Catholic Traditon vs Science - are we looking deep enough

[jcrichton]

The Holy Spirit has neither a male member that has been seen, nor a Y chromosome that we know of.

Hi, drpmjhess!

…so you agree with the previous author in the belief that the Bible is inconsequential in all things dealing with Yahweh God?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[mulligan59]

I don’t know whether you’ve observed the sky at night, but is the entire sky that appears to revolve around the earth; every star, galaxy, nebula, etc. Besides, heliocentrism was proven in the 19th century with the observation of stellar parallax. I’m still pinching myself to believe that we’re having this conversation in 2008!

I don’t generally look at the sky. But I’ll concede you may be right about most of the stars, or I guess the Chinese wouldn’t be able to see them (the stars) at all. However I know that parallax can be described to work either way (geo or helio model). So again, parallax is NOT a proof, of this I am certain. I’ve seen the models. Why does water defy the observed behaviour of every other substance and expand when both heated and cooled? God can make it work any way he chooses. What is too fast? These scientific models and theories were all essentially proposed by enemies of the Church or men of great pride. Much of what is assumed to be scientifically derived “knowledge”, such as blackholes, are just theoretical constructs invented to prop up some former theory in danger of collapsing under new evidence.
Black holes (my understanding) explain the missing matter required to salvage the “big bang”.

 

[drpmjhess]

…so you agree with the previous author in the belief that the Bible is inconsequential in all things dealing with Yahweh God?

What???

 

[The_Barbarian]

Just as a mention, the first person to realize that the Earth orbited the sun was Aristarchus of Samos, who figured this out by observing the motions of the Sun and the Moon.

He also worked out a way of measuring their relative sizes and distances (he got it wrong, because he was not able to make sufficiently accurate observations. He also defended the heliocentric model against claims that it should show parallax with stars, by saying that this would not be a problem if the stars were extremely distant. He got that right, too.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Why does water defy the observed behaviour of every other substance and expand when both heated and cooled?

A number of other substances composed of polar molecules expand when frozen. And a few elements, like germanium do also. However, water contracts when cooled. It continues to contract down to about 4 degrees C., after which it transitions to a solid. Because of the polar nature of the molecule, it then forms hexagonal arrays with space inside, effectively expanding it.

 

[jcrichton]

What???

Here’s your previous statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by drpmjhess
The Holy Spirit has neither a male member that has been seen, nor a Y chromosome that we know of.

The Holy Scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Yahweh God, the Father.

Yahweh God is attested to have One Begotten Son.

The Only Begotten Son attests that He and the Father are One and that He is in the Father and that the Father is in Him.

The Holy Scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ Jesus, the Son.

You say no way, the Holy Spirit has not a male member nor a Y chromosome, hence not male!

Science and human wisdom have schooled you to believe as the previous poster that the Holy Spirit can be whatever humans prescribe; hence my statement: anyone that comes to such conclusion is refuting Scripture: to refute Scripture is to make Scripture null and void.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[drpmjhess]

Science and human wisdom have schooled you to believe as the previous poster that the Holy Spirit can be whatever humans prescribe; hence my statement: anyone that comes to such conclusion is refuting Scripture: to refute Scripture is to make Scripture null and void.

How do you define “male” and “female”?

 

[drpmjhess]

Yahweh God is attested to have One Begotten Son.

The Only Begotten Son attests that He and the Father are One and that He is in the Father and that the Father is in Him.

The Holy Scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ Jesus, the Son.]

If the Trinity are a bunch of guys, and if the Spirit proceeds from the love of two guys…?

 

[mulligan59]

A number of other substances composed of polar molecules expand when frozen. And a few elements, like germanium do also. However, water contracts when cooled. It continues to contract down to about 4 degrees C., after which it transitions to a solid. Because of the polar nature of the molecule, it then forms hexagonal arrays with space inside, effectively expanding it.

Your man is also wrong about the Earth orbiting the Sun. The water question was of course rhetorical, as water’s expanding just prior to freezing (OK unlike what extraordinarily tiny percentage of known things), is strange. You can describe what is observed and call it a characteristic of certain molecules, but we don’t understand it. So how fast is too fast? It is a pure fact that you can model the rotations anyway you want and make it work. We choose to see it as opposed to the Bible. We don’t have to.

 

[drpmjhess]

Your man is also wrong about the Earth orbiting the Sun. The water question was of course rhetorical, as water’s expanding just prior to freezing (OK unlike what extraordinarily tiny percentage of known things), is strange. You can describe what is observed and call it a characteristic of certain molecules, but we don’t understand it. So how fast is too fast? It is a pure fact that you can model the rotations anyway you want and make it work. We choose to see it as opposed to the Bible. We don’t have to.

Mulligan, what drives your campaign to oppose the entire scientific world in reverting to a geocentric model of the cosmos? What is in it for you? What intellectual or spiritual satisfaction do you derive from it?

 

[mulligan59]

Mulligan, what drives your campaign to oppose the entire scientific world in reverting to a geocentric model of the cosmos? What is in it for you? What intellectual or spiritual satisfaction do you derive from it?

Here’s the deal for me. You don’t have to beleive that the sun revolves around the earth to be a Catholic. I don’t think there has ever been a magisterial pronouncement in support of GeoCentrism. But I was stunned, knock me over with a feather shocked to discover a few years ago that the Heliocentri modal cannot be proven. You can make a case that it is more “elegant”, more “likely” based on our understandings of what can be observed, but it is not proveable. I am not a scientist but I work with many very good ones. Even the ahtiest, liberal, tree huggers among them admit that it is not proven, it is just a “better model”. Yet without the Christian World’s caving on this point, it never could have been sold Darwin, and without Darwin there is no Marx, no Freud, no Margaret Sanger, no Hitler, and a host of other social pathologies. Because so many beleive so many lies (that are obviously lies) otherwise the Democrats could never win an election, I’m inclined to beleive that this, the first domino if you will, is also a lie. I want the truth. The truth is actually liberating.

 

[drpmjhess]

Here’s the deal for me. … Yet without the Christian World’s caving on this point, it never could have been sold Darwin, and without Darwin there is no Marx, no Freud, no Margaret Sanger, no Hitler, and a host of other social pathologies. Because so many beleive so many lies (that are obviously lies) otherwise the Democrats could never win an election, I’m inclined to beleive that this, the first domino if you will, is also a lie. I want the truth. The truth is actually liberating.

Thanks, Mulligan59 – this explains a lot for me!
Petrus

 

[mulligan59]

Thanks, Mulligan59 – this explains a lot for me!
Petrus

But does that mean you see the dots connecting along the way, or that you can finally say “the guy is just a nut”? Either way, enjoyed it.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Here’s the deal for me. You don’t have to beleive that the sun revolves around the earth to be a Catholic. I don’t think there has ever been a magisterial pronouncement in support of GeoCentrism. But I was stunned, knock me over with a feather shocked to discover a few years ago that the Heliocentri modal cannot be proven. You can make a case that it is more “elegant”, more “likely” based on our understandings of what can be observed, but it is not proveable. I am not a scientist but I work with many very good ones. Even the ahtiest, liberal, tree huggers among them admit that it is not proven, it is just a “better model”. Yet without the Christian World’s caving on this point, it never could have been sold Darwin, and without Darwin there is no Marx, no Freud, no Margaret Sanger, no Hitler, and a host of other social pathologies. Because so many beleive so many lies (that are obviously lies) otherwise the Democrats could never win an election, I’m inclined to beleive that this, the first domino if you will, is also a lie. I want the truth. The truth is actually liberating.

I still fail to see the point of taking a position in opposition to objective reality. You do nothing to improve the status of the Church by doing so, and arguably you help those who would suggest the Church is irrelevant. I have always thought that Catholics were a bit more intellectual than other faiths, but I’ve since learned that a small segment is in the camp along with the bible thumpers of the south. And of course, that diminishes the Church in the eyes of the world. People associate Catholics of this ilk with the Church and makes us all look like backward flat earthers. I fail as I said to see the point. This kind of pretense of the truth is a psychological issue doubtless but I sure wish its adherents would stay in the closet with their backward beliefs that are required apparently to feel safe and secure.

 

[drpmjhess]

I still fail to see the point of taking a position in opposition to objective reality. You do nothing to improve the status of the Church by doing so, and arguably you help those who would suggest the Church is irrelevant. I have always thought that Catholics were a bit more intellectual than other faiths, but I’ve since learned that a small segment is in the camp along with the bible thumpers of the south. And of course, that diminishes the Church in the eyes of the world. People associate Catholics of this ilk with the Church and makes us all look like backward flat earthers. I fail as I said to see the point. This kind of pretense of the truth is a psychological issue doubtless but I sure wish its adherents would stay in the closet with their backward beliefs that are required apparently to feel safe and secure.

Great post, SpiritMeadow – you suffer fools less patiently than do I.

 

[Deacon_Joseph]

The soul is not a piece of God. That would, technically speaking, be pantheism, contrary to Catholic doctrine, as well as making no sense.

I was not referring to pantheism in my statement. I would need a whole page to explain and I don’t have the time. Read Saint Thomas Aquinas’ Theologica. Or speak with a Jesuit Priest well versed on the subject. As far as cloning goes, the Catholic Church is opposed to cloning of humans beings. If you take some courses on Natural Theology or study the works of Saint Thomas you will see that will and intellect are signs of the spirit. And this puts us above the animals. Sorry if I was not clear in my statements before.

 

[drpmjhess]

But does that mean you see the dots connecting along the way, or that you can finally say “the guy is just a nut”? Either way, enjoyed it.

We’ll agree to disagree. If my sons want to go into astronomy they know that the can accept modern cosmology and remain Catholic as well.

Petrus

 

[drpmjhess]

I was not referring to pantheism in my statement. I would need a whole page to explain and I don’t have the time. Read Saint Thomas Aquinas’ Theologica. Or speak with a Jesuit Priest well versed on the subject. As far as cloning goes, the Catholic Church is opposed to cloning of humans beings. If you take some courses on Natural Theology or study the works of Saint Thomas you will see that will and intellect are signs of the spirit. And this puts us above the animals. Sorry if I was not clear in my statements before.

I teach theology (including natural theology), but I hadn’t run across the concept before that we have pieces of God embedded in us. Thanks for clarifying it!

 

[jcrichton]

How do you define “male” and “female”?

Just as the Bible does: Yahweh God is the Father (Male personification), Yeshua is the Son (Male personification), the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (Male) and the Son (Male) so His personification cannot be but Male.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

If the Trinity are a bunch of guys, and if the Spirit proceeds from the love of two guys…?

You are either a consummate scientist or a staunch agnostic; either way I cannot pass judgment on you–I can only tell you, as the archangel Mitchael, “The Lord rebuke you.”

Maran atha!

Angel