Catholic to Mormon to Catholic?

[Stephen168]

Regarding the “anti-catholic” stuff.

Yes I agree it is regrettable. I think it comes from our persecution complex.

I think is comes from the lack of truth in Mormonism. When a Mormon’s agrument falls apart they attack. They some how believe that the attack makes their case.

I believe the following sums up what I’ve observed on this forum.
Tal Bachman - from another Mormon discussion forum:

But back to sociopathy. It does not help that, as ******** points out in another great thread, church defense arguments, upon inspection, routinely bear the marks of a fanatically blind, psychologically closed commitment to “the church”. Reasoning is flawed; irrelevant points take center stage; citations are dodgy and misrepresented; people’s credentials are attacked rather than their opinions. “The church” seems to have become life itself, a fetishized concept more visceral and motivating, for many members, even than the concept of a wandering, preaching Jesus of Nazareth himself.

Defending “the church” becomes as necessary, literally, as fighting to save one’s life, one’s marriage, one’s own self-image, one’s relationship to one’s children, “right and wrong”, everything. This is why, evidently, no church apologist seems to have any clue why they are so often criticized for personal attacks on those skeptical of church claims - they literally don’t seem to have any idea where “person” ends, and “point” or “argument” begins. What else would we expect, though? – Tal Bachman

 

[mfbukowski]

Yes, you did. And you just did again.

You know this is how a mormon gets on the path to atheism, right?

HUH? Path to atheism? UUUUHHHHH… I don’t think so

 

[StevieD]

Consider this. Mormons say that the greatest events in history related to Jesus’ birth death and resurrection and that Joseph Smith’s first vision was second only in importance to those events. However whereas Jesus’ coming was announced by the Angel Gabriel, the coming of the Book of Mormon was announced by God the Father (in HUMAN form!! - a first, I think) AND Jesus. This is the first and greatest flaw in mormonism. Joseph overdid it big style.

 

[1holycatholic]

HUH? Path to atheism? UUUUHHHHH… I don’t think so

You do seem to be hell bent on promoting the errors of modern atheist philosophers…

 

[RebeccaJ]

HUH? Path to atheism? UUUUHHHHH… I don’t think so

Let me spell it out for you.

Your religion is built on a lie, well, actually more than one. But the two biggest are 1) the BoM and 2) a great apostasy.

Mormons who all of the sudden see lie #1 (the BoM) often hold onto the belief of lie #2. And continue to use the misinformation they received about Christianity from Mormonism…ie, it’s all WRONG. You promote this when you say, if the BoM is false, so is the Bible (or specifically Jesus.)

You yourself are displaying this tendency. The only difference is that you still believe in lie #1. Ask yourself, if you no longer believed in the BoM, what religion would you be?

Would you deny Christ?

Do you believe that denying the BoM is the same as denying Christ? Do you believe that denying Joseph Smith is the same as denying Christ?

If you answered yes to either of those last two questions…all it would take for you to become an atheist is to lose your belief in either the BoM or JS.

Further, C2M2C has already stated the dilemma of anyone who finds the religion they are in to be one grand deception. How do you know you aren’t being deceived, again? You keep saying that it isn’t possible to NOT believe in the BoM and still believe in Jesus Christ. Which is, in essence, telling C2M2C he has two choices, find a way to believe in Mormonism, or stop believing in Our Lord Jesus Christ altogether.

For lack of better word, it’s a major fubar. And you should be careful about leading people AWAY from Christ.

(In contrast, Christians base their belief entirely in one man, Jesus Christ. Which you keep trying to prove as a false belief!)

 

[BRB]

Let’s be honest, I have heard many Mormons say “if it’s not us it’s the Catholics” and I think that is a pretty fair, accurate assesment knowing what I know now. .

Very interesting … do Mormons think this only because of Catholic emphasis on Covenants & Family ?

 

[BRB]

Stop making stuff up!

Who says we don’t?

Rebecca … its good to hear you don’t fit the Catholic mold he speaks of.

But, I do know what he is refering to. There are Catholics who don’t believe in personal rebirths or present day ‘revelations’.

I come across these expressed ideas all the time here on CAF.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca … its good to hear you don’t fit the Catholic mold he speaks of.

But, I do know what he is refering to. There are Catholics who don’t believe in personal rebirths or present day ‘revelations’.

I come across these expressed ideas all the time here on CAF.

I think you misunderstand what people are expressing.

 

[BRB]

I
The Church provides THE MOST thorough method for testing. It takes into account the many avenues of revelation. It teaches us how to recognize true “Spirit revelation” from prideful “self revelation”. If a revelation comes in some “miraculous way” such as an apparition, the Church will investigate with a healthy dose of skepticism to ensure it is true. The Term “Devil’s advocate” is even a Church term for someone charged with this task of being a “skeptic”.

Thanks for pointing out the Church doctrines.

The Church used to employ a ‘devils advocate’ to argue against one being considered for canonized sainthood … until they decided their criteria are so rigorous, that it is no longer needed in making correct call on sainthood status.

Sadly, the average Catholic knows little if any scripture or serious Church history. The average Protestant knows far more scripture … but, little Christian history either – except the biblical one.

How can Catholics be comfortable knowing what a poor job we have done educating the laity ? We have a major reformation task ahead in this regard.

 

[BRB]

I think you misunderstand what people are expressing.

I hope you are right … because I know you are right in accepting these aspects of our Christianity as extremely valuable.

 

[cazayoux]

Very interesting … do Mormons think this only because of Catholic emphasis on Covenants & Family ?

They think this because they recognize the Catholic Church can connected themselves to the apostles and non-Catholic Christians cannot.

At least that is what the gentlemen that came to my door expressed.

michel

 

[BRB]

To C2M2C:

See what I mean?

Do you really want to be associated with these kind of people?

Be sure to read that post “Mormon Stumpers” and you will see how distorted it is.

This is an absurd conclusion !!!

Educated, enlightened answers from Catholics are being presented … exposing the errs of your faith. What ‘kind’ of people are you looking for ? Only someone who will confirm your church’s unsupported mythology ?

 

[C2M2C]

Very interesting … do Mormons think this only because of Catholic emphasis on Covenants & Family ?

No, because either there was Apostolic succession which makes the Catholic Church true, or there was a great apostasy which makes the Mormon church true- as it was explained to me anyway…

 

[BRB]

You don’t seem qualified to speak about the Book Of Mormon, which is essential here; it becomes a question of scriptural interpretation. ?

I’d bet some Catholics here have examined the Book of Mormon.

I recently read Joseph Smith’s account of receiving his revelation from angel.

It had zero inspirational value. It was clearly contrived, patterned off OT writings … but, w/o any of their redeeming qualities.

Perhaps a child born into the faith can grow to accept such an account as believable … but, for an educated adult to read such and accept as ‘gospel’ [or even history] speaks of major credulity.

 

[BRB]

Let me spell it out for you.

Your religion is built on a lie, well, actually more than one. But the two biggest are 1) the BoM and 2) a great apostasy.

Mormons who all of the sudden see lie #1 (the BoM) often hold onto the belief of lie #2. And continue to use the misinformation they received about Christianity from Mormonism…ie, it’s all WRONG. You promote this when you say, if the BoM is false, so is the Bible (or specifically Jesus.)

You yourself are displaying this tendency. The only difference is that you still believe in lie #1. Ask yourself, if you no longer believed in the BoM, what religion would you be?

Would you deny Christ?

Do you believe that denying the BoM is the same as denying Christ? Do you believe that denying Joseph Smith is the same as denying Christ?

If you answered yes to either of those last two questions…all it would take for you to become an atheist is to lose your belief in either the BoM or JS.

Further, C2M2C has already stated the dilemma of anyone who finds the religion they are in to be one grand deception. How do you know you aren’t being deceived, again? You keep saying that it isn’t possible to NOT believe in the BoM and still believe in Jesus Christ. Which is, in essence, telling C2M2C he has two choices, find a way to believe in Mormonism, or stop believing in Our Lord Jesus Christ altogether.

For lack of better word, it’s a major fubar. And you should be careful about leading people AWAY from Christ.

(In contrast, Christians base their belief entirely in one man, Jesus Christ. Which you keep trying to prove as a false belief!)

Wonderful expose’ … points out why Christians can in fairness truthfully point out that Mormonism is a cult.

 

[hosemonkey]

I’d bet some Catholics here have examined the Book of Mormon.

I recently read Joseph Smith’s account of receiving his revelation from angel.

A major point regarding the way that the BOM is “sold” has been brought out many times by Catholics on these forums. You are given a BOM and told to pray about wether it is “true.” If you do read it and get a “warm fuzzy”, you are then told that the “Holy Spirit” has confirmed the truth of the BOM and thereby, mormonism. If you DON’T get the warm fuzzy, then you “haven’t prayed hard enough or your faith is weak”. It is all based on a subjective “feeling” or “Burning in the bosom”. Hardly the way to discern your eternal salvation. And yes, you are correct, mormons have a huge credulity problem.

 

[mfbukowski]

Let me spell it out for you.

Your religion is built on a lie, well, actually more than one. But the two biggest are 1) the BoM and 2) a great apostasy.

Mormons who all of the sudden see lie #1 (the BoM) often hold onto the belief of lie #2. And continue to use the misinformation they received about Christianity from Mormonism…ie, it’s all WRONG. You promote this when you say, if the BoM is false, so is the Bible (or specifically Jesus.)

You yourself are displaying this tendency. The only difference is that you still believe in lie #1. Ask yourself, if you no longer believed in the BoM, what religion would you be?

Would you deny Christ?

Do you believe that denying the BoM is the same as denying Christ? Do you believe that denying Joseph Smith is the same as denying Christ?

If you answered yes to either of those last two questions…all it would take for you to become an atheist is to lose your belief in either the BoM or JS.

Further, C2M2C has already stated the dilemma of anyone who finds the religion they are in to be one grand deception. How do you know you aren’t being deceived, again? You keep saying that it isn’t possible to NOT believe in the BoM and still believe in Jesus Christ. Which is, in essence, telling C2M2C he has two choices, find a way to believe in Mormonism, or stop believing in Our Lord Jesus Christ altogether.

For lack of better word, it’s a major fubar. And you should be careful about leading people AWAY from Christ.

(In contrast, Christians base their belief entirely in one man, Jesus Christ. Which you keep trying to prove as a false belief!)

I genuinely appreciate your concern for me. I am not kidding.

I actually find it kind of touching

I will never deny Christ. I think you are misunderstanding my points. The bible is true as well as the BOM. Should anyone decide the BOM is not “true”, that says nothing about the bible.

I am sorry my post was so misunderstood. I will try once more to make the point, which is not really that big a point anyway.

I will put it in Mormon terms because I know you were raised LDS and maybe that will communicate better, and I obviously have not communicated it well.

All I was trying to say is that it seems catholics base their “testimony” of Jesus Christ on the Catholic Church and the fact of its historical tradition. It seems to me that they do not have what we Mormons would call a “testimony” of Jesus – that is, their own personal understanding by the spirit that Jesus was the Christ.

What I was saying was that if you deny the importance of having your own testimony, that is, a spiritual experience confirming to you that Jesus is the Christ and if you base your knowledge of Jesus only on tradition, you might as well be Jewish, since their tradition is so much longer than the catholic tradition.

That is, if you think tradition brings truth, why not go with the longest tradition?

My argument was just a variation of the “it’s true because it’s old” idea that seems to me so prevalent on these boards. I really don’t see how that works.

But it is real question I have about catholicism. You seem to deny the importance of any kind of “testimony experience” or discount it to the point of blatant ridicule.

You say you must have reason mixed with faith. Well who would disagree with that? But what finally decides it? Reason or what seems right?

And is there any sense in which Catholics have what Mormons would call a “testimony”?

Maybe that is a new thread?

 

[mfbukowski]

You do seem to be hell bent on promoting the errors of modern atheist philosophers…

Well now I think we are getting to some interesting issues. Many of what you would call “atheist philosophers” turn out to be religious in some sense on an individual personal level. I have never been afraid at pursuing the truth, and I have found that looking squarely at these issues has in fact given me a rational basis for my faith. I think it makes no sense to stick one’s head in the sand and not examine the issues, which is at first blush what one wants to do I suppose. I did go through an atheist phase, but then found I was totally wrong. And what blew me out of atheism was a religious experience that I cannot deny to this day.

Philosophy is about language and logic. But there are experiences which transcend language and logic. “Eyes have not seen nor ears heard…” So language and logic have their limits.

You look like a guy like Derrida who to all appearances was a total atheist, yet there is strong evidence he was in fact a mystic who with his Jewish background was into the kabbalah. Now I suppose Catholics believe that is the “occult”, which I guess it is, but here was this guy who ultimately believed in God.

What was that quote of Francis of Assisi? something like: “preach the gospel always, and when necessary use words?” To me THAT is right on the money.

Words have their place, philosophy has its place, but the most important things in life are not words or rationality. Knowing God the way you know someone very close to you is what it is all about. And when you are with someone very close to you, words are not necessary.

The problem is keeping it all in the right “pigeon hole”.

Thanks for your post. I have seen some of your others as just posturing which I guess is understandable in this forum, but I see there is a real person out there after all.

 

[mfbukowski]

Wow guys- are we actually getting civilized? Two good ones in a row?

 

[mfbukowski]

I genuinely appreciate your concern for me. I am not kidding.

I actually find it kind of touching

I will never deny Christ. I think you are misunderstanding my points. The bible is true as well as the BOM. Should anyone decide the BOM is not “true”, that says nothing about the bible.

I am sorry my post was so misunderstood. I will try once more to make the point, which is not really that big a point anyway.

I will put it in Mormon terms because I know you were raised LDS and maybe that will communicate better, and I obviously have not communicated it well.

All I was trying to say is that it seems catholics base their “testimony” of Jesus Christ on the Catholic Church and the fact of its historical tradition. It seems to me that they do not have what we Mormons would call a “testimony” of Jesus – that is, their own personal understanding by the spirit that Jesus was the Christ.

What I was saying was that if you deny the importance of having your own testimony, that is, a spiritual experience confirming to you that Jesus is the Christ and if you base your knowledge of Jesus only on tradition, you might as well be Jewish, since their tradition is so much longer than the catholic tradition.

That is, if you think tradition brings truth, why not go with the longest tradition?

My argument was just a variation of the “it’s true because it’s old” idea that seems to me so prevalent on these boards. I really don’t see how that works.

But it is real question I have about catholicism. You seem to deny the importance of any kind of “testimony experience” or discount it to the point of blatant ridicule.

You say you must have reason mixed with faith. Well who would disagree with that? But what finally decides it? Reason or what seems right?

And is there any sense in which Catholics have what Mormons would call a “testimony”?

Maybe that is a new thread?

I love answering my own questions.

Just found this thread, which already exists, and it seems to overwhelmingly justify my point that Catholics believe their church is true because it is old.

Am I wrong?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=236912