Catholic to Agnostic?

[rgtg11]

I was raised Catholic, and I still do consider myself a Catholic when people ask me what my faith/religious beliefs are. However, I’m really questioning my beliefs lately. I’m torn about whether or not God is really real, and I’m especially torn about the validity of the Catholic Church. I feel like there’s so much wrong with the teachings promoted by the Church, and I feel like I’m leaning more towards being an agnostic rather than a Catholic. Can anyone give me some definitive arguments for why I should believe in the Church? I should add that I was homeschooled, and attend a Catholic university, and have been studying theology for the majority of my life, so I am familiar with all of the traditional arguments, and the Unmoved Mover, and all the normal philosophical arguments. I need more than that to be convinced.

 

[humbleseeker]

I feel like there’s so much wrong with the teachings promoted by the Church

Could you be more specific?

 

[adamhovey1988]

Are you sure about that? I’ve been agnostic, agnostic is the Greek word for the Latin word ignorant. Now, that’s not meant to be an insult, so please don’t take it as one. The Church’s teaching, I suspect, isn’t the problem, it’s with you. Look in the mirror before you think the Church is the issue. Read the Bible, read GK Chesterton, watch EWTN. It may very well be you reject a caricature of the Church, and not the Church herself.

 

[rgtg11]

Specifically, I don’t understand why the Church is so vocally opposed to gay relationships/gay marriage when the Bible says more about the immorality of divorce than it does about gay people. It offends my sense of mercy and justice to tell someone that they cannot ever marry or be in a relationship because of who they are attracted to. I also take issue with the “purity culture” within the Church, that tells us that a virgin is the best thing we can be. I don’t like the idea that if someone makes a mistake, that they are now permanently sullied, and ruined for their future spouse, and the guilt-tripping way they teach this to young people. I also hate that so many people within the Church promote traditional gender roles, and say it is the woman’s place to stay at home with the children and to be submissive. These are just a few examples

 

[rgtg11]

I have read the Bible many times. Again, I have been studying theology since I was five years old. My last theology class was just this past summer. I attend a Catholic university. I simply feel like aspects of the Church are outdated, and rely too much on faith, and not enough on reason. And I need something outside of the Bible to be able to really convince me. I need a non-faith-specific resource.

 

[guanophore]

I feel like there’s so much wrong with the teachings promoted by the Church,

Can you be more specific?

I’m leaning more towards being an agnostic rather than a Catholic.

I am curious what makes you think that you cannot “know” God?

I need more than that to be convinced.

It sounds like you need a personal encounter with the risen Christ.

I don’t understand why the Church is so vocally opposed to gay relationships/gay marriage when the Bible says more about the immorality of divorce than it does about gay people.

Jesus was born into a Jewish community, which already understood that God’s plan for humanity was one man and one woman. There was no need to teach them what they already knew.

Have you ever read the Theology of the Body?

It offends my sense of mercy and justice to tell someone that they cannot ever marry or be in a relationship because of who they are attracted to.

People marry for many reasons, not just physical attraction. People who are married are expected to keep their marriage vows, even the members of that marriage are “attracted to” someone outside the marriage.

God has created mankind with extraordinary freedom. There are limits to that freedom. Those things that are outside of His divine plan for us are against His commandments. These commandments are for our benefit.

True justice is achieved by fulfilling God’s plan for our lives.

I also take issue with the “purity culture” within the Church, that tells us that a virgin is the best thing we can be.

Why is this a problem?

I don’t like the idea that if someone makes a mistake, that they are now permanently sullied, and ruined for their future spouse, and the guilt-tripping way they teach this to young people. I

Sin does not have to “permanently sully” the human soul. This is why we have confession. When we are restored to God’s grace, we are no longer headed for ruin.

I don’t know about “the guilt tripping way they teach this to young people”. Perhaps you can clarify?

I also hate that so many people within the Church promote traditional gender roles, and say it is the woman’s place to stay at home with the children and to be submissive.

I am not sure who these “so many people” are, but I personally know very few that have this kind of lifestyle. It is not Church teaching that a woman cannot have a career.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

May I recommend Handbook Of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft

God bless

 

[guanophore]

I simply feel like aspects of the Church are outdated, and rely too much on faith, and not enough on reason.

Such as?

There are some aspects of the Church that are “outdated”. The Church vigorously opposes modernism.

As far as relying too much on faith, there are certain mysteries of the faith that are beyond human reason.

And I need something outside of the Bible to be able to really convince me. I need a non-faith-specific resource.

It seems that you need an encounter, like the disciples on the road to Emmaus.

 

[humbleseeker]

Gender and Catholicism Casual Discussion

I’m a college student doing a research project on Catholicism and gender, more specifically Catholicism and queerness. I grew up Catholic and spent nine years in Catholic school and four years in faith formation. I’ve had run-ins with bad priests, catholic bigots, and profoundly ignorant faith educators. I’ve been reading some of the threads on this website and I’ve been struck by the barely concealed hatred and blatant arrogance of some commenters on topics like non-catholic religions and LGBT …

Your objections are very similar to this thread started just yesterday. This isn’t part of a research paper is it?

If not, it’s a good place to start learning more about your faith and the objections you might have.

 

[fhansen]

If you’re serious about it you need to seek, you need to pray, ask, seek, knock. Humility is the key to that, unconcerned with the thoughts or opinions of others. Knowledge can only take you so far, grace does the rest. But we have to ask. And the best place to ask is from the position you’re more or less in now: “I don’t know”. Because that’s honesty.

My background was very similar to yours albeit 40 years earlier. I left the Church and sought in many places, during my twenties especially, sometimes more seriously, sometimes less so but always wanting to know if there was some higher truth than what we know here via the relatively mundane ways of determining it. Don’t assume you already know, look for yourself, read the bible, pray, fast, really want it, and God will grant it. No matter where you look, incidentally. Every place we look for truth, every religion or philosophy, can be a stepping stone taking us nearer to God, as long as we keep stepping.

To seek truth is ultimately to seek God, and vice versa. And any amount of hope in something “bigger”, something better and deeper and more authentic in this universe has in it an element of faith.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." Heb 11:6

Anyway it works; It isn’t meant to come without struggle however.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Specifically, I don’t understand why the Church is so vocally opposed to gay relationships/gay marriage when the Bible says more about the immorality of divorce than it does about gay people. It offends my sense of mercy and justice to tell someone that they cannot ever marry or be in a relationship because of who they are attracted to.

So, don’t go around telling them. Unless you’re a priest or a catechist or the person is your child who you’re teaching morals to, you don’t need to go around telling other people what the Church says about everything. I certainly don’t go around lecturing the gay people I know on Church teachings, especially since a lot of them were raised Catholic and already know.
If asked, you say “the Church teaching is…” and tell them honestly what it is.
And otherwise just be friendly and inclusive to them.

I also take issue with the “purity culture” within the Church, that tells us that a virgin is the best thing we can be. I don’t like the idea that if someone makes a mistake, that they are now permanently sullied, and ruined for their future spouse, and the guilt-tripping way they teach this to young people.

While I remember being taught that chastity was important, I don’t remember ever being taught that if I or any other young person made a mistake or pushed the bounds, we were “permanently sullied and ruined for their future spouse”. Let’s face it, very few people manage to observe perfect chastity, yet many if not most of them do end up married and/or otherwise reaching a reasonably decent state in life. While we’re not supposed to just go sin and figure “oh I can confess it later”, there is NOTHING you do that “permanently ruins” you, as repentance and confession remove the sin and you are just like it never happened from a moral point of view.
Now, it is possible that you could end up with all sorts of non-moral consequences like an unplanned pregnancy, an STD, or a badly broken heart. Those consequences are independent of whether you’re a Catholic or an atheist, they can affect anyone.

(continued next post)

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I also hate that so many people within the Church promote traditional gender roles, and say it is the woman’s place to stay at home with the children and to be submissive.

To be honest, the only place I ever see anybody like that is online in traditional internet forums. I had a very Catholic mom, two Catholic aunts, a Catholic grandma who I heard about second hand as she died when I was very small, and lots of Catholic female cousins, and nobody in the family, neither the women or the men, thought like that. My mother and aunts all had great careers in addition to being wives and moms. My grandma was very independent though she was a housewife, then again she got married in the very early 1900s so life was different then. My Catholic female cousins have done all kinds of stuff, many of them got college degrees. I’ve been lucky to have two careers and a 23-year marriage. The girls from my Catholic girls’ school became doctors, lawyers, journalists and everything else under the sun, most of them have also been married and had some kids. I just saw one had a piece on Longform the other day, she is also a Pulitzer prize winner, is married to another Catholic journalist and has lived all over the world with him and their kids.

So, I don’t know who you’re hanging around to hear this “women must stay home” stuff but it’s certainly not something all Catholics believe and it’s not my experience. There are some women who choose to stay home because they want to be SAHMs and it makes economic sense for them and that’s fine, it’s a choice and they work it out with their husband. But the Church certainly doesn’t force that on women.

Really, if anybody from the Church had suggested that to me when I was young I would have laughed out loud and my mom would have backed me up because both her and my dad wanted me to get a good education and have a career so I could support myself (and I was also thinking I might have to support them as my dad wasn’t well). Even the sisters at my Catholic girls’ high school were encouraging all the girls to go to college and go pursue their dreams.

 

[Dan_Defender]

Falling away is a grave sin:
‘So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.’ - Matt 10:32-33
The Church has maintained its teaching for 20 centuries, why would it change it now? cultural relativism doesn’t make sense.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Again, I have been studying theology since I was five years old. My last theology class was just this past summer. I attend a Catholic university.

It’s unfortunate but not surprising to hear what you have to say. I can validate what ‘Tis_Bearself said. I don’t know what Catholics you’re hanging around or listening to, but you seem to have been taken in by an ideology that espouses purity. I think you just need to come into your own. That’s not going to happen when you’re surrounded by people who are influencing you to be a certain way, and you’re acquiescing. The questions you have are good ones and the answers are not as simple as some would have you believe. So don’t be afraid to ask those questions.

 

[rgtg11]

I don’t know about “the guilt tripping way they teach this to young people”. Perhaps you can clarify?

Every single retreat I went on in high school, they would split us up into male and female groups for chastity talks. I don’t know what the men talked about, but for the women, here are just a few examples of the things they told us:
“See this beautifully wrapped present? well, every time a man other than your husband does something sexual with you, a piece gets ripped away. And what would you rather give your husband, the fully wrapped present, or a tattered and torn box?”
“See this glass of water? it symbolizes your purity, and you give it to your husband to drink on your wedding night. but every time you do something sexually before marriage, its like dropping dirt in it, and you wouldn’t want to give your husband dirty water, would you?”
“You’re virginity is a chocolate bar, and if you have premarital sex its like you’re giving those men a bite of that chocolate, and then when you get married, there’s nothing left for your husband to take.”
So even though Catholics believe in forgiveness, these types of talks stick with young women who have made mistakes, and make them feel like they’ll be worthless to they’re husbands if they ever get married. I have heard these analogies used many times on many different retreats, and the emphasis always is, if you’re not a virgin, you’re not worthy, and you’re a bad wife before you even meet your husband.

 

[Guest1]

Maybe study up on the topic of morality. What makes something moral or not?

Is it wrong for 50 people to marry each other? Why or why not?

Is it wrong for a woman to marry her father if both are physically unable to produce children? Why or why not?

Says who? Love is love right?

Who are you to find a consensual relationship between two adults that love each other to be morally wrong?

If a woman can have an abortion (I’m a woman btw) why limit abortion to the womb? Why not the ability to terminate the life of an unwanted child after birth? It’s the woman’s life right?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

That sounds like some weird fundamentalist stuff to me. How many of these retreats did you have to go on and what was the purpose of them? Did you go to some very traditional Catholic high school?

I went on a grand total of 2 Catholic retreats in high school. Both of them were female only and this subject was never addressed. They were more about our personal relationships with Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

 

[rgtg11]

I was homeschooled through the Seton program. I think I went on about 6 or 7 retreats like this throughout both middle and high school

 

[guanophore]

“See this beautifully wrapped present? well, every time a man other than your husband does something sexual with you, a piece gets ripped away. And what would you rather give your husband, the fully wrapped present, or a tattered and torn box?”

Not sure how this is “guilt tripping”. Perhaps you do not realize that sexual intimacy outside of marriage leaves the soul tattered and torn?

“See this glass of water? it symbolizes your purity, and you give it to your husband to drink on your wedding night. but every time you do something sexually before marriage, its like dropping dirt in it, and you wouldn’t want to give your husband dirty water, would you?”

I can see how this one presents more difficulty, putting the focus on “dirt” rather than cleanliness. It also seems to lack the context of reconciliation. People do not stay “dirty” after absolution. I am not encouraging fornicating, but the idea that a person who fell into this sin would go into a marriage “dirty” is not good spiritual direction. If a person is guilty of sexual sins they should all be confessed before the marriage, so that the marriage can start “clean”.

“You’re virginity is a chocolate bar, and if you have premarital sex its like you’re giving those men a bite of that chocolate, and then when you get married, there’s nothing left for your husband to take.”

This one does not work for me at all. The concept of a husband “taking” his wife’s virginity doesn’t sound good anyway, but virginity is also like pregnancy in the sense that you are or you are not. It does not get lost in “bites”. This method also seems to imply that if someone falls into sin once, that it is going to happen repeatedly with “those men”, which is a bad message. Then what of the situations where someone has sexual contact against their will, such as rape or incest? Is their “chocolate” bar gone? It is a bad analogy. Where on earth to they get this stuff?!

So even though Catholics believe in forgiveness, these types of talks stick with young women who have made mistakes, and make them feel like they’ll be worthless to they’re husbands if they ever get married.

I could see how they might, but there is no reason to keep letting them stick to you. Obviously it is high time to get stuck to some much better theology, such as Theology of the Body

 

[guanophore]

Many people have been told horrible things by teachers or parents. You are a young adult now, and you get to be the one to decide whether you want to hang on to drivel and let it damage your spiritual life, or start fresh with better material.

I have heard these analogies used many times on many different retreats, and the emphasis always is, if you’re not a virgin, you’re not worthy, and you’re a bad wife before you even meet your husband.

I wish you had better faith formation. My own faith formation was abysmal, and we did not even get to talking about these things. Now you can take responsibility for your own faith formation (this is what we promise in our Confirmation) and do a better job!.

I was homeschooled through the Seton program.

Do you think this was part of the Seton program, or did they just make this stuff up as they went along?