Catholic Tradition /MariaG

[edwinG]

Hi,
I do hope you don’t mind my starting here again. I would also like to apologise for straying off the subject when I answered on your original post. I will try to answer your original post as honestly as possible with clarity.
I am not a Roman Catholic
I am not even a person steeped in any church or any tradition. My knowledge of history is zero.
I do not know what your traditions are, but I fear what I don’t know.
Some things scare me and I dont know whether these are what you call traditions or if they fall into some other category.
I keep finding things and I wonder just how many there are.
examples
To be a Roman Catholic I believe you have to make a formal submission to the authority of the Roman Catholic church.
I only want to submit myself to Christ in God. I want only Him as my Lord and Master. I can not split hairs as Roman Catholics seem to do on this issue. I can not submit to man. Who will deny the pope is a man? Does he bleed?
I can not accept that any living person ( Jesus excepted) is infallible.
I can not understand your position on Mary.
I was watching EWTN and saw ( I think) Mother Theresa promoting a piece of brown material, a piece of Mary’s dress, I think and saying how it will benefit you. I think you also have other pieces of material, ( for the car) I am not sure, but I can not separate these from idols. I can’t see how we need any one to intercede for us with Jesus. He says “let the children come to me” He doesnt say send them to Mary because she is a mother. He says He is a humble, and lowly and wont bruise the most tender christian. His yoke is a perfect fit, He will make our load light. I just can understand how you feel Mary is needed to intercede for us. To me I feel I am insulting Christ by saying He is not capable of doing His work.
I dont understand the position of the pope.
Mark16:17 And these signs will follow those who believe, In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents ; and if they drink anything deadly , it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick and they will recover."
Now I realize that this is a higher degree of faith than is common and faith is a gift from God, but it is also a gift which we can practise and improve, to strengthen. I do not know the measure of faith of any of the popes but obviously some have had weaker faith judging from some comments here.Therefore I do not want to submit to them. But none have had the faith of Peter and even he erred and had to be chastized. IT is so difficult.
So in summation, I can’t give my soul to the Roman Catholic church because of not only these things but because of all the things I am not aware of now but may become aware of after being a member.
I sincerely hope I am giving you the answer you are looking for MariaG. I am not being criticial of anyone in the church. Paul tells us to be aware of the others and not to put a stumbling block in the path of anyone, to always be mindful. I dont want to knock your faith, but to answer your question as best as I can. I want Christians to grow in the love and knowledge of Christ our Lord and to love one another.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[Todd_Easton]

You have a lot of concerns. I will try to address some of them in two posts.

edwinG:

you have to make a formal submission to the authority of the Roman Catholic church.

Have you never read the following verses on submission to religious leaders:

"Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.” (Matt 23:1-3)

Jesus said, “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

Paul and Barnabas "delivered to them the Gentiles] **for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders **who were at Jerusalem. " (Acts 15:22)

“Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.” (Heb 13:17)

"…these men … reject authority … and perish in Korah’s rebellion. (Jude 1:8-11)
The story of Korah’s rebellion is found in Numbers 16:1-33. Korah, not wanting to submit to another man, rejected the authority of Moses and Aaron. For his rebellion, God caused the earth to open up and swallow Korah and he perished.

edwinG:

I

can not understand your position on Mary.In Rev 12:1-17, it speaks of a male child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron and whose mother is also the spiritual mother of “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus,” i.e., of all Christians. Who is this child? Who is the mother of all Christians? Later, in Rev 19:11-16, the one who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron is called “The Word of God”, “the Lord of lords and King of kings”, obvious references to our Lord Jesus Christ. Since the mother of Jesus is Mary, it should be apparant that the spiritual mother of all Christians is Mary. Since the Bible says, Honor your father and your mother, we honor Mary, not as our God or as our Savior but as our spiritual mother.

edwinG:

…promoting a piece of brown material…and saying how it will benefit you. I think you also have other pieces of material…

Have you not read Acts 19:11-12: “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.”

 

[Todd_Easton]

edwinG:

I can’t see how we need any one to intercede for us with Jesus. … I just can [not] understand how you feel Mary is needed to intercede for us. To me I feel I am insulting Christ by saying He is not capable of doing His work.

Have you never read James 5:16 which says, “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.”

edwinG:

I dont understand the position of the pope.

Prefigured in Isaiah 22:15-24,
promised in Matthew 16:18-19,
discussed in Luke 12:41-47,
prayed for in Luke 22:31-32,
commissioned in John 21:15-17, and
exercised in Acts 1:15-26, Acts 2:14-41, Acts 15:6-12, 1 Peter 1:1–5:14, and 2 Peter 1:1–3:18,
it was Jesus Christ’s will and gift that there always be one wise and faithful steward over the whole Church until his return. Peter was the first of these stewards over the whole Church, now called popes, and John Paul II is our current pope.

Peter was rebuked by Paul for his hypocritical behavior, not for the faith he professed. In Luke 12:41-47, Jesus did not promise that his steward over the whole Church would never behave hypocritically but Jesus did promise, in Luke 22:31-32, that the faith proclaimed by his steward will always be true.

 

[MariaG]

Hi Edwin,

You have some legitimate questions, all pretty big. Todd did a good job of starting the explanation. Could you please pick your most pressing concern and we could go from there? (I’m guessing it has to do with the pope?) It is much easier to discuss things one at a time, wouldn’t you agree?

But one piece of Scripture I would like to leave you with is this: **Col 1:18 **He is the head of the body, the Church. Catholics believe this 100% with a deeper understanding than I ever had as an Evangelical.

God Bless,
Maria

p.s.
And don’t worry about the getting off track thing, I sometimes do the same thing. I just put that in there because, like I said, this thread can be big enough all on its very own. Just look at all of your questions that can fall under it!

 

[edwinG]

Todd Easton:

You have a lot of concerns. I will try to address some of them in two posts.

Have you never read the following verses on submission to religious leaders:

"Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.” (Matt 23:1-3)

Jesus said, “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

Paul and Barnabas "delivered to them the Gentiles] **for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders **who were at Jerusalem. " (Acts 15:22)

“Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.” (Heb 13:17)

"…these men … reject authority … and perish in Korah’s rebellion. (Jude 1:8-11)
The story of Korah’s rebellion is found in Numbers 16:1-33. Korah, not wanting to submit to another man, rejected the authority of Moses and Aaron. For his rebellion, God caused the earth to open up and swallow Korah and he perished.

In Rev 12:1-17, it speaks of a male child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron and whose mother is also the spiritual mother of “those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus,” i.e., of all Christians. Who is this child? Who is the mother of all Christians? Later, in Rev 19:11-16, the one who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron is called “The Word of God”, “the Lord of lords and King of kings”, obvious references to our Lord Jesus Christ. Since the mother of Jesus is Mary, it should be apparant that the spiritual mother of all Christians is Mary. Since the Bible says, Honor your father and your mother, we honor Mary, not as our God or as our Savior but as our spiritual mother.

Have you not read Acts 19:11-12: “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.”
HI Todd,
Thank you very much for your long and detailed response. I really appreciate the effort you have made. I have taken notes of your post and will digest them and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Some of your answers are easy for me to repy to some I , at present can’t see the significance, Ie James 5:16 to why Mary is necessary as an intercessor. If I put it into my system , hopefully understanding will come.
Christ be with you
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

MariaG:

Hi Edwin,

You have some legitimate questions, all pretty big. Todd did a good job of starting the explanation. Could you please pick your most pressing concern and we could go from there? (I’m guessing it has to do with the pope?) It is much easier to discuss things one at a time, wouldn’t you agree?

But one piece of Scripture I would like to leave you with is this: **Col 1:18 **He is the head of the body, the Church. Catholics believe this 100% with a deeper understanding than I ever had as an Evangelical.

God Bless,
Maria

p.s.
And don’t worry about the getting off track thing, I sometimes do the same thing. I just put that in there because, like I said, this thread can be big enough all on its very own. Just look at all of your questions that can fall under it!

Hi MariaG,
Thanks for coming to this post and offering your understandings. I have also noted your reference Col1:18. I will put all of this into my system and see what understanding comes out of it.
Currently, there is no doubt in my mind that Roman Catholics are Christian and loved by Jesus but these issues I have mentioned, and the fear of more cropping up, and the submission to the Roman Catholic church, not Jesus, do worry me and as these worries would affect my conscience then the Roman Catholic church is not the place for me. I think that any person who is a member of the Roman Catholic church and has offered submission to the church, but doesn’t, is not living under grace, so they would be better off in another church, rather than stay there in opposition to their oath. And Jesus said ," Do not make an oath." So in a brief summary of my current position, I need to be able to be completly at ease with every teaching of the Roman Catholic Church or be at odds with my conscience. For me there are some big hurdles, but I am not afraid of the truth, but find it exceedingly beautiful.
If you did want to start on just one issue for now, starting on the oath of submission to the Roman Catholic Church may be as good a place as any.
Christ be with you
Walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[Todd_Easton]

edwinG:

at present can’t see the significance, Ie James 5:16 to why Mary is necessary as an intercessor.

I apologize; I will try to make myself clearer.

Paul regularly asked others to pray for him: “Brethren, pray for us.” (1 Thes 5:25, also see Rom 15:30, Phil 1:19, Col 4:3)

Paul had a personal relationship with the one Mediator between God and Man, our Lord Jesus Christ but he often asked others to pray for him. Why? Because it is a good thing to do. If Paul had met Mary, “the handmaid of the Lord” (Luke 1:38), do you think he might have asked her, to pray for him too?

Consider that God is pleased to work miracles through his faithful servants and He wants us to ask others to pray for us:Acts 5:12-16 says: “Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles. …The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.”

James 5:13-16 says: “Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray… Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him … and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up… The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.”

If the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects and the saints in heaven are perfectly righteous, then the prayer of the saints in heaven, especially of Mary, has great power in its effects.

Can the dead intercede for the living? Yes. In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus tells us that even a dead rich man in torment in Hades can intercede for his living brothers.

Consider that God is pleased to work miracles even through those faithful servants who have departed this life:In 2 Kings 13:21, it says that God revived a dead man through contact with the bones of Elisha.

In Sirach 48:12-16, it says that Elisha performed marvelous deeds after his death.

Therefore, God is pleased to perform signs and wonders through his faithful servants, even those who have died, and He wants us to ask others to pray for us.

So, if you want to do what is pleasing to God, then it would be a good thing to ask other Christians, including the saints in heaven and, especially, Mary, to intercede for you.

 

[MariaG]

and the submission to the Roman Catholic church, not Jesus, do worry me and as these worries would affect my conscience then the Roman Catholic church is not the place for me. I think that any person who is a member of the Roman Catholic church and has offered submission to the church, but doesn’t, is not living under grace, so they would be better off in another church, rather than stay there in opposition to their oath. And Jesus said ," Do not make an oath."

Hi Edwin,
First off, Catholics do not submit to the authority of the Church instead of Jesus, but we submit to the authority because Jesus is the Church. (Remember Col 1:18) We believe that Christ promised that His Church would be kept free from doctrinal error. (Note: this is not a guarantee of no sin, this means that what the church is supposed to teach will not be wrong) So we can always in good conscience follow the official teachings of the Catholic Church not because of our faith in the people in the church, but because of our faith in God. Because of our very deep seeded belief that Christ is the Church, a belief firmly founded in Scripture, we are not submitting to the men who are currently running the Church, **we are submitting ourselves the Christ **whenwe submit ourselves to the teachings of the Church. Christ=Church

Second I am not really sure what oath you are talking about. I can tell you the Church’s teaching on oaths, what Christ said and what those who learned this teaching from Christ did, but I don’t think this is what you are talking about. Could you please be more specific? Or maybe someone else knows?

And let me follow this up with one other thing Edwin. I sense in you a complete openess to the truth. You seem to seeking the truth God would have you find. That being said, let me say that if anything I say contradicts the Bible, that either I don’t know what I am talking about and do not represent church teaching, you are not understanding what I said, or you have a mistaken interpretation of Scripture. The official teachings of the Catholic Church are in wonderful harmony with Sacred Scripture which was entrusted into Her care. So if what I say contradicts Scripture, it is probably because I have in some way not represented the true teachings of the Church, of Christ.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[mercygate]

Edwin, I always love your questions! You might find it VERY helpful to own a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Many of these questions are addressed there. Other questions are addressed in articles found on a menu to the left of the screen on the Catholic Answers home page.

When you read the Catechism keep in mind that 90% of what all Christians believe we hold in common – this is a great place to find pithy descriptions of the basic doctrines of the Christian faith as a whole.

As a convert myself, I can relate to the confusion about submitting to the Pope versus submitting to Christ. There is no versus. A quick study of the doctrine of the Church as the Body of Christ (cf. St. Paul) should clear that up. Catholics believe that the Church has a physical body (the Catholic Church) as well as a mystical Body, and that they are united under the servant-leadership of the Bishop of Rome. Submission to the Bishop of Rome (the Church now eschews the word “submission” but it still works for me) is not submission to his person as a man, it is simply submitting to the Body of Christ in faith that the fullness of Truth is to be found only in the Catholic Church.

To use an admittedly bad analogy, you don’t give your soul to The Catholic Church, Incorporated, you give it to the CEO: Christ. The Pope is the COO.

 

[Malachi4U]

edwinG,

Study history, both inside Sacred Scripture and outside. The truth is there if you have an open mind. Study both protestant and Catholic sources too.

There is no need to fear the Catholic Church or what is unknown about it to you. I had to cross the Tiber when I discovered Christ’s body was in fact the Catholic Church. I feared the unknown too only to find out that there is nothing but “LOVE” waiting for you in His Church.

You seem to accept Scripture but avoid the parts of the OT and NT that deal with God establishing human authority in His name for His Chrurch. Whenever you read of Moses or Aaron or Jesus, etc. do you not read how they are traced back to their roots? The ‘keys’ and Gods authority were given in the OT just as they were given to St. Peter/Kephas in the NT.

The OT was a verbal Gospel for years before it was written down just as the NT was Gospel before it was written down. Verbal Gospel ‘IS’ Tradititon. Our Sacred Scripture is just Tradition being written down.

God loved us to knell or bow down to Him in the OT and we see it in the NT. Do you fear knelling when whorshipping God?

The Jews had temples and Saboth and services and incense and etc. just as the Catholics carry on many like Traditions today. Did God change His mind about wanting His followers to stop these things? Why or why not?

If we have but one God and He never changes and His Word is forever and His moral values were the same yesterday, today and tommorrow, then can more then one Christian church have the truth? Is Gods truth in one church the same as in another? Does denomination matter? If God has but one truth and He is unchanging then denomination does matter. Only ONE Church has the truth and all others -no matter how close - must be false? Jesus promised He would be with His Church till the end of time and He has fullfilled that promise in the Catholic Church. Some/many Catholiocs may sin but His Church cannot and never has.

Don’t fear authority. You accept Gods authority? You accept the Presidents authority? Your father’s? Your mother’s? Your Govenor’s, Mayor’s, etc? God established authority on earth so that when we stray we have a human voice to tell us to correct ourselves. Remember ‘rebuff’, ‘correct’ and ‘exhort’ from Scripture? Did not He Himself tell our leaders to correct us? Did He not tell us to avoid schism and follow our leaders and remain united?

So much more to say and no more time.

 

[edwinG]

MariaG:

Hi Edwin,
First off, Catholics do not submit to the authority of the Church instead of Jesus, but we submit to the authority because Jesus is the Church. (Remember Col 1:18) We believe that Christ promised that His Church would be kept free from doctrinal error. (Note: this is not a guarantee of no sin, this means that what the church is supposed to teach will not be wrong) So we can always in good conscience follow the official teachings of the Catholic Church not because of our faith in the people in the church, but because of our faith in God. Because of our very deep seeded belief that Christ is the Church, a belief firmly founded in Scripture, we are not submitting to the men who are currently running the Church, **we are submitting ourselves the Christ **whenwe submit ourselves to the teachings of the Church. Christ=Church

Second I am not really sure what oath you are talking about. I can tell you the Church’s teaching on oaths, what Christ said and what those who learned this teaching from Christ did, but I don’t think this is what you are talking about. Could you please be more specific? Or maybe someone else knows?

And let me follow this up with one other thing Edwin. I sense in you a complete openess to the truth. You seem to seeking the truth God would have you find. That being said, let me say that if anything I say contradicts the Bible, that either I don’t know what I am talking about and do not represent church teaching, you are not understanding what I said, or you have a mistaken interpretation of Scripture. The official teachings of the Catholic Church are in wonderful harmony with Sacred Scripture which was entrusted into Her care. So if what I say contradicts Scripture, it is probably because I have in some way not represented the true teachings of the Church, of Christ.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

Hi Maria,
Yes, I accept what you say is in faith and yes we both are not infallible and no I wont make judgment solely on some mistake or misunderstanding. God in His wisdom cross references the truth for us, so one isolated teaching is to me to be regarded with the utmost care.
An apologist in answer to a question about being a Roman Catholic said you need, 1) A valid Baptism
2) Formal submission to the Authority of the Catholic Church.
So in answer to your statement , Catholics submit to the authority of the church, no it is not true, you submit to the authority of the Catholic Church. If the Catholic church will change the wording to submit to His church, then I would feel free in my conscience. I know it is only a word, but Christ is the Word. To me this is very important. Yes and Christ will, because the Church is His body, protect the church, but His body is not the Roman Catholic church.
Christ be with you,
walk in love, how beautiful He is
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

Todd Easton:

I apologize; I will try to make myself clearer.

Paul regularly asked others to pray for him: “Brethren, pray for us.” (1 Thes 5:25, also see Rom 15:30, Phil 1:19, Col 4:3)
Consider that God is pleased to work miracles through his faithful servants and He wants us to ask others to pray for us:

I agree 100%

James 5:13-16 says: “Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray… Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him … and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up… The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.”

I agree 100% and from experience.

If the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects and the saints in heaven are perfectly righteous, then the prayer of the saints in heaven, especially of Mary, has great power in its effects.

I don’t agree

Can the dead intercede for the living? Yes. In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus tells us that even a dead rich man in torment in Hades can intercede for his living brothers.
No There was a request for intercession which was denied, further more, the request was made in Mercy sake and ( James 2:13 Mercy overcomes Judgment) did not even apply. No intercession was granted.

Consider that God is pleased to work miracles even through those faithful servants who have departed this life:
In 2 Kings 13:21, it says that God revived a dead man through contact with the bones of Elisha.

This was not done as an intercession, without prior intent. I dont see it as being applicable in these circumstances.

In Sirach 48:12-16, it says that Elisha performed marvelous deeds after his death.
LOL To me not part of Scripture.

Therefore, God is pleased to perform signs and wonders through his faithful servants, even those who have died, and He wants us to ask others to pray for us.

1 Samuel 28:15 " Now Samuel said to Saul ’ Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? "
Samuel was not pleased at being roused, then predicted his death.
I cannot find the reference but I will. God detests our contact with the dead.

So, if you want to do what is pleasing to God, then it would be a good thing to ask other Christians, including the saints in heaven
and, especially, Mary, to intercede for you.

Yes , I believe it is imperative that we pray for one another but I have not seen any convincing evidence to include the saints in heaven, who are resting, waiting for Christ to come back, who is waiting for the numbers in the Kingdom of heaven to be fulfilled and for Israel to recognise Him, Jesus.
Thank you so much for your energy
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
Walk in love
edwinG

 

[Todd_Easton]

edwinG:

the saints in heaven … are resting, waiting for Christ to come back, who is waiting for the numbers in the Kingdom of heaven to be fulfilled and for Israel to recognise Him, Jesus.

Resting? Their bodies may be at rest but their spirits are very active:

In 1 Sam 28:15-19, not only does it say that the deceased prophet Samuel was aware of what is going on on earth but God inspired him to make a prophecy against King Saul.

In Sirach 48:12-16 (probably referring to the events of 2 Kings 13:21), the deceased prophet Elisha is described as having performed marvelous deeds after his death.

In 2 Maccabees 15:12-14, the deceased priest Onias and the deceased prophet Jeremiah are descibed as fervently praying for the whole Jewish community.

In Luke 9:30-31, it says that, before Jesus’ sufferings on earth, the deceased prophets Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke to him about his coming departure.

In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus said that a deceased rich man in Hades saw deceased Abraham from afar and spoke with him. Both the rich man and Abraham were aware that the man’s living brothers were still living a sinful lifestyle and the rich man interceded for his living brothers.

In Rev 4:10, it says that, before Jesus’ Second Coming, the saints in heaven (at least the 24 elders) are worshipping God and singing his praises.

In Rev 5:8, it says that, before Jesus’ Second Coming, the saints in heaven (at least the 24 elders) are presenting the prayers of the faithful on earth to God.

 

[Malachi4U]

edwinG:

Yes , I believe it is imperative that we pray for one another but I have not seen any convincing evidence to include the saints in heaven, who are resting, waiting for Christ to come back, who is waiting for the numbers in the Kingdom of heaven to be fulfilled and for Israel to recognise Him, Jesus.
…

Resting? Do you believe in ‘Soul Sleep?’ Where in the Bible does God specify ALL the attributes saints/angels have or have not? Where did you get this information? I know in the OT the Jews tought their souls rested in paridise (the theif beside Jesus went to paradise with Jsus that day, not heaven). Jesus died on the cross and went to paridise to preach to the souls ‘resting’ before He came. He preached to them to ‘save’ them (using a protestant sense of ‘saved’). Jesus ascended into heaven later.

Where did the angels come from if our souls are in a state of suspended animation in heaven (or wherever)? How did St. John see saints giving our prayers to God in heaven (see Revelations)? The Psalms have at least 2 examples of our petitions going through those in heaven (see Psalms).

Heaven is a place of life, not death or suspended animation.

In heaven we are souls and on earth we are souls trapped in a human shell. Do not confuse attributes of a human shell with the attributes God gives a soul.

The “father” of the reformation prayed to Blessed Mary and believed in the intervention of Saints. When did his followers stop this practice? Why? Who?

Seek the answers to questions I pose. The truth is sometimes hard to follow but to follow Jesus is to find the Truth. I found the truth in the writtings of the early Church and in Scripture. I opened my eyes and removed the ‘scales’. Now I can ‘see’ and ‘hear’ what I denied as a protestant.

You are searching for the truth. Never stop. Whether you stay protestant or reconcile yourself back to the Catholic Church is your choice. God loves you and therfore I love you. Just follow the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Whatever you choice, best of luck, I am sure the Holy Spirit is guiding you, just follow Him.

 

[Exporter]

edwinG,

Your post said that you are not “steeped” in any religion, I think.

Well for a pagan you surely do know alot about what Catholics believe.

I don’t believe you are a pure pagan or else you wouldn’t know or THINK you know about Mary.

Bishop J. Fulton Sheen, a 1950s TV personality, said that “Maybe a hunderd people in the USA hate the Catholic Church for What the Church really is…but there are thousands who hate the Catholic Church because they have a False understanding of what Catholics believe!”

Most Protestant Anti-Catholics do not really know what Catholics teach. They get their information from uninformed Catholic haters.

Infallibility: Jesus, in Matt16:18-19, gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of God, he also told Peter what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven…and…what you retain on earth will be retained in heaven. Jesus also gave the assurance that the Holy Spirit would teach and aid him. In short, these keys were handed down to Peter’s successors, all the way down to John Paul II. You don’t think Peter was going to hide those keys, do you, no, Jesus would not have started a Church that would stop in 50 years.

Now this is IMPORTANT. Infallibility is ONLY in matters of Faith and/or Morals. The Pope is fallible on choosing a computer, a car or his breakfast. Infallibility ONLY comes into play when all the Bishops meet with the Pope to decide an important question concerning Faith or Morals. I have more information . PM me if you want it.:tiphat: Bill

 

[RBushlow]

edwinG:
Here’s the oath you are looking for:
“Dost thou renounce Satan?” “I do renounce”.
"and all his works? “I do renounce”
“and all his pomps?” “I do renounce”.

 

[edwinG]

Todd Easton:

Resting? Their bodies may be at rest but their spirits are very active:

In 1 Sam 28:15-19, not only does it say that the deceased prophet Samuel was aware of what is going on on earth but God inspired him to make a prophecy against King Saul.

In Sirach 48:12-16 (probably referring to the events of 2 Kings 13:21), the deceased prophet Elisha is described as having performed marvelous deeds after his death.

In 2 Maccabees 15:12-14, the deceased priest Onias and the deceased prophet Jeremiah are descibed as fervently praying for the whole Jewish community.

In Luke 9:30-31, it says that, before Jesus’ sufferings on earth, the deceased prophets Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke to him about his coming departure.

In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus said that a deceased rich man in Hades saw deceased Abraham from afar and spoke with him. Both the rich man and Abraham were aware that the man’s living brothers were still living a sinful lifestyle and the rich man interceded for his living brothers.

In Rev 4:10, it says that, before Jesus’ Second Coming, the saints in heaven (at least the 24 elders) are worshipping God and singing his praises.

In Rev 5:8, it says that, before Jesus’ Second Coming, the saints in heaven (at least the 24 elders) are presenting the prayers of the faithful on earth to God.

HI Todd,
I don’t know how to use the cut and paste feature so I hope you can accept this format. I tried the other way and it was very confusing.
In I Samuel 28: 15-19 Samuel was annoyed because Saul had contacted him " Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up" Samuel then predicted Saul death. Not a good ending for waking up the dead. I agree Samuel knew what was transpiring, he is a prophet, but he definitely said he was disturbed at being brought up. I find this in contradiction to your belief of asking the saints to intercede for us. I firmly believe we should intercede for each other.
Sirach This book I do not have
Maccabees This book I do not have
Luke 9:30-36 I view this as a confirmation of Jesus’s position where Moses and Elijah witness to Jesus and God again confirms Jesus as His son. They were not making an intercession for someone on earth, Jesus is fully God.
Luke 16:19-31 This is not intercession. The rich man asked and was twice denied. He even asked in the name of Mercy ( see James 2:13 Mercy overcomes judgment ) and was still denied. And Lazarus did not even speak to the rich man.
Rev 4:10 and Rev 5:8 Do you know who the 24 elders are. I do not know but they are not called saints in heaven and they surrond the throne of God and their work is to worship Him. I can not understand how you apply these verses to the saints interceded and praying for us at our request.
Christ be with you Todd
Walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

mercygate:

Edwin, I always love your questions! You might find it VERY helpful to own a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Many of these questions are addressed there. Other questions are addressed in articles found on a menu to the left of the screen on the Catholic Answers home page.

When you read the Catechism keep in mind that 90% of what all Christians believe we hold in common – this is a great place to find pithy descriptions of the basic doctrines of the Christian faith as a whole.

As a convert myself, I can relate to the confusion about submitting to the Pope versus submitting to Christ. There is no versus. A quick study of the doctrine of the Church as the Body of Christ (cf. St. Paul) should clear that up. Catholics believe that the Church has a physical body (the Catholic Church) as well as a mystical Body, and that they are united under the servant-leadership of the Bishop of Rome. Submission to the Bishop of Rome (the Church now eschews the word “submission” but it still works for me) is not submission to his person as a man, it is simply submitting to the Body of Christ in faith that the fullness of Truth is to be found only in the Catholic Church.

To use an admittedly bad analogy, you don’t give your soul to The Catholic Church, Incorporated, you give it to the CEO: Christ. The Pope is the COO.

HI Mercygate,
Thanks for keeping on with me.
In answer to a question on what one has to do to be a Roman Catholic an apologist ( on the EWTN site, I think ) said;

1. have a valid baptism
2. a formal submission to the authority of the Catholic church.
   Now I note what you and other members of the list have said and as the church and christ are the same, lets change the words to the second condition
3. a formal submission to the authoriy of His Church.
   This would then make it very easy for me, because I would be sure I was submitting to Christ and not to men.
   Words are very important.
   Christ be with you
   Walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
   edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Malachi4U:

edwinG,

Study history, both inside Sacred Scripture and outside. The truth is there if you have an open mind. Study both protestant and Catholic sources too.

There is no need to fear the Catholic Church or what is unknown about it to you. I had to cross the Tiber when I discovered Christ’s body was in fact the Catholic Church. I feared the unknown too only to find out that there is nothing but “LOVE” waiting for you in His Church.

You seem to accept Scripture but avoid the parts of the OT and NT that deal with God establishing human authority in His name for His Chrurch. Whenever you read of Moses or Aaron or Jesus, etc. do you not read how they are traced back to their roots? The ‘keys’ and Gods authority were given in the OT just as they were given to St. Peter/Kephas in the NT.

The OT was a verbal Gospel for years before it was written down just as the NT was Gospel before it was written down. Verbal Gospel ‘IS’ Tradititon. Our Sacred Scripture is just Tradition being written down.

God loved us to knell or bow down to Him in the OT and we see it in the NT. Do you fear knelling when whorshipping God?

The Jews had temples and Saboth and services and incense and etc. just as the Catholics carry on many like Traditions today. Did God change His mind about wanting His followers to stop these things? Why or why not?

If we have but one God and He never changes and His Word is forever and His moral values were the same yesterday, today and tommorrow, then can more then one Christian church have the truth? Is Gods truth in one church the same as in another? Does denomination matter? If God has but one truth and He is unchanging then denomination does matter. Only ONE Church has the truth and all others -no matter how close - must be false? Jesus promised He would be with His Church till the end of time and He has fullfilled that promise in the Catholic Church. Some/many Catholiocs may sin but His Church cannot and never has.

Don’t fear authority. You accept Gods authority? You accept the Presidents authority? Your father’s? Your mother’s? Your Govenor’s, Mayor’s, etc? God established authority on earth so that when we stray we have a human voice to tell us to correct ourselves. Remember ‘rebuff’, ‘correct’ and ‘exhort’ from Scripture? Did not He Himself tell our leaders to correct us? Did He not tell us to avoid schism and follow our leaders and remain united?

So much more to say and no more time.

Hi,
Yes so much to say. I will go down to the bottom and reply as I do not know how to cut and paste properly. If I leave your post unedited it will be to long.
Christ be with you
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edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Hi Malachi4u,

I am trying to answer in the same sequence as your posting.

Study history, I am 58 and I dont have time. The bible takes up nearly all of my study time.

I fear submission to the catholic church. I dont fear submission to His church. To become a catholic there are two steps I believe. 1 a valid baptism. 2 submission to the authority of the catholic church. Now if the catholic church is the same as Christ’s church, change the words and I would agree. ie 2 submission to the authority of Christ’s church.

I accept human authority ( ask my priest)

I kneel, I prostrate myself before my Lord and God in worship daily.My prayer for increased love and reverence is high on my prayer list.

God is always the same.

When you say that God and His truth are only in one church and that is the Roman Catholic church , I put this to you. There are two parts to this statement. God in Christ is in only one church. That church is the Roman Catholic church.
Ask me anything to satisfy yourself of my position in Christ.I ask this of you, for your benefit. Satisfy yourself , test me to see if I am a hypocrit, or if I follow some pagan belief. Ask to satisfy yourself in case you feel I may be unbalanced. I give you permission to ask me anything you like. You will have to judge of course if my answers are true. I say in Christ’s holy name that I will answer in all truth or tell you I wont answer a particular question. If you satisfy your self I am a Christian and that Jesus is not only aware of me but approves of my servitude then you will have to decide if 1) you are in the wrong church or 2) Christ approves of more than one church.( Is there an alternative?)

I further give you permission to be as blunt as is necessary, trusting that your search for truth is genuine. I wont be outraged or upset by any question or the tone of a question, just let it roll. Roll up your sleeves Malachi4u. How beautiful is the truth.
Christ be with you
Walk in love
edwinG