Catholic Tradition Is Confusing To Other Christians

[1voice]

I was discussing how Catholic traditions are so confusing to the rest of us

over here in this discussion
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=548861&page=13
The topic of the Scapular kind of starts at post #183 …

and I was asked to start this new thread … So anyway… Here is an example of the confusion I dealt with as a Catholic kid…

As a child I wore a scapular … and was told by my Grandmother, lay head of the Order of St Francis … and in the Blue Army … as she sewed on one of those thousands of Scapulars that she and her friends made …
… that if you died wearing it and said 5 decades of the Rosary daily … you were saved from hell.
As a child I believed every word… as a young adult I came to realize that salvation had nothing to do with Scapulars … or Rosaries…
This is the way to salvation as far as I understand:
“For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.”

• Romans 10:9-10

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Acts 2:38

The scriptures that I quoted above were never taught to me … In 8 years of Catholic School and 4 years of CCD through High School … In fact I was taught that there was no real assurance of salvation and that saying so was a sin of presumption. Just live a good life and hope that it is good enough to only go to purgatory. The official Canonized Saints were the only ones that we know for sure are in Heaven.

?

 

[JimG]

I was discussing how Catholic traditions are so confusing to the rest of us

over here in this discussion
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=548861&page=13
The topic of the Scapular kind of starts at post #183 …

and I was asked to start this new thread … So anyway… Here is an example of the confusion I dealt with as a Catholic kid…

As a child I wore a scapular … and was told by my Grandmother, lay head of the Order of St Francis … and in the Blue Army … as she sewed on one of those thousands of Scapulars that she and her friends made …
… that if you died wearing it and said 5 decades of the Rosary daily … you were saved from hell.
As a child I believed every word… as a young adult I came to realize that salvation had nothing to do with Scapulars … or Rosaries…
This is the way to salvation as far as I understand:
“For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.”

• Romans 10:9-10

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Acts 2:38

The scriptures that I quoted above were never taught to me … In 8 years of Catholic School and 4 years of CCD through High School … In fact I was taught that there was no real assurance of salvation and that saying so was a sin of presumption. Just live a good life and hope that it is good enough to only go to purgatory. The official Canonized Saints were the only ones that we know for sure are in Heaven.

?

Wait–looking at your quotes: Peter said to repent and be baptized. So is repenting AND being baptized all that’s required? Or just confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead? Or must we confess, believe, repent, and be baptized? That’s four things. And what if we later change our minds and take it all back?

 

[ANNE_2]

The best book for non-Catholics and Catholics alike is “Catholicism for Dummies” by Fr. Trigilio and Brighenti. It has an Imprimatur, so the facts are correct. The book explains why Catholics do what they do.

Paraphrasing from the book -
Catholics often wear special religious articles such as medals or scapulars as a type of personal devotion. Catholics don’t believe that medals or scapulars are good luck charms, magical amulets, or the like. They don’t believe that medals or scapulars prevent sickness, keep people from sinning. And they are not a get-out-of-hell free card. Catholics use them as mere reminders to stay close to God and to try to imitate the sanctity and holiness of the Saints. They’re tangible symbols of the Faith, such as a crucifix. Scapulars are good reminders of prayer and faith. etc. etc. etc.

Also for the truth about what those who choose to be Catholic are required to believe and adhere to try the “Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition” which was first printed in the USA in March 2000.
CCC " 2111 Superstition is the deviation of religious feeling and of the practices this feeling imposes. It can even affect the worship we offer the true God, e.g., when one attributes an importance in some way magical to certain practices otherwise lawful or necessary. To attribute the efficacy of prayers or of sacramental signs to their mere external performance, apart from the interior dispositions that they demand, is to fall into superstition."

 

[1voice]

Wait–looking at your quotes: Peter said to repent and be baptized. So is repenting AND being baptized all that’s required? Or just confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead? Or must we confess, believe, repent, and be baptized? That’s four things. And what if we later change our minds and take it all back?

… Well, Just dont lose your scapular …

 

[PolyphonyChick]

As a child I wore a scapular … and was told by my Grandmother, lay head of the Order of St Francis … and in the Blue Army … as she sewed on one of those thousands of Scapulars that she and her friends made …
… that if you died wearing it and said 5 decades of the Rosary daily … you were saved from hell.
As a child I believed every word… as a young adult I came to realize that salvation had nothing to do with Scapulars … or Rosaries…
This is the way to salvation as far as I understand:
“For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.”

• Romans 10:9-10

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Acts 2:38

The scriptures that I quoted above were never taught to me … In 8 years of Catholic School and 4 years of CCD through High School … In fact I was taught that there was no real assurance of salvation and that saying so was a sin of presumption. Just live a good life and hope that it is good enough to only go to purgatory. The official Canonized Saints were the only ones that we know for sure are in Heaven.

?

I am a little confused as to why you are so upset at your Catholic school education - I mean, first of all, most Catholics today will admit that we’ve been doing poorly when it comes to education. Second, so you come up with your own idea about salvation based on two verses without any context, and get mad that the Catholic school didn’t quote those two verses at you?

I don’t mean to be so blunt, I just think your anger is a little unfair. If you are so secure in your new faith, then there is no reason to spend so much effort and emotion on the Church.

 

[1voice]

I am a little confused as to why you are so upset at your Catholic school education - I mean, first of all, most Catholics today will admit that we’ve been doing poorly when it comes to education. Second, so you come up with your own idea about salvation based on two verses without any context, and get mad that the Catholic school didn’t quote those two verses at you?

I don’t mean to be so blunt, I just think your anger is a little unfair. If you are so secure in your new faith, then there is no reason to spend so much effort and emotion on the Church.

If you arent interested in answering the question thats fine.

 

[novusCatholic]

When I began to consider Catholicism, one of the first things that I did was purchase a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Church’s teaching are right there in black and white. It’s written in a format that is easy to read. I discovered that all of my negative preconceptions were baseless.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

If you arent interested in answering the question thats fine.

I didn’t see a question.

God bless

 

[1voice]

When I began to consider Catholicism, one of the first things that I did was purchase a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Church’s teaching are right there in black and white. It’s written in a format that is easy to read. I discovered that all of my negative preconceptions were baseless.

I read and studied it in Catholic School … I dont remember it dealing with scapulars.

 

[William_Pitts]

1Voice, Acts 2:38 is only the beginning of becoming a Christian. It is NOT all that is required. Peter was talking to a large group of Jews who may of may not have been there at the crucifixion of Christ. Peters discourse had put the fear of God in them. They wanted to know how they could escape the wrath of God.

One of the big problems with the method of using the Holy Scriptures that protestants and people taught by protestants is what I call “touch and go” exegesis. A verse here and part of a verse there. You have to take the Scriptures as a whole, in context, and not a few proof texts to support your theology. And if you theology is not confirmed in this manner it should be re-examined.

I don’t know all of the practices of members of the Catholic Church that observers may find confusing because I am new to the faith. But before I raise an objection I go back and look at the practice and where and when it began and what it is suppose to accomplish. Once it becomes clear it usually makes perfect sense. We have a lot of reminders to help keep us on the path.

May God Bless you and keep you.

 

[JM3]

I didn’t see a question.

God bless

?

Since no words accompany the question mark, I assumed it meant ‘confusion’.

 

[Wowbagger]

After eight years of Catholic school and four years of CCD, it is probably frustrating to realize this, but you’ve already realized it independently so we might as well say it aloud: Catholic religious education is perhaps the worst in the world. We are terrible at imparting the subtle realities of the Faith to our children. We always have been. Back before the Council, we told our kids a lot of worrisome nonsense about guaranteed salvation via scapular and our school system’s position on salvation was defined more by our opposition to Lutheranism than by alignment with Scripture and sacred tradition. In the '70’s, we told them that God was whatever we wanted Him to be and that Jesus was “our most undemanding friend” who probably wasn’t even really actually God anyway, but just some bloke who wanted us to love our neighbor, smile a lot, and oppose the Vietnam War. Today, we don’t tell them practically anything that’s distinctively Catholic at all, and the schools are ridden with heresy and dissent.

So, ignore it. Just put your twelve years of Catholic education in a mental box, tie it up with a bow, and drop it into the sea of useless memories with a brick attached to it, along with all the commercial jingles you’ve ever heard and your uncanny memory for the complete lyrics to the opening theme of Welcome Back Kotter.

The scapular (and there are many varieties) is simply a pious practice. It is a reminder of God’s presence and an active sign of the Holy Spirit’s presence. There are some indulgences, granted as a gift of grace, which are associated with wearing a scapular while performing some devotional acts that draw you closer to God. But they are not ever a get-out-of-jail-free card. As the Catechism states, sacramentals like the scapular “do not confer the grace of the Holy Spirit in the way that the sacraments do, but by the Church’s prayer, they prepare us to receive grace and dispose us to cooperate with it.” It is good to wear them. I wear one myself. But the pre-conciliar attitude towards scapulars, including that of your aunt, bordered on superstition. Our ancestors were no doubt blameless in this, as the whole Catholic culture at the time had become very wrapped up in these sorts of devotional practices, but that doesn’t make them less wrong about it. I know I’m making a broad generalization here, but offense to pre-Council folks is intended.

The Bible is correct, of course. It always is. “If thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” This is true. The Catholic Church teaches that there is no real tension between “faith” and “works,” much as the Protestants try to say that there is. If you have faith – if you really believe in your heart that the Lord Jesus Christ was the son of God, risen from the dead for the salvation of all the world, then you will follow his teachings. A person who claims to believe in Christ, yet who does not try to live a good life full of good works, who does not daily strive for sainthood, does not really believe in Christ at all. (Likewise, the man who truly strives to love his neighbor and God will find it very difficult, in the long run, to avoid coming to profess the love of Christ.) Sin is not just an attack on ourselves or others; it is an act of faithlessness and disbelief in the saving promise of Christ. So we find that he with true Faith in Christ will be without sin.

The fact of the matter is, we are all imperfect, and we are all at times faithless. For this reason, we must all continually strive for heaven, for the perfection Christ called us to. While we live in the great hope and confidence that there are many, many saints in heaven, the institutional Church has investigated a very small portion of its holiest men and women and found good reason to believe that they are in Heaven. These men and women are canonized not as a benefit to them, but so that their lives might serve as a role model and inspiration for those of us who still struggle at the first stages of holiness. Certainly my faith has been deepened simply by studying the lives of Sts. Thomas More and Thomas Aquinas; I’m sure everyone here at CAF has a similar story of saints who inspired them.

I hope that helps.

I am not a theologian, so if any of my brother Catholics care to correct any details within this post, I am open to it.

 

[Sarah_Angel]

I read and studied it in Catholic School … I dont remember it dealing with scapulars.

I was born and raised Catholic, went to CCD and later Catholic school, and I never really heard of a scapular until a couple years ago.

Scapulars aren’t exactly the most important aspects of Catholic teaching… it’s really no big deal if they’re skipped over in school. I mean, they’re nice to have, but learning about the sacraments and prayer and apologetics and scripture take priority over scapulars.

 

[William_Pitts]

1Voice: It the other thread you said you don’t remember being taught about scapulars.
I believe they are discussed in the following paragraphs of the Catechism:

Sacramentals
1667-76
definition and significance of, 1667, 1677
forms of, 1671-73, 1678
laity may preside at the use of, 1669
powers of, 1668, 1670

 

[1voice]

I didn’t see a question.

God bless

Well…
I see nothing mentioned about a Scapular… or the rules attached to it … anywhere in the Bible.

…And as a boy I never heard taught … these solid assurances, that I quoted above from God’s word … But I knew crystal clearly not to lose my scapular.

I compare and contrast what I was taught as a boy with what I learned from reading the Bible. … The stark contrast is confusing and I wanted to know how it made sense to Catholics?

 

[Sarah_Angel]

This might help.

The Scriptures do not give us a clear indication of the scapular but from them (the Scriptures) we know certain things. However, we do know that Mount Carmel was where the Great Prophet St. Elijah took refuge. “So she went forward, and came to the man of God to Mount Carmel” (2 Kings 4:25), but this doesn’t show us the true significance of the scapular, but later shows us that we should take refuge in the divine trust of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Nevertheless, we come to see the true value of this Garment (the Scapular) in the New Testament as it can be liked to the healing of a woman who was sick, but was healed, only when touching the clothes of Christ (Luke 8:46), this can be liked to the scapular in that by this garment we also put our faithin heavenly assistance in all our needs and troubles.

We must also note that the Sacred Scriptures contains many promises that seem to demand only one condition, as well much like the scapularas we read in St. Paul’s writings to the Romans (Rom 8:24) that he says that we are saved by hope. Further we read that Tobias 12:9 says, "It is almsgiving that saves one from eternal death. And Our Lord Himself promises eternal life to those who receive the Holy Eucharist (John 6:52).

catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/Scapular.htm

Sorry that this is poorly written. I didn’t write it. :S

By the way, it may help to read all the posts in a thread and gather an understanding from all of them rather than just responding to individual ones and ignoring the others.

 

[Sarah_Angel]

Well…
I see nothing mentioned about a Scapular… or the rules attached to it … anywhere in the Bible.

…And as a boy I never heard taught … these solid assurances, that I quoted above from God’s word … But I knew crystal clearly not to lose my scapular.

I compare and contrast what I was taught as a boy with what I learned from reading the Bible. … The stark contrast is confusing and I wanted to know how it made sense to Catholics?

Also it is unfortunately normal to have received a poor Catholic education. If you navigate this website and other Catholic resources, you will discover more about the Catholic faith than you would have ever learned in school.

Even though I would say that my Catholic education was very good, there is still more that I am discovering about it that I didn’t know in my grade school days.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Since no words accompany the question mark, I assumed it meant ‘confusion’.

Maybe. I just saw a bunch of statements followed by what appeared to be an out of place question mark. He then jumped on another poster by claiming that the poster wasn’t asnwering his questions… having never asked any questions.

God bless

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Well…
I see nothing mentioned about a Scapular… or the rules attached to it … anywhere in the Bible.

…And as a boy I never heard taught … these solid assurances, that I quoted above from God’s word … But I knew crystal clearly not to lose my scapular.

I compare and contrast what I was taught as a boy with what I learned from reading the Bible. … The stark contrast is confusing and I wanted to know how it made sense to Catholics?

I don’t agree with your premise. ISTM that you are asserting that the ‘assurance of salvation’ belief is the Biblical position and then are asking how it makes sense to Catholics to not hold your position. Assurance of salvation is heavily debated even amongst Protestants. So to answer your question; if you ask me how it feels to not take heed of your personal and fallible interpretation of the Scriptures…

I am sorry you feel let down by your Catholic education. My RCIA classes gave me a good and solid foundation but it was in no way all inclusive of the Catholic faith. A lot was left to me to continue to grow spiritually and in knowledge of my faith.

God bless you

 

[Qwikness]

I looked up stuff about scapulars. Here is a very good quote from another thread.
I hope this helps.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=358360

Well, it’s kind of like the whole ‘faith and works’ thing.

Nobody denies that we are saved by faith (which in itself is a free gift). We also know that God has given each of us in life sufficient grace whereby we can be saved. . .which grace we have free will to accept or reject.

Now the brown scapular is a pious practice/ devotion. Graces are conferred. Certainly one could be saved without ever engaging in any pious practice/devotion such as this. Certainly, one could live a whole life practicing every devotion in the book and still wind up not saved.

Then why would one choose a devotion? Not because we think that God will give us ‘extras’. Not because we think He will ‘only’ take those who do such things.

We choose these devotions as a pious practice, exercises in humility, in acknowledging that we in and of ourselves can do nothing to ‘gain’ salvation. We are told of graces we can achieve through such practices when done with the proper intention.

Now. . .I’m sure you’re imaging a guy (call him Philip) who wears the brown scapular and thinks, “I’m good to go now.” But Phil lives a very sinful life while wearing that scapular.

When Phil dies, rest assured, there will be some way that he isn’t wearing that scapular. God will not be mocked. If (as we believe) God has the power to give graces as He wills, He likewise has the power to know when His graces are being denied, or presumed unfairly. He WILL take care of this. We can trust Him.

What we should be doing if we are invested in the Brown Scapular is not indulging in all sorts of “What if” ideas but simply living our lives for Jesus as best we can, listening to Him, trusting Him, and obeying Him. If he has given us a promise, He WILL BE true to that promise. There will be nobody who will somehow ‘get in’ unfairly because of the Brown Scapular; neither will there be those denied simply because they 'didn’t wear a scapular."

Trust Him.