Catholic Tradition /MariaG

[Ter]

Hi Edwin, thanks for your responses. It’ll probably take a while to get back to you in detail. I’ll to think & pray about it.

About the loyalty to this church or that church. I don’t think it’s that so much as that for each of us our life ‘with Christ’ in the particular church is so wonderful & ‘right’ that we want to give it to everyone. It’s kind of like when I was a kid & went Chistmas shopping we used to buy people gifts that we thought were ‘cool’. Because we liked it they would like it.

I feel that as a Catholic I have so much richness, particularly in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I believe that when I am in a church Christ is physically present in the consecrated Host in the tabernacle. Often I just sit there thinking that phrase “Too wonderful for me this knowledge, too high beyond my reach”. So I like to talk about it. Plus the more I try to explain my faith the more I come to understand it & why I believe what I do.

Finally, it’s great to have these kind of discussions with someone who actually believes in God & Christ. Most of my brothers don’t & I get the whole 'you’re a victim of your upbringing, you’ll outgrow it like we did", which is really annoying.

 

[edwinG]

Todd Easton:

Rev 4:4 says, “Round the throne were twenty-four thrones, and seated on the thrones were twenty-four elders, clad in white garments, with golden crowns upon their heads.”

Who are the elders in the Bible? Men. The Bible, and the New Testament in particular, mentions two groups of elders, Jewish and Christian, but in either case they refer to human beings. Since the Jewish elders condemned Jesus, it is likely that the elders in heaven in Rev 4:4f are Christian elders, former leaders of the early Christian communities now deceased.

In 1 Peter 5:1, the Apostle Peter refers to himself as an elder. The author of 1 John and 2 John also refers to himself as an elder.

In Matt 19:28, Jesus told the Apostles that they would sit on 12 thones.

In Rev 2:10, Jesus told Christians, “Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

In Rev 3:5, Jesus told Christians, “He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.”

Taking the above Scripture passages into consideration, it seems reasonable to assume that the 24 elders in heaven are deceased Christian elders who were faithful to the end, and some of them are probably deceased Apostles. (Acts 12:2 mentions the early martyrdom of the Apostle James, the brother of John.)

Rev 5:8 says of these deceased Christian elders, “…the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Since, elsewhere in the New Testament, Christians on earth are called “the saints” (2 Cor 1:1, Col 1:2, Eph 1:1, Phil 1:1), it is reasonable to assume that the saints refered to in Rev 5:8 are also Christians on earth.

So there you have it, deceased Christians elders (the saints in heaven) offer to God the prayers of the Christians on earth.

From the Scriptures I cited in this and previous posts, I think I have made a case for the following:

1. Though their bodies may be at rest, the spirits of deceased Christians in heaven are conscious, active, aware of what is happening on earth, praying and interceding for the living, offering up to God the prayers of Christians on earth, and through their intercession God performs great deeds.
2. It is a good thing to ask others to pray for us. And, since the prayer of a righteous man is great in its effect and since Christians in heaven are perfectly righteous, it too is a good and praiseworthy thing to ask them to pray for us. Since Mary is the most exalted of Christians in heaven (see Luke 1:28-55, John 2:1-11 and Rev 12:1-17), her prayers are very great in their effect.

Is it necessary to ask the Christians in heaven to pray for you? Yes, if you interested in receiving all the good gifts God wants you to have because some things can only come from the prayer of a righteous man.

Dear Todd ,
Thank you so much for your meaty post. I like it and will need to put it into the system and see what happens to it. Once again I thank you for your efforts.
Christ be with youhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Ter:

Hi Edwin, thanks for your responses. It’ll probably take a while to get back to you in detail. I’ll to think & pray about it.

About the loyalty to this church or that church. I don’t think it’s that so much as that for each of us our life ‘with Christ’ in the particular church is so wonderful & ‘right’ that we want to give it to everyone. It’s kind of like when I was a kid & went Chistmas shopping we used to buy people gifts that we thought were ‘cool’. Because we liked it they would like it.

I feel that as a Catholic I have so much richness, particularly in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I believe that when I am in a church Christ is physically present in the consecrated Host in the tabernacle. Often I just sit there thinking that phrase “Too wonderful for me this knowledge, too high beyond my reach”. So I like to talk about it. Plus the more I try to explain my faith the more I come to understand it & why I believe what I do.

Finally, it’s great to have these kind of discussions with someone who actually believes in God & Christ. Most of my brothers don’t & I get the whole 'you’re a victim of your upbringing, you’ll outgrow it like we did", which is really annoying.

HI Ter,
Thank you for your post. Your last paragraph, Finally etc, is I believe, the role of the church on earth. As Jesus said, we will get enough hate from the world, so love one another be supportive, exhort one another in all good things, keep to the original truth. I send my love to you, my brother. Dont listen to anyone who tries to take you away from God. And earthly wisdom can be very compelling and science is surely man’s greatest toy but only Christ is the truth. When you practise walking in the Spirit, you see the beautiful way God unfolds his plans, like you are watching a stage play unfold before your eyes and you know God’s hand is controling the scene unraveling before your very eyes. In joy with tears in your eyes you bow down to Him for his grace in your life. He is real. I can not find the scripture passage, maybe someone reading this will be able to supply it, but God throws down the gauntlet and asks us to test Him. So test Him in a holy and reverent way. If your heart is sincere, and not like Jesus’s friends from Nazareth who wanted to see magician’s tricks, He will accept you in good faith. One simple thing I did, and I am not suggesting for one moment you do this because I did it, but do something in sincerity in your own life. I live near Bangkok in Thailand and catch local buses etc. Now they are pretty crowded and I would always stand up for children older men and ladies, which meant I was usually standing up. If more than one bus was going my way, I also took the first one available, not picking or choosing. Now God did not want me standing after a while. and seeing His wisdom moving the people around on the bus like chess pieces to give me a seat was a magnificient work of art. I ask and plead with God in Christ to come into every aspect of my life. I used to always enter by the back door of the bus. One day, the first bus came and pulled up short of me so I had to walk to it and then in the front door. The very first seat in the bus was empty and so I went and sat there. When you sit in the front seat you can’t see who is standing unless you turn around and deliberately look. It is unusual for me to sit in the front though.I wait for Jesus to take me there if He wants me in the front. Christ has a 100 ways at least of giving me a seat on a crowded bus so I feel clear in my conscience. I give my waking life to trying to please Him. At present food is my biggest ( that I am aware of) obstacle. Food is still in some ways my master, but I know ( and I dislike being patient on this issue) that at the right time by the power of the Holy Spirit I will also conquer this evil master.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[itsjustdave1988]

edwinG:

Yes I submit to my priest, Pastor Steve.

An interesting response.

However if he asked me to do something which I regarded as sinful I would have to discuss this with him. If it still bothered my conscience, ( lets say I have a tender conscience) well, as Paul remarks, let us be aware of each other and not be a stumbling block to each others faith.)

Good Catholic teaching in accord with the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas. In practice, however, I find that most Protestants (and most Catholics) don’t follow this standard. Instead, they submit to their priest not in all things lawful, but only in things agreeable.

These most basic reasons are 1) your submission to the authority of men. IT is submission to men unless you change the word from catholic church to His church.

Of course I do. Heb 13:17 demands it. You just admitted that you do to. If I were not to do this, I would be in violation of Sacred Scripture.

1. you take a vow which is contrary to Christ’s command and if you sin you break your vow.

You mean like the vows that many holy men in Scripture take? Certainly. You mean like the vow that the angel of the Lord in Revelation takes? Yes. I take such a vow. Seems I understand Sacred Scripture differently than you do. I understand that I can vow to God on important matters, as in accord with the NT.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

EdwinG,

Book of Revelation, ch10, v 5-6:

Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever

I swear by Him who lives forever and ever, just as the angels in heaven do. If in your understanding of Scripture, this is a sin, then can you explain what this heavenly angel is doing?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

EdwinG,

Furthermore …

Abraham made his servant swear an oath that he would not get a wife for his master’s son Isaac from amongst the pagan Canaanites. “Put your hand under my thigh” he said to his servant (Gen. 24:2). Or Abram again told the king of Sodom that he had taken an oath and raised his hand to the Lord, God Most High, that he would accept nothing from the king (Gen. 14:22). Likewise, Laban said to Jacob, “May the God of Abraham and the God of Nahor, the God of their father, judge between us” (Gen.32:53). Boaz said to Ruth that if another senior cousin does not marry her he will: “as surely as the Lord lives I will do it” (Ruth 3:13). Elijah said: " ‘As the Lord Almighty lives, whom I serve, I will surely present myself to Ahab today’" (I Kings 18:15). Was this an unbiblical practice?

When Paul calls God as his witness in stating the truth (Ro 1:9; Ph 1:8; Gl 1:20; 2 Co 1:23; 1 Th 2:5), is he then in violation of sacred scripture?

Jeremiah 4:2 “And you will swear, ‘As the LORD lives,’ In truth, in justice and in righteousness; Then the nations will bless themselves in Him, And in Him they will glory.”

Heb 6:16 - “Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument.”

 

[itsjustdave1988]

EdwinG,

If you are referring to Mat.5:33-37, consider the following …

The problem addressed here is that of language and keeping your intent. Oath formulas contained subterfuges for the divine name, which the devout tried to avoid pronouncing. In otherwords, saying an oath was difficult for the devout. Jesus was not opposed to saying oaths. He was trying to help the devout in how to say an oath simply.

Look at v. 37: “yes, yes, no, no.” This gives a positive command about the character of speech to balance the negative command in v 34. The Mishnaic tractates Sebu’ot, Nedarim, and Nazir, all deal with vows and oaths. Jesus is opposing academic trivilization of the above oath-making difficulties, giving the alternative of simplicity and directness of speech (not opposing oaths, but telling us to be direct and not worry about the subterfuge problems of oath making).

Oath formulas are OK just as long as they are truthful and simple. For example, according to ancient Judaic texts, yes and no become oaths when repeated as Jesus does in v. 37. It is not oaths He’s opposed to as He Himself says an oath formula in vs. 37. On the contrary, He is opposed to the complex subterfuges used by ancient Judaism. The conduct at the time was to make a complex oath and then to get out of the oath by citing a loophole in the complexity of the oath. It’s analogous to a lawyer drawing up a complex legal statement, then later using the complexity of that statement as a means of getting out of the intent of the statement.

Jesus is not opposed to oaths. He’s teaching us that we should not take the Lord’s name in vain and that we should not bear false witness. Jesus is saying, “Keep it simple and mean what you say.” To conclude that Jesus is opposed to swearing oaths is unconvincing, given that an angel does so in the Book of Revelations without rebuke, as well as the many versus where Paul calls God as his witness in testifying to the truth. Your interpretation must deal with the appearant contradiction.

Paul’s oath formulas ("… as God as my witness") are the inspired word of God. If Paul uses oath formulas than surely we are safe to say “… so help me God” if we mean it and are not creating an oath so complex that I can later use the complex subterfuge with the intention of wiggling out of it.

 

[edwinG]

Ter:

Hi Edwin, I still maintain that a vow/promise is not forbidden swearing by ‘x’ is forbidden (see my earlier post).

Matthew 5.34 “But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven , for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’.”

I’m very aware of this difference 'cos I always thought it was funny that the president of the USA says “I swear by Almighty God…”, which this passage forbids.

Secondly the wording of promise taken on entry to the Catholic Church is:
“Do you reject Satan & all his works & all his empty promises - I do (some people use renounce)
Do you believe in God, the Father Almighty creator of heaven and earth - I do
Do you believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died and was buried, rose from the dead and is now seated on the right hand of the Father - I do
Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting - I do”

Now I assume that you were married in your church i.e. your priest said “Do you take this woman etc.etc.” and you said “I do”. Now if the vow taken on entering the Catholic Church is forbidden by Christ than marriage vows are also forbidden by Christ, which seems unlikely, as are employment contracts, promises to your children etc.

Hi Ter,
yes , what you say agrees with me. Thank you for your help.
christ be with you,
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Hi,

I would like to thank all the members who participated and helped me in my understanding especially on the taking of vows. You have convinced me of your position. Once again thank you.

Christ be with you

walk in love

edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

Hi,
I have confused myself in my posts, and your answers have helped me to better understand my position. It is the submission to men where I stated I had a problem. In this I was wrong. I constantly submit to men and your posts have been the cause of this realisation. When I walk in love for instance, which I try to do always, I am constantly submitting even to strangers, men and women, boys and girls. What I don’t want to do, and with God’s grace won’t do, is deny Christ. I need to live daily, following the Spirit, not considering some rules. I trust in Him.( Is this a good example. When God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, did Ahraham say No, I cant do that it is against my religion and I signed a submission to them, or against my conscience: no, without question he obeyed.) I need the freedom to obey also. I realise also in saying this about my conscience that it is the Holy Spirit who convicts and He wouldn’t if the request came from Jesus.
How I should have phrased my objection is my refusal to submit to the catholic church. It doesnt agree with my conscience. I can’t discuss this matter with the church, I can with people, but not the church per se. And the catholic church does not have the flexibility to accept people like myself. I dont have any knowledge of different denominational practices, but if a church asked for my submission, I could not do this because I may find myself between a hard place and God ( please forgive the pun)
Am I making my self clear or is this like mud.
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[mercygate]

edwinG:

When I walk in love for instance, which I try to do always, I am constantly submitting even to strangers, men and women, boys and girls. What I don’t want to do, and with God’s grace won’t do, is deny Christ. . . . I need the freedom to obey also. I realise also in saying this about my conscience that it is the Holy Spirit who convicts and He wouldn’t if the request came from Jesus. . . .
How I should have phrased my objection is my refusal to submit to the catholic church. It doesnt agree with my conscience. Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

Edwin, what a wonderful summation (as usual)!

None of your reluctance about “submission” in the context of the Catholic Church would remain if your conscience, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, were to convict you of the factual, historical, spiritual, and covenant unity between Christ and this Church, would it?

 

[MariaG]

Edwin,

It has been and I’m sure it will continue to be a joy to read your posts. Christ’s love shines so clearly from you. You must be a great blessing to those around you.

I have every confidence that the Holy Spirit will continue to lead and guide you. I look forward to the next new thread that you start.

Your sister in Christ,

Maria

 

[MarkInOregon]

edwinG,

Just a few points. I don’t believe we make a formal submission to the authority of the Catholic Church. We don’t get membership cards and sign a loyalty oath–I think that used to be the communist party. I don’t know where this idea comes from and why we don’t combat it better.

First we (or at least those of us who raised Catholic and those converts who were not previously baptized) become Catholic upon our baptism w/water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Second I don’t think promise or vow or oath is the correct terminology for what is usually a part of the sacrament of baptism in the Catholic Church–we don’t vow or promise anything, but rather we 1.) reject satan and all his works and promises and we 2.) make a profession of faith by affirming the major tenants of what we believe:
In God the Father Almighty Creator of heaven & earth
In Jesus Christ His only Son, our Lord who
–was born of the Virgin Mary
–was crucified, died and was burried
–who rose from the dead
–who ascended into heaven
–and is seated at the right hand of the Father
In the Holy Spirit
In the Holy Catholic Church
In the communion of saints
In the forgivness of sins
In the resurrection of the body
In life everlasting

This profession of faith in not a formal submission to the authority of the Catholic Church but an affirmation of our belief that it is the one true Church established and protected by Christ.

Now, if I believe that (and I do) why wouldn’t I follow ( or it is more accurate to say attempt to follow, since I am a sinful man) the teachings of his Church?

The more I study the more I am amazed to see how consistent the teachings of the Church are and how harmonious they are with the Bible–when scripture is examined in its totality and when we don’t allow one verse or passage taken out of context–and not examined in the light of other scripture passages–to influence our thoughts.

Anyway I don’t have access to the actual words of the sacrament of baptism here with me so I may not have gotten them right–but the idea is right. Its a profession of faith not a loyalty or submission oath.

Keep of the study and may the Holy Spirit guide your study and journey in faith.

Mark

 

[itsjustdave1988]

From Webster’s…

*“sacramentum, *from Latin, oath of allegiance”

 

[mercygate]

edwinG:

HI Mercygate,
Thanks for keeping on with me.
In answer to a question on what one has to do to be a Roman Catholic an apologist ( on the EWTN site, I think ) said;

1. have a valid baptism
2. a formal submission to the authority of the Catholic church.
   Now I note what you and other members of the list have said and as the church and christ are the same, lets change the words to the second condition
3. a formal submission to the authoriy of His Church.
   This would then make it very easy for me, because I would be sure I was submitting to Christ and not to men.
   Words are very important.
   Christ be with you
   Walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
   edwinG

Edwin,

As a baptized Christian, when I entered the Church my “submission statement” – provided by the Church – was simply, “I believe and profess all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches.” (Or words to that effect.)

 

[edwinG]

MarkInOregon:

edwinG,

Just a few points. I don’t believe we make a formal submission to the authority of the Catholic Church. We don’t get membership cards and sign a loyalty oath–I think that used to be the communist party. I don’t know where this idea comes from and why we don’t combat it better.

First we (or at least those of us who raised Catholic and those converts who were not previously baptized) become Catholic upon our baptism w/water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Second I don’t think promise or vow or oath is the correct terminology for what is usually a part of the sacrament of baptism in the Catholic Church–we don’t vow or promise anything, but rather we 1.) reject satan and all his works and promises and we 2.) make a profession of faith by affirming the major tenants of what we believe:
In God the Father Almighty Creator of heaven & earth
In Jesus Christ His only Son, our Lord who
–was born of the Virgin Mary
–was crucified, died and was burried
–who rose from the dead
–who ascended into heaven
–and is seated at the right hand of the Father
In the Holy Spirit
In the Holy Catholic Church
In the communion of saints
In the forgivness of sins
In the resurrection of the body
In life everlasting

This profession of faith in not a formal submission to the authority of the Catholic Church but an affirmation of our belief that it is the one true Church established and protected by Christ.

Now, if I believe that (and I do) why wouldn’t I follow ( or it is more accurate to say attempt to follow, since I am a sinful man) the teachings of his Church?

The more I study the more I am amazed to see how consistent the teachings of the Church are and how harmonious they are with the Bible–when scripture is examined in its totality and when we don’t allow one verse or passage taken out of context–and not examined in the light of other scripture passages–to influence our thoughts.

Anyway I don’t have access to the actual words of the sacrament of baptism here with me so I may not have gotten them right–but the idea is right. Its a profession of faith not a loyalty or submission oath.

Keep of the study and may the Holy Spirit guide your study and journey in faith.

Mark

Hi Mark,
Thank you for your post. I will certainly follow your words, keeping to my study and searching, always mindful that I am without wisdom ( proved so many times) and hoping to be kept safe by following the Holy Spirit in whom is all wisdom.
Christ be with you,
walk in love http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

itsjustdave1988:

From Webster’s…

*“sacramentum, *from Latin, oath of allegiance”

Hi Dave,
What a lovely silken thread of the web of truth.
Christ be with you,
walk in love
edwinGhttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[edwinG]

mercygate:

Edwin, what a wonderful summation (as usual)!

None of your reluctance about “submission” in the context of the Catholic Church would remain if your conscience, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, were to convict you of the factual, historical, spiritual, and covenant unity between Christ and this Church, would it?

Hi Mercygate,
Yes what you say is true.
Now the fact is that the nearest, and quite near, church to me is a catholic church.
Briefly my history is late in life I changed direction, went back to school and studied 3 years full time and apprentised my self for 9 months to become an acupuncturist. In my desire to be competent, because acupuncture is the medical aspect of Dao, which believes you can’t get into heaven unless your name is in the Book of Life) I found a group of Taiwanese who practised Dao. They told me I could study any scriptural work. I chose the bible, then they told me things about Jesus I did not know, but things which impressed me.I really took to the bible. I had no intention of going to Thailand and in fact told my "girlfriend’ ( now my wife) that if she wasn’t in Australia within a couple of months we should downgrade the relationship to just friendship. Her arrival in Australia had been postponed a few times. I had just started up a practise and was beginning a new chapter in my life. In one hour, my plans were in disarray and I, after consulting with Tui, made plans to go to Thailand. It was a family dispute and I didnt want a divided family. In effect, I had been scattered. In Thailand I studied the bible for about one year, but I became lonely for Christian companionship. I tried three times to establish a working relationship ( as an English teacher) with the Catholic church but it was like dancing out of tune. They always found me unacceptable, I think because of my Australian accent, and their own lack of confidence in speaking English. I might add that the Holy Spirit is always with me and the schools I have taught at have always been satisfied with and enjoyed my term with them. Then a Canadian teacher said he attended a church near the main office from which I was employed. I went with him. Because it had Baptist signs around I thought it was a Baptist Church but after some considerable time I discovered that the Baptist signs referred to the Baptist English teaching programme which this church followed. The church is Pentacostal.
I believe this is where Jesus wants me. Now I also believe that Jesus doesn’t want everyone at the same place. I dont have a complete overall picture of the workings of God and His plan, but as I search and participate, do , worship and submit, nuggets of gold ( the truth) are open to me. Now I dont claim ownership over these truths nor do I think I am the only person who has them, but to each is revealed that which is necessary for his path in servitude to God’s loving plan of helping His people here on earth. Mercygate, I could go on and on. I have to stop.
If you would like to hear of God working in my life, I would be quite willing to post as many stories as you like. The presence of the Holy Spirit guiding me is so so so unmistakeable that all would have to say, edwin you are blessed. I still walk down the wrong road, but with total confidence, each false step is blocked after the desired teaching. I am on an exciting journey, better than Christopher Columbus ever experienced.
I am where He wants me to be
Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

 

[mercygate]

edwinG:

The presence of the Holy Spirit guiding me is so so so unmistakeable that all would have to say, edwin you are blessed. Christ be with you
walk in lovehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
edwinG

Edwin, anyone who reads what you write, anyone who has followed your story and your quest on these forums would say a loud