Catholic Traditon vs Science - are we looking deep enough

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drpmjhess said:
Bill, I find these topics interesting, but I’d better try to get my regular work done as well. We’re in a busy patch, and I start teaching a new graduate seminar next week, for which my preparation is incomplete.

Peter
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Thank you…discretion and valour…I’ll get to bed at a decent hour then and feel better tomorrow. You as well I hope.
 
drpmjhess said:
It sure is. That’s a chance I’m willing to take.
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I would not be so brave…or is it bold…or perhaps fool hardy. Wouldn’t want to have to defend that at the foot of the Throne. But good luck with it.
 
mulligan59 said:
I would not be so brave…or is it bold…or perhaps fool hardy. Wouldn’t want to have to defend that at the foot of the Throne. But good luck with it.
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I suspect I will not be the only one on trial that day, and that may not be the most serious charge against me.
 
mulligan59 said:
What isn’t true? My characterization of the current “pop-Catholicism” or my representation of tradition?

Yes, I think so. But it is a banned topic and I’ve tried not to got there. I don’t think it is critical to the issues per-se’. But it is easily demonstrated that many Vatican II documents contradict almost word for word prior dogmatic formulas.
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Why is “pop-Catholicism” a banned topic?
 
drpmjhess said:
I suspect I will not be the only one on trial that day, and that may not be the most serious charge against me.
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I fear my trial as well. But good ol’ fashioned sinning is one thing, the “H” word, and flaunting it at that, much worse. Asking for trouble. Like deliberately throwing rocks at a tiger.
 
mulligan59 said:
Ithe “H” word, and flaunting it at that, much worse. Asking for trouble. Like deliberately throwing rocks at a tiger.
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True, but that’s assuming God takes heresy as seriously as the Magisterium’s heresy hunters do. If I were God (which, thank G*d I’m not) I would be far more ticked off at someone who was generally a complete jerk toward his or her fellow humans and who wrecked the environment I had created, than I would be at a sweet, kind, good person who simply thought differently about something than the hierarchical church had at some point in the past defined it.

Your friendly neighborhood heretic,
Petrus
 
drpmjhess said:
True, but that’s assuming God takes heresy as seriously as the Magisterium’s heresy hunters do. If I were God (which, thank G*d I’m not) I would be far more ticked off at someone who was generally a complete jerk toward his or her fellow humans and who wrecked the environment I had created, than I would be at a sweet, kind, good person who simply thought differently about something than the hierarchical church had at some point in the past defined it.

Your friendly neighborhood heretic,
Petrus
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OK fine, but if you don’t respect the Magisterium, (and I’m just curious now, I’m can’t tell you anything you don’t know, you know the danger you’re in according to what the Church teaches on heresy, technically you’ve excommunicated yourself) but back on point, if you don’t respect the Magisterium, what makes you a Catholic? Or perhaps what attracts you to it as opposed to say the Methodists?
 
mulligan59 said:
OK fine, but if you don’t respect the Magisterium, (and I’m just curious now, I’m can’t tell you anything you don’t know, you know the danger you’re in according to what the Church teaches on heresy, technically you’ve excommunicated yourself)
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By that definition I certainly won’t find hell a lonely place. My family will all be there, as will be many priests I know, most students I’ve taught, and by far the majority of American and European theologians. It’s going to be crowded. I just hope both Zinfandel and Chardonnay grapes grow in such a wam climate!

Petrus
 
mmortal03 said:
As for your suggestion to go ahead and try to make heaven on Earth, I will try to make my stay comfortable, but remember that just because one can imagine a perfect paradise in one’s mind does not imply that one is waiting for us when we die.!
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mmortal03, is your abandonment of an afterlife premised upon or separate from your abandonment of God? The two ideas could (it seems to me) exist independently of each other.

Your friendly local heretic,
Petrus
 
drpmjhess said:
By that definition I certainly won’t find hell a lonely place. My family will all be there, as will be many priests I know, most students I’ve taught, and by far the majority of American and European theologians. It’s going to be crowded. I just hope both Zinfandel and Chardonnay grapes grow in such a wam climate!

Petrus
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Of course the “fewness of the saved” is also part of tradition. So there is no heresy in what you say here, perfectly consistent. But the poor rich man who ignored the plight of Lazareth couldn’t even get a drop of water. I don’t think your grapes will grow. Something to think about.
 
mulligan59 said:
Of course the “fewness of the saved” is also part of tradition. So there is no heresy in what you say here, perfectly consistent. But the poor rich man who ignored the plight of Lazareth couldn’t even get a drop of water. I don’t think your grapes will grow. Something to think about.
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Bill, agave plants grow in desert climes, so there may well be tequila. But I will respond in a more serious vein after work.

Petrus
 
drpmjhess said:
By that definition I certainly won’t find hell a lonely place. My family will all be there, as will be many priests I know, most students I’ve taught, and by far the majority of American and European theologians. It’s going to be crowded. I just hope both Zinfandel and Chardonnay grapes grow in such a wam climate!

Petrus
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You can make up for the damage you have wrought.

I don’t know about your family and I hope God won’t judge them based on your heresy. His grace and mercy hopefully will abound. There is a bible passage that speaks to those who mislead the children.

Unfortunately I agree with you that there may well be many priests and theologians choosing hell

It surely seems like Adam is eating the apple all over again.

As Pope John XXIII said “The smoke of Satan has entered the Church”.

As another said - we are beginning a new springtime. The truth will always prevail and I look forward to summertime.
 
mulligan59 said:
A. I’m sorry, I thought I was arguing with someone who atleast thought of himself as a Catholic. I guess my naivette’ is showing,
But look, don’t you think that something must be true? If not there is little basis for discussion.
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Nope, but I was speaking from the perspective of my past Catholic beliefs, and my own understanding of Catholic theology and tradition, which didn’t disappear when my belief did.
A. And what could those gauges be? Without God, then doesn’t it devolve into might make right? Who is to decide?
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There are general things about human nature that you can build systems of ethics or morality upon. You don’t need a God to exist to have morality, or for individuals to want or need to treat other people as human beings.
]A. First for the Doctor and Spirit Meadow, The correct formulation is “If I were dead”. You’re speaking in the subjunctive. Good grammer is a building block of civilization.
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Excellent how the “grammer” police can’t spell. 🙂
Yes, an “atheist” would perhaps consider the wellfare of his dependants. But only because God had written it on his heart. From where else would such a concern arise?
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I don’t know, your human love for them? Concern does not require God. It is something that is a natural emotion that has a human purpose.
A. The most heinous crime imaginable. Worse than killing your mother…
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Torturing and killing someone is just one example of a crime that I think you would agree is worse than abortion, but we really don’t need to discuss abortion in this thread.
 
drpmjhess said:
mmortal03, is your abandonment of an afterlife premised upon or separate from your abandonment of God? The two ideas could (it seems to me) exist independently of each other.

Your friendly local heretic,
Petrus
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I guess there could be an afterlife without a deity needed to have created it or this world. In other words, it would be something that we cannot scientifically detect, but when we die, our neural consciousness would go there or be transferred there somehow, and it, like the current world, would not have been created by a god, but would just be here, as this world just is. But I think the same logic that applies to my not living my life with theism, also has me not living my life with that one on my mind.
 
mmortal03 said:
Wait a sec, drpmjhess is the Sedevacantist?
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Nope, at least I don’t think so. I think I may have left that impression by poorly editing a “quote” reply and leaving his sign off below my answer… sorry.
 
There are general things about human nature that you can build systems of ethics or morality upon. You don’t need a God to exist to have morality, or for individuals to want or need to treat other people as human beings.

A. Yes…and from where does it come, what informs it?
A. Not necassarily. The statement is broad. But no, what makes abortion so horrible goes beyond the physical suffering of the immediate victim. The betrayal by one’s mother? Torture and kill me before I’d want that heartache. But the big problem, is the supernatural aspects. You see I believe baptism is necessary.
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