Catholic to Mormon to Catholic?

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would advise that you continue your research in this area and you may find that the bible itself is not all it is cracked up to be.

But the idea remains: History is not testimony. Most biblical historians are agnostics or very close to being so. Faith is the only answer.
Bible not all its cracked up to be ??? As meaning what ? You obviously feel the BoM is more prophetic and inspired :eek:

Give us some passages from the Bible that don’t ‘crack’ the ethics/moral standards you need to believe.

Objective history not testimony ? What … we should accept J.S.'s mythic account of history over it :o
 
Bible not all its cracked up to be ??? As meaning what ? You obviously feel the BoM is more prophetic and inspired :eek:

Give us some passages from the Bible that don’t ‘crack’ the ethics/moral standards you need to believe.

Objective history not testimony ? What … we should accept J.S.'s mythic account of history over it :o
Bible not all it is cracked up to be is just one example of the atheism that has crept into his “reasoning”.
 
Ahh sounds like the Spielberg effect is wearing off… You know, Mormons tell you an emotion something like the warm fuzzy you get at a Spielberg movie is the sure way to tell the truth… Spielberg is god’s prophet and the movie is god’s word because you felt warm and fuzzy??? Oh really. Anyway you have joined the crowd leaving the Mormon Church due to the information age and the revealing of real Mormon history. Consider the following facts…

”The LDS church Newspaper Deseret Morning News Published: Thursday, Feb. 14, 2008 reported: “Late President Gordon B. Hinckley once told the Quorum of the Twelve, “Brethren, when my life is finished and the final services are concluding, I am going to rise up as I go by, look each of you in the eye and say, 'How are we doing on retention?”’ Retention has become a real focus. For you don’t need an abacus to know many members have left the building.
What happened to them?”

In the United States, Mormons are departing from the faith as fast as converts are joining. Converts rarely remain active in the Mormon Church. The official Mormon reaction to the articles stating that there are significantly less than 12 million members worldwide.

This is from a Salt Lake Tribune article Sep. 1st, 2005 quoting Merrill Bateman, a Mormon Seventy

“…He agreed the LDS Church’s worldwide membership, reported at 12 million, includes many who no longer consider themselves Mormon, but he disagreed with researchers who estimated active Mormons equal only 4 million.

Point: The facts are leading you to the truth and you should not be afraid to aggressively help your friends see the truth about Mormonism. Many have left and many more will leave, it is only a matter of someone telling the truth to those who are honest enough to hear it. If you can get past the devil trying to re-write history and speak evil of the way of truth at every point you will surely become a true Catholic… XMormon
 
I don’t remember where I read this or who taught it to me but here goes:

When you look at how God has Revealed Himself to us, it starts small. First, two one couple, Adam and Eve. Then to a tribe (Abraham). Then to a people (the 12 tribes of Israel). Then to a kingdom (David). Then to the world (Jesus Christ).
Exactly!! …
In the history of God’s covenantal relationship with man, we see it INCREASING in size.
(It was Scott Hahn that I learned this from.)
A marriage (Adam and Eve)
A family (Noah)
A tribe (Abraham)
A kingdom (Jacob who is Israel, the 12 tribes)
An international kingdom (David)
To the entire world (Jesus)

Any religion that denies the catholicity (universality) of the faith of Jesus just isn’t logical for me… and I would warn against it.

another reason to ponder for WHY the faith is now opened to all people.
The messiah was to reunite the kingdom (12 tribes), but this would be seemingly impossible since 10 of the tribes were ‘lost’.
Well … not lost so much as in the North and disseminated with the locals for generations… the blood of the lost tribes was sacred, but no longer pure.
The ONLY way to bring the blood of the lost tribes back into union was to open the relationship with God to all people.
Not sure if this thought came out right … sorry if it didn’t.

Cheers!

michel
 
Just a few questions.
1- If there is no marriage in heaven then why get married in the church?
a. why get married at all?
2- Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy; define from a Catholic perspective. Mormons keep it Holy by going to church and spending time with family. No work, and do not do things that require other people to work
3- Death bed repentance? Mormons believe this is not acceptable to God
4- Intercessory prayer; have a hard time with this one. Praying to someone else besides God… “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me”
5- I have been studying Eastern Orthodox a little and wonder how do we know that they aren’t correct in there assertions. They also claim to be One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

Scriptural references would be helpful.

P.S. Went to RCIA with wife Thursday. She cried at first, but she’ll be okay
 
Hi C2M2C,
Just a few questions.
1- If there is no marriage in heaven then why get married in the church?
Because marriage is holy. Marriage is a sacrament. True, it is not, strictly speaking, confered upon the couple by* the priest*, but rather they confer it upon one another, and the priest blesses it (so a Mormon or Jewish marriage is not “invalid” in the Catholic Church).

Marriage is a covenant “till death do you part”, that is, it is confined to “this life”, but that doesn’t in any way make it something bad.

Perhaps someone can give a fuller explanation here… as a single person it has never been of particular interest to me 🙂
a. why get married at all?
Because marriage is good. While on the other hand, it is not good for man to be alone, and most people are called to find that special someone to share their life, struggles and joys.

Marriage is where man is fully living his life as created in the image of God… As former pope John Paul II said, “God is family” God is fellowship… God is giving and receiving. The Trinity, I believe, is best viewed as a community of love. So the Catholic family is also a witness to the world and to the Church.

Besides… we need to raise a new generation to pass on our faith and our culture. If all Christians lived a celibate life, missionary activity would lead to some sort of collective sterilization.
2- Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy; define from a Catholic perspective. Mormons keep it Holy by going to church and spending time with family. No work, and do not do things that require other people to work
I think that’s basically the same as in the Catholic Church…
3- Death bed repentance? Mormons believe this is not acceptable to God
Catholics believe it is. Of course it may be argued that a cold, rationalizing “postponing to the last moment” is very unlikely to result in a genuine conversion. Also, very few of us actually know when we will die. I could be hit by a truck tomorrow, or my heart could fail me before I even get to posting this message (if you read this, it didn’t).

And of course there’s always purgatory… 😉
4- Intercessory prayer; have a hard time with this one. Praying to someone else besides God… “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me”
Praying to the saints (when rightly practiced) is ultimately about praying with the saints. Praying with someone in Heaven is not essentially different from praying with someone on Earth. It may be argued, why should we ask someone else to pray for us when we can go straight to God… but then that would have to apply to the Church on Earth (Church Militant) as well as the Church in Heaven (Church Triumphant). And if we begin using that kind of logic on prayer, we might as well ask why we should pray at all, since God knows what we need before we pray.

The bottomline is, that God wants us to pray to him, and he wants us to come to him not merely as individuals, but as His people, or family. And so we pray along with our Mother, and our bigger brothers and sisters whether they be on Earth or in Heaven - remember: God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for unto Him, everyone is alive.

We rejoice with our Catholic Family, but it is only God we worship. We could never offer the sacrifice of the Mass to Mary… that would be idolatrous and heretical (and indeed, it has been condemned as such).

We honour Mary as queen and mother, like we honour our earthly mother and (if we have such) earthly queens. Only Mary is greater, since she is our spiritual mother and the mother of God, and since she is the Queen of Heaven. We do not honour her as godess. And if anyone do, they are most surely anathema.
5- I have been studying Eastern Orthodox a little and wonder how do we know that they aren’t correct in there assertions. They also claim to be One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
That’s a really good question, and I believe it is one that most converts from Protestant denominations will have to wrestle with at some point of time.

I don’t consider myself qualified, since there is a lot of politics, historical reasons, different developments, misunderstandings, bad translations (for starters: how would you translate filoque into Greek 😦 ).

For me, I guess it all comes down to the Pope. His claims to authority must mean that he is either the voice of God on Earth, or the Beast from the Apocalypse (which I held for most of my life). He is the voice of Christ or anti-Christ, I see no reasonable middle ground.

But there’s so much to it, and it is not an easy question… pray and study and read the Scriptures.

And pray for reunification 🙂
Scriptural references would be helpful.
Sorry, but I don’t usually have the patience to look stuff up, so I’m just quoting from the top of my head.
P.S. Went to RCIA with wife Thursday. She cried at first, but she’ll be okay
I will pray for you both…
  • CB
 
Just a few questions.
1- If there is no marriage in heaven then why get married in the church?
a. why get married at all?
. . .
Because the Church is the witness to this Sacrament instituted by Christ. This Sacrament is given by Christ to the bride and groom, and they, one to the other, that each may be an instrument to bring the other to Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church has a beautiful section on the subject:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p2s2c3a7.htm
2- Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy; define from a Catholic perspective. Mormons keep it Holy by going to church and spending time with family. No work, and do not do things that require other people to work
This Apostolic Letter of John Paul II presents the Catholic catechesis on the Lord’s Day:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini_en.html
3- Death bed repentance? Mormons believe this is not acceptable to God
Does the mercy of God depend on the length of time a person has been a sinner, or on the depth of repentance? Today’s Gospel applies:

Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Saint Matthew 21: 28-32.
What is your opinion? A man had two sons. He came to the first and said, ‘Son, go out and work in the vineyard today.’
He said in reply, ‘I will not,’ but afterwards he changed his mind and went.
The man came to the other son and gave the same order. He said in reply, ‘Yes, sir,’ but did not go.
Which of the two did his father’s will?" They answered, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Amen, I say to you, tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you.
When John came to you in the way of righteousness, you did not believe him; but tax collectors and prostitutes did. Yet even when you saw that, you did not later change your minds and believe him.
 
Just a few questions.
1- If there is no marriage in heaven then why get married in the church?
a. why get married at all?
2- Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy; define from a Catholic perspective. Mormons keep it Holy by going to church and spending time with family. No work, and do not do things that require other people to work
3- Death bed repentance? Mormons believe this is not acceptable to God
4- Intercessory prayer; have a hard time with this one. Praying to someone else besides God… “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me”
5- I have been studying Eastern Orthodox a little and wonder how do we know that they aren’t correct in there assertions. They also claim to be One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

Scriptural references would be helpful.

P.S. Went to RCIA with wife Thursday. She cried at first, but she’ll be okay
#1 … So husband / wife & children can be unified in their life purpose. Many will take Paul’s suggestion and not seek marriage.
#2 … Go to Mass, dedicate to God … avoid any unnecessary work. Use for reflection, scripture study, family activities, etc. Visit the sick, etc
#3 … If it found favor with Christ regarding thief on cross, we know it is valid.
#4 … Praying to Mary, the Apostles, and other Saints is not our primary prayer. We first are to pray to the Father, thru the Son. Probably 90 % of the time we should speak directly to the Trinity.

Everyone is already comfortable asking a friend, parent, a priest or minister to pray for them. Why think once someone leaves this world they can no longer assist us ? There is no harm in thanking them for their help. We also have guardian angels we should thank on occasion. Would Christ be upset if we also ask these other saints to aide us ?

Any request we might make to these Saints … goes to Christ.

#5 They were generally united with the RCC for first 1000 years.
 
All of those were very good, I appreciate the responses. A couple other things…

1- Why did Solomon build the temple
a- What was don on the temple
b- Why don’t we have temples today

2- Mormons proselytize to “spread the word”. Why don’t Catholics engage in this practice as fervently as Mormons or other denominations?
 
How about fasting? Mormons teach that fasting will help you grow spritually and that it will stengthen you when trying to find answers to prayers, either for yourself or others.
 
…and one more for today. Baptism for my kids who are 8,6,4,& 1. Per Mormonism my 8 year old has been baptized. What would be the process for them?
 
1- Why did Solomon build the temple
The Temple was build to have a worthy place to put the Ark of the Covenant and perform sacrifices. Until then this had been done in a tent(!) even though the king lived in luxury at the palace.

Quite fittingly, it was Solomon, “The Son of David” who built it.
a- What was don on the temple
The main thing was the offering of sacrifices. There was also music and I guess a few other things.
b- Why don’t we have temples today
There are two answers to that.
  1. Because we don’t have the Ark of the Covenant here on earth. The Temple was centered around the Ark of the Covenant, which was a wooden box clothed with gold which contained the Word of God in stone, the priestly rod of Aron which had budded, and manna from the time in the desert. The Ark was hidden by one of the prophets to prevent it from falling into Pagan hands (it’s in one of the Maccabean books, I think) and has never been found.
Since then, the Holiest of Holies was vacant.

But in the New Covenant, God naturally saw it fitting that there should also be an Ark of the New Covenant. This Covenant was not wood clad with gold, but a young Jewess conceived without original sin, pure and sanctified that she might carry the Word of God in flesh, the High-priest like Aron and Melchizedek, and the True Bread of Heaven.

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, as the Apocalypse implicitly tells us. And according to very early tradition, Mary was assumed into Heaven, into the Heavenly temple (which is basically what the Apocalypse is about).
  1. We do. Every church is designed to be an image of the much greater Temple in Heaven. That is where we offer the sacrifice of the Mass, that is where we pray and worship God.
We don’t strictly speaking need buildings, and indeed in the first centuries, it would be difficult to have any public places of worship… But it is nonetheless a strong witness to the Incarnation - God has become part of history - God has become part of physical reality.

Our churches are modelled after the Temple in the Apocalypse. In Rev. 4 John sees God’s throne in Heaven, and has thus become the inspiration for the basilica (literally: king’s room, it is build like the throne rooms of emperors and kings) which is especially popular in the Western Church. In Rev. 21, he sees the New Jerusalem coming descending from Heaven, which is in a sense reflected in the other type of church, the name of which suddenly failed me 🙂 which is especially popular in the East (the Hagia Sohpia is one of those).

Also the use of candles, liturgical vestments, incense is supposed to reflect the liturgy of the Apocalypse and the Temple of the Old Covenant.
2- Mormons proselytize to “spread the word”. Why don’t Catholics engage in this practice as fervently as Mormons or other denominations?
You are right, that Catholics in the western world has in many ways become a bit too relaxed and laid back. But unfortunately that’s the facts of living in a Church of saints and sinners…

I understand why the world is offended by Christians saying one thing and living another, and I know that their Lord will hold them accountable one day for the riches, namely the Gospel, which he entrusted to them…

I personally try to invest the Gospel in the best possible way. As you know from the parable, not everyone got the same amount of money to invest. I personally am not a good “evangelist”. I can’t stand up on a street corner and speak to people I don’t know (I have tried, and it is a bad investment 😉 ). What I can do, is try to conform my life to the rule of Jesus Christ, and thus witness with my life. I can also talk with people I do know (which comes rather easily to me). And last but not least, I can spread propaganda like all the above via the internet… 🙂

I think that is my main tasks in the Kingdom of God at present. Along with praying and paying 🙂

I don’t think God is gonna ask me why I didn’t go out on every street and shout the Gosepel aloud, because he has not made me so as to be able to do that.
  • CB
 
How about fasting? Mormons teach that fasting will help you grow spritually and that it will stengthen you when trying to find answers to prayers, either for yourself or others.
I think we agree again.

Fasting is an important part of Catholic spirituality. You are supposed to give up something on Fridays (in memory and honour of the sufferings of Christ) and in the Lenten season - and whenever else the Lord calls you to fast.

Idealy the Catholic will discuss such things with his spiritual director, who will try to guide him around the pitfalls. He can also help him find our what things to fast from (a “full” fast, a no-meat fast, sleeping on a blanket rather than a bed, etc.)

Catholic literature is full of instructions on fasting and the mortification of the flesh in general.

So yes, Catholics do fast. 🙂
…and one more for today. Baptism for my kids who are 8,6,4,& 1. Per Mormonism my 8 year old has been baptized. What would be the process for them?
For all the others, they would be baptized in the Catholic Church. I’m not sure what the process is for the 8-year-old, but if he has been baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, he does not need to be baptized again.
  • CB
 
For all the others, they would be baptized in the Catholic Church. I’m not sure what the process is for the 8-year-old, but if he has been baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, he does not need to be baptized again.
I have seen that Catholics do not accept Mormon baptisms, only those that have been performed saying the words you mention above, however I baptized my son and this is what was said:

“…having been commissioned of Jesus Christ I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen”

So what is the issue with Mormon baptisms then?
 
I have seen that Catholics do not accept Mormon baptisms, only those that have been performed saying the words you mention above, however I baptized my son and this is what was said:

“…having been commissioned of Jesus Christ I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen”

So what is the issue with Mormon baptisms then?
The LDS has a defective understanding of the Trinity. They might say the same words, but they don’t mean the same thing.
 
I have seen that Catholics do not accept Mormon baptisms, only those that have been performed saying the words you mention above, however I baptized my son and this is what was said:

“…having been commissioned of Jesus Christ I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen”

So what is the issue with Mormon baptisms then?
C2M2C,

My father baptized me in the Mormon church when I was 8 yrs old. I was baptized again as a Catholic. To be honest, it was one of the hardest points of my conversion because I know what that meant to my dad. But, I wanted to be baptized in the Catholic Church, and looked forward very much to that day.

All of your family should be baptized. A beautiful and happy day that would be. You should work with the folks in RCIA. My guess is, that you and your 8 yr old would be baptized at Easter Vigil, and your younger children in a more private baptism.

I recommend you take your 8 year old with you to RCIA. But again, check with the folks that are running the RCIA you are attending.

If you are interested, you can see a recording of an Easter Vigil here. The baptisms are about 1:42, followed by Confirmation. (The whole video is over 3 hours long.)

As to the validity of LDS baptisms. Like many words that have been used in Christianity since the time of the Apostles, the LDS Church had redefined the word “God”. Giving God attributes that no other Church believes.

As a baptism is done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it is important that the intent is the same as well as the words that are said. Because Mormons have a different definition of Who God Is, the intent of an LDS baptism is not the same as that of the Catholic Church. For this reason, LDS baptisms are not valid.

This isn’t saying anything negative about people who are LDS. Baptism is an important Sacrament, one that should be valid.
 
My guess is, that you and your 8 yr old would be baptized at Easter Vigil, and your younger children in a more private baptism.
My understanding is that having already been baptized Catholic, I never stopped being Catholic and would not need to be baptized back into the church again…true?
 
My understanding is that having already been baptized Catholic, I never stopped being Catholic and would not need to be baptized back into the church again…true?
Ah yes, I forgot that about you. No, you will not need to be baptized. If you have not been confirmed and/or received first communion that will need to be done. If you have received those sacraments, you just need to go to confession.

But I do recommend that you go through RCIA. 🙂
 
C2M2C,

My father baptized me in the Mormon church when I was 8 yrs old. I was baptized again as a Catholic. To be honest, it was one of the hardest points of my conversion because I know what that meant to my dad. But, I wanted to be baptized in the Catholic Church, and looked forward very much to that day.

All of your family should be baptized. A beautiful and happy day that would be. You should work with the folks in RCIA. My guess is, that you and your 8 yr old would be baptized at Easter Vigil, and your younger children in a more private baptism.

I recommend you take your 8 year old with you to RCIA. But again, check with the folks that are running the RCIA you are attending.

If you are interested, you can see a recording of an Easter Vigil here. The baptisms are about 1:42, followed by Confirmation. (The whole video is over 3 hours long.)

As to the validity of LDS baptisms. Like many words that have been used in Christianity since the time of the Apostles, the LDS Church had redefined the word “God”. Giving God attributes that no other Church believes.

As a baptism is done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it is important that the intent is the same as well as the words that are said. Because Mormons have a different definition of Who God Is, the intent of an LDS baptism is not the same as that of the Catholic Church. For this reason, LDS baptisms are not valid.

This isn’t saying anything negative about people who are LDS. Baptism is an important Sacrament, one that should be valid.
I’m glad you mentioned intent. I should have added it.
 
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