian and he believes in Purgatory.
👍 👍 👍
Hello EVERYBODY. I just looked for the above book
Mary for the Evangelicals at Amazon. Since it seems to be waaaaaaay above my brain wave pattern, can anyone suggest a more simple (not simple minded) read of the same subject? Thanks. Peace.
 
Hello EVERYBODY. I just looked for the above book
Mary for the Evangelicals at Amazon. Since it seems to be waaaaaaay above my brain wave pattern, can anyone suggest a more simple (not simple minded) read of the same subject? Thanks. Peace.
Scott Hahn has a book out called “Hail Holy Queen” that is very readable. 🙂

(He has an interesting sense of humour - people either love it or hate it, but either way, you won’t be bored when you read his stuff. 🙂 )
 
Indeed, it is a common misconception to think that “Protestants” have a core set of beliefs when there are practically as many denominations as there are protestants :). But, I can assure you a very great number - and probably a majority - do indeed believe that the church is invisible. If you do not believe then try ask them where their elders, deacons, pastors, whatever get their authority to be “in charge.” There is the issue - if it is not invisible then where does the visible church get its authority? You may say God - amen - but how is that acted out practically? A denominational body lays hands on the individual? So where dose that denominational body get its authority to ordain? You see where that goes? Eventually you are forced to admit that somebody is their own authority or that there is some invisible church authority - unless you can show succession from the apostles.
Okay Straiotes, I landed in the middle of the conversation as usual, late starter. Are you talking about an invisible “head” of Protestant Churches? Explain please. Thanks. Peace. 🙂
 
This does not follow. The visible church is made up of all who profess the true religion. They may or may not be among the elect. You seem to be assuming that all members of the visible church are members of the invisible, but this is a completely illogical assumption.

The distinction between the whole company of the elect and the visible church (which contains tares among the wheat) goes back to Augustine, though Augustine didn’t call the elect an “invisible church.”

Because he professes the true faith. As long as he doesn’t fall into open heresy or immorality and thus show his profession to be a lie, it’s none of your business whether he’s in the invisible church or not. This is no different from the Catholic view. You’re making an issue out of thin air, because you seem unwilling to accept that classical Protestants really do believe in the visible Church!

Edwin
Dear Contarini. What is a “classical” Protestant? Thanks. Peace.🙂
 
You are pretty good at jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth. Shame on you.

Catholics and Protestants do not share very critical beliefs such as transubstantiation, Papal authority, sola scriptura, justification by faith alone, purgatory, etc. Which of those ideas would Catholics give up their beliefs about to come closer to Protestants in the name of unity?
Dear Namesake. Why do we always end up espousing differences rather than what we have in common? I don’t believe the purpose of this forum is to “crusade” for either Protestantism, nor Catholicism, but instead to “try” to find a beginning of communication with our Protestant Brethren. Perhaps it is the tone of the postings that is misunderstood because it is so hard to tell iin writing if one is being defensive, or offensive. We need to learn from one another and have faith that Christ will lead us to where we are supposed to be. Peace.🙂
 
How does one go about restoring and recontructing a Church that was started over a thousand years earlier? That would be like someone who is fed up with our government (USA) breaking away and starting a new country (called reformed USA) based on the writings of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. I can understand their reasons and sincerity, but it couldn’t be done. It would be like me waking up tomorrow and deciding that, since I had totally screwed up my Iife, I would start over and become a baby again. Churches still continue to do this today though, and that’s probably why we have non-denominationalism. There seems to be a tendency among Christians to want to break away, reconstruct, and purify the Church back to it’s original state. This would be impossible to do, and so far it has led only to division in the Church.

As far as the reasons for the Reformation, there were other forces at work other than heroic men (reformers) going up against the big, bad, corrupted Church. Politics, pride, money, and original sin are reasons you can throw in as well.

One of the reasons behind the Reformation which you rarely hear about (but which Fr Benedict Groeschel mentioned in a talk I heard) is disease–particularly the plague. Priests, monks, and nuns took care of the sick and therefore died from the plague at alarming rates. Sometimes whole communities of religious would be wiped out. This problem contributed a lot to the sometimes poor training of the religious around the time of the Reformation.
The authority is in and from Christ acting through men. If you are worried about the laying on of hands, Farel was a Catholic priest, as was Knox, not that this is the emphasis in Reformed theology. The laying on of hands goes back to the apostles. But more importantly, the Reformers sought to restore church teaching, to be faithful to the actual teaching of the apostles as opposed to centuries of scholastic speculations and inferences that were being passed as inspired tradition, at a time when the official teaching apparatus of the Catholic church had been silent for centuries on issues that, had it not been asleep at the switch, they would have ruled on. Protestants argue that their teaching was, before Trent, at least as valid as what Trent accepted. Paul commanded that Timothy appoint faithful men. When the Catholic church became a political organization, that certainly wasn’t done. Popes such as John XII, Leo X, among a host of others, exemplified a church that, in the eyes of the reformers, required a “root and branch” reformation.

There is only one Church: the universal church. Some have seized power in part of that church, demanded allegiance to that part from all Christians and insisted that the rest of the church is invalid. Arrogant ahistorical power plays like an insistence on infallibility don’t help the cause of unity. They threw us out and then condemn us for being outside. Really.
Dear truthstalker, Hello. The more I read these posts, the more I am beginning to realize and learn the history of the Catholic Church and the UNBROKEN line from its historical beginning and the present day. UNBROKEN means NOT BROKEN. Logically, one would assume that the teachings of that church have also been given as an unbroken repository of teachings. I have read that the Church Fathers have gone as far as humanly possible to make sure that what they wrote coincided and agreed with the beliefs written and held by the Catholic Church in previous generations and times. Given that concept, isn’t it a part of history that the Reformation occured in the 1500s lead by the Monk Martin Luther? I found the following statements to be of interest:
Martin Luther (1483-1546) stands in history as one of those unique forces, an individual who by force of will and by his ideas changed the world fundamentally. There are several ironies incumbent on Luther’s pivotal role in history: 1) he doesn’t really represent a break with the past, but rather a flash point where ideas and trends which had been smoldering in Europe for several centuries suddenly blazed aflame; 2) Luther initially saw himself as a great reformer of the Catholic church, a simple monk who thought the force of his ideas would single-handedly redirect the Leviathan of the church; in the end, however, he DIVIDED Christianity INTO TWO SEPARATE CHURCHES and that second division, Protestantism, would divide over the next four centuries into a near infinity of separate churches; 3) finally, Luther (and all the other reformers) saw themselves as returning Christianity to its roots, they believed that they were setting the clock back; in reality, their ideas irreparably changed the world and pushed it kicking and screaming, not into some ideal past, but into the modern era.

What had started as a furious attempt to reform the church overnight turned into a project of building a NEW church INDEPENDENT of the Catholic church. Nevertheless, this small work, “The Freedom of the Christian,” is the theological and ideological core of Luther’s thinking; the fundamental term of value, that center around which every other aspect of his thought rotates, is the concept of Freiheit, “freedom,” or “liberty.” This is not our concept of freedom, but in the eventual turn of time it will give rise to the notion of “individual freedom,” and later “political freedom,” and later “economic freedom.”

And these latter occurances were good things.

This site wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/LUTHER.HTM also discusses indulgences, which I find to be very interesting. Still researching that. Peace 🙂
 
And here we have the Catholic apologetic position in a nutshell: one cannot honestly be a Protestant, and Protestants are deluded about Catholics. It is possible for an informed Protestant to reject the Catholic claims honestly. It is also possible for a Protestant to know more about Catholicism than most Catholics - and to remain Protestant. Neither of these statements are acceptable to Catholics, because it is fundamental to Catholic belief that Protestants are deluded and dishonest at best, and with a little patient teaching we will cross the Tiber.

Let us look at the Protestant counterpoint to this, and that is the saying that if someone really understands the Gospel, then there is no way they will cross the Tiber to Rome. You find that expressed by many Protestants when such as Newman or Beckwith or Chesterton get wet in a southward direction. I buy neither the premise nor the conclusion. I am not sure it is humanly possible to thoroughly understand the Gospel because of its nature. I have trouble understanding the statement that “Jesus saves”. All else is mystery. Even those two words have two mysteries (or more) I cannot fathom. I have spent quite a bit of time in Catholic churches, alone, staring at the Box and asking Jesus what He is doing in a Catholic church. We are all confronted with mystery, and I think it better to be thinking more like Christians and less like Catholics and Protestants. What that partially means is to come to an understanding of where the differences between us are razor-sharp, and where there are no differences at all. Do we look rightly? I wonder.
Dear Truthstalker. I like what you say "I think it better to be thinking more like Christians and less like Catholics and Protestants. What that partially means is to come to an understanding of where the differences between us are razor-sharp, and where there are no differences at all. Do we look rightly? I wonder. I think all of us are so enclosed in our little worlds of defensiveness, we can’t hear others for the noise we are making ourselves. However, I do think it will be hard for Protestants and Catholics to come closer together because of the differences we maintain as truth. Beliefs are inherent in Faith and if we lose our Faith, what do we have? Peace. 🙂
 
And here we have the Catholic apologetic position in a nutshell: one cannot honestly be a Protestant, and Protestants are deluded about Catholics. It is possible for an informed Protestant to reject the Catholic claims honestly. It is also possible for a Protestant to know more about Catholicism than most Catholics - and to remain Protestant. Neither of these statements are acceptable to Catholics, because it is fundamental to Catholic belief that Protestants are deluded and dishonest at best, and with a little patient teaching we will cross the Tiber.

Let us look at the Protestant counterpoint to this, and that is the saying that if someone really understands the Gospel, then there is no way they will cross the Tiber to Rome. You find that expressed by many Protestants when such as Newman or Beckwith or Chesterton get wet in a southward direction. I buy neither the premise nor the conclusion. I am not sure it is humanly possible to thoroughly understand the Gospel because of its nature. I have trouble understanding the statement that “Jesus saves”. All else is mystery. Even those two words have two mysteries (or more) I cannot fathom. I have spent quite a bit of time in Catholic churches, alone, staring at the Box and asking Jesus what He is doing in a Catholic church. We are all confronted with mystery, and I think it better to be thinking more like Christians and less like Catholics and Protestants. What that partially means is to come to an understanding of where the differences between us are razor-sharp, and where there are no differences at all. Do we look rightly? I wonder.
Scott Hahn has a book out called “Hail Holy Queen” that is very readable. 🙂

(He has an interesting sense of humour - people either love it or hate it, but either way, you won’t be bored when you read his stuff. 🙂 )
Thanks. Will look it up. Peace.🙂
 
Dear Contarini. What is a “classical” Protestant? Thanks. Peace.🙂
A classical Protestant is a member of a church deriving directly from the Reformation and practicing infant baptism. There are two classical Protestant traditions–Lutheran and Reformed. Many people would add Anglicans, but in my opinion insofar as Anglicans remain true to the “classical Protestant” side of their heritage they can be counted as a branch of the Reformed. Those Anglicans who, like myself, place great stress on our pre-Reformation heritage are not really classical Protestants.

“Confessional Protestant” is a related term, describing a Protestant who adheres firmly to a particular historic confession of faith rather than claiming to follow “no creed but the Bible” as more radical Protestants do.

Edwin
 
Okay Straiotes, I landed in the middle of the conversation as usual, late starter. Are you talking about an invisible “head” of Protestant Churches? Explain please. Thanks. Peace. 🙂
My apologies - I got away from this thread for several days and did not notice your question until catching up today so this is get even further from the train of thought that started it. But, I’ll try to pick up on this internal thread.

It was something of a sub-conversation about visible vs. invisible church and my comments were meant to use the concept of authority to demonstrate how it seems the Protestant model always comes back to being an invisible church. From the Catholic and Orthodox angle we would argue apostolic succession - Jesus ordained (identified and sent) the apostles who in turn identified and sent successors and taught them to do the same for the next generations. (See Clement’s letter to the Romans Chapters 42 and 44 for instance). But as a Protestant, when asked who ordained me, I would have said “the Elders at my church.” And, who ordained them?-Elders before them, and so on, all the way back to Calvin or Knox. But, could/would we honestly say Calvin and Knox could trace their ordination back to the Apostles/Jesus? No. So the authority of ordination came from ??? We would respond that it was from Jesus of course but our saying it does not make it so…my guess is a lot of the denominations Protestants and Catholics would both call “cults” would say the same thing. In essence, it is an invisible authority that exists without any tangible evidence to demonstrate its authenticity.

With deference to Edwin, I will mention that some Anglicans do see the importance in that succession but it is a rarity in Protestant denominations. And it was something that always nagged at me as a Presbyterian. I think it a far more important question than is often discussed. It is the question the early church often used to determine who were the cults and who were the church - they would look to the pedigree of the teacher and demand that he demonstrate his authority came from the top…if he could not, he was not accepted as one of them and his teaching was automatically suspect. That was a very visible line of authority and not some questionable claim to “have a friend of Jesus,” as if simply saying it makes it a fact (name it and claim it?? 🙂 ). The early church did not buy that self-authenticating ordination paradigm from those who wished to break away back then either.
 
A classical Protestant is a member of a church deriving directly from the Reformation and practicing infant baptism. There are two classical Protestant traditions–Lutheran and Reformed. Many people would add Anglicans, but in my opinion insofar as Anglicans remain true to the “classical Protestant” side of their heritage they can be counted as a branch of the Reformed. Those Anglicans who, like myself, place great stress on our pre-Reformation heritage are not really classical Protestants.

“Confessional Protestant” is a related term, describing a Protestant who adheres firmly to a particular historic confession of faith rather than claiming to follow “no creed but the Bible” as more radical Protestants do.

Edwin
Many thanks Edwin. Peace. 🙂
 
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