Catholic Traditon vs Science - are we looking deep enough

[mmortal03]

drpmjhess a Catholic? LOL. When? He’s been nothing but an self professed genius from the get go.

Actually, I am the one you have mislabelled, not him…more on that below.
He’s made some perfectly intelligent responses (that I mostly agree with) to your statements. It isn’t going to get you anywhere to criticize others who have smarts here, because we pride ourselves in making intelligent discussion. No, you don’t need a PhD, but your attacks even against that were unnecessary. I am not saying drpmjhess has been a complete saint, but you have made some pretty far out claims at points.

I stand by my reasoning for the school shootings. They are a fundamental spinout from the culture of death lack of Christianity. I am well awaire that Christians do bad things also. There is a whole hodge podge of people from sinner to saint. I’m sure we are both in the middle somewhere.

If there is something superior that conservative Christian teachings have over other beliefs in the United States with regards to certain school shootings, it can be emulated. There is work being done in many areas to catch this problem before it occurs, and I am never one to say that religion has no positives. My position is that these incidences have a cultural/societal component, but also have many individual psychological and familial issues involved, and aren’t anywhere near that simple as to say that a void in Christian beliefs is what caused them.

But there are always some trade-offs to having full freedom of thought and freedom of religion, and I will not argue with you about that in principle, but maybe in the magnitude of the importance that you are stressing it. One can always come up with hypothetical, homogenized societies where if some particular set of beliefs is forced upon the populous, there will be lower incidence of certain crimes. Saudi Arabia hasn’t had school shootings, for example.

So, yes, these school shootings in America are horrible and something everyone would like to prevent (including atheists), but they are also extremely rare occurrences, when you look at how many high schools we have in America.

These are just assessments of my views. I don’t think that driving out school prayer and God from public schools has done any good. From a Catholic standpoint the mere praise of the Holy Name blesses the place that it is said and makes it Holy Ground. It also offers a certain level of spiritual protection which the blind secular society has driven out…

Well, besides the metaphysical claim that you are making here that I am not even going to touch, I think that it is important that institutional Christian school prayer was removed. Children who’s parents are not Christians should not be forced to be surrounded by it, no matter how much of a good thing Christians think it is. Furthermore, no one who supports civil liberties with any level of intelligence has a problem with private prayer in school.

I don’t think I’m that closed minded. I think it is safe to say that we don’t agree in spite of our common Catholic faith…

This is where you got the labels wrong about drpmjhess and me. I actually fairly recently left Catholicism and am now an agnostic atheist, but I still enjoy sticking around here and participating in certain discussions. Maybe if you read that last comment of mine again now that you know this fact, you would have a better idea of where I was coming from.

Well, running a little of the topic anyway. I think your right. I will be getting back to normal life rather than spend it with a bunch of corny people who have nothing better to do than jabber about politics, evolution, and christianity. No one ever agrees much in these places anyway.

I actually think that your statement that “no one ever agrees much in these places” is why these are important discussions to have. It opens people up to different perspectives. I guess some people (not necessarily you, but others) don’t see the relevance of gaining more knowledge and reading about others’ perspectives. They just want to stick to what is comfortable.

I think the trading of viewpoints is vital. I don’t think we should just stick to our own personal beliefs as them being somehow predetermined-to-be-correct opinions, and then isolate ourselves from the world. In other words, to stick to any one creed while never seriously investigating any others is very problematic.

I would argue that the problems of today’s world are often due to ignorance, not due to the lack of any particular religion.

 

[BiblicalDavid]

oops. sorry, wrong guy.

I loose track of these things a little bit because I don’t have my buttock stuck in a chair all day thumping out discussion on religion, politics and what color of yellow orange hue my pee is in the morning

In a nut shell, Darwinist and evolution theory is like the energiser bunny without batteries. If you don’t have God, it don’t go.

No ego here. I could be wrong, Could be right. Could even be a little narrow minded.I don’t think anything I have said is a stretch and agree to a small extent with an occasional direction from the Civil Liberties spin.

I haven’t fallen in love with my own ideas as my discussion board shadow has. I completely understand that they are a bit radical. So was the Resurrection of Christ (but I believe it did happen and no scientific theory is going to prove or disprove that it did not or did). You can study that till your blue in the face and you won’t find physical proof until Christ returns again.

Rest assured, I am definitely not a saint. I hope that I gain just enough favor with God as to squeek through the door of heaven when this experiment is done. And it will probably be a tight fit.

I also would enjoy the transmuting and alchemy studies, Our modern chemistry spun out of the methods of the early alchemists…I have a lot of lead in my rump that I wouldn’t mind converting.

That being said. Gotta go. I think your assessments of me are so very harsh and I am now going to go blubber in my pillow and sob for the rest of the day.

Snow on the ground here today. Someone explain that to my. Why, I mean really, Why?

Have fun.

 

[drpmjhess]

Actually, I am the one you have mislabelled, not him…more on that below. He’s made some perfectly intelligent responses (that I mostly agree with) to your statements. It isn’t going to get you anywhere to criticize others who have smarts here, because we pride ourselves in making intelligent discussion. No, you don’t need a PhD, but your attacks even against that were unnecessary. I am not saying drpmjhess has been a complete saint, but you have made some pretty far out claims at points.

So, yes, these school shootings in America are horrible and something everyone would like to prevent (including atheists), but they are also extremely rare occurrences, when you look at how many high schools we have in America…

mmortal03, did I ever lay claim to sainthood? I don’t recall having done so. I’m just a very-well-educated Roman Catholic scholar who enjoys discussing fascinating and provocative issues at the interface between philosophy, theology, and science, since that is my area of professional expertise. Interest in these issues is hardly a sin!

Regarding school shootings, I wonder why there is an apparently higher incidence of them in states with a lower understanding and acceptance of evolution (e.g., Columbine, near Colorado Springs and Dobson’s “Focus on the Family”). This could be mere coincidence, or it could be that the rate of shootings is lower in more liberal and better-educated communities. Here’s a map of school shootings:

cbsnews.com/htdocs/guns_in_america/html/framesource_schoolmap.html

I’m sure there’s at least one sociology doctoral dissertation to be written on this topic!

Petrus

 

[reggieM]

The theory of evolution is not a mathematical equation with 100% predictive power

That’s certainly a weakness as compared, for example, to mathematics.

 

[reggieM]

The minutia and word plays that evolution deniers like you will go to to win your superficial logical “victories” is indicative only of your desperate need to fight off that cognitive dissonance in your heads. It just isn’t worth it arguing with you on the same trivial nonsense over and over again.

I asked you quite clearly if you found “any” weaknesses at all in evolutionary theory.

You replied, “no”.

I concluded that you must be some kind of fanatic – someone who is so blindly loyal to evolutionary theory that you can find no weaknesses at all in the theory.

Now you are able to accept some weaknesses. That is an improvement as I see it.

It would have been easy to avoid this repetitive argument – all you had to do is point out that you did, indeed, see some weaknesses in evolutionary theory.

But instead, you took an absolute position – no weaknesses at all.

I don’t think your response is unusual – only your recognition later that there are some areas to question. Many Darwinists insist that there is absolutely nothing to question regarding evolutionary theory.

 

[BiblicalDavid]

Some of the intrigue for the “Expelled” movie for me was that the atheists being interviewed admitted believing in God to some extent earlier in their life. Based on the Darwinist theories it appears that there has been a distinct erosion process in their faith in God. If this is the only reason or even just part of the reason, I find that disappointing for them.

My remarks certainly have bubbled the conversation for their lack of intelligence. Sorry everyone, I’ve brought you all down to my level. Always a tragedy.

“Create in me a clean heart oh God, Blot out my offences.”

 

[drpmjhess]

Some of the intrigue for the “Expelled” movie for me was that the atheists being interviewed admitted believing in God to some extent earlier in their life. Based on the Darwinist theories it appears that there has been a distinct erosion process in their faith in God.

David, this wouldn’t explain my friend who was initially non-religious, and whose studies and work in evolutionary biology led him first to God, and then to priestly ordination.

Petrus

 

[mmortal03]

mmortal03, did I ever lay claim to sainthood? I don’t recall having done so. I’m just a very-well-educated Roman Catholic scholar who enjoys discussing fascinating and provocative issues at the interface between philosophy, theology, and science, since that is my area of professional expertise. Interest in these issues is hardly a sin!

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I hoped you wouldn’t take it that way, I was simply hoping you would understand that I had your back, and that I was trying to be balanced in how I approached BiblicalDavid. I didn’t want him to get the impression that I was not giving the benefit of the doubt on things to him, as well.

Regarding school shootings, I wonder why there is an apparently higher incidence of them in states with a lower understanding and acceptance of evolution (e.g., Columbine, near Colorado Springs and Dobson’s “Focus on the Family”). This could be mere coincidence, or it could be that the rate of shootings is lower in more liberal and better-educated communities. Here’s a map of school shootings:

cbsnews.com/htdocs/guns_in_america/html/framesource_schoolmap.html

Interesting link. I actually hadn’t realized there had been that many of them spread out across the country, though, I still think my argument holds that they are rare occurrences. I am a supporter of gun rights, and have to say that upbringing may be to blame for most of these cases. Parenting is a set of skills that needs to be more broadly taught, because these kind of things show that it affects us all. Childhood development and upbringing is a crucial stage in people’s lives. We have got to educate people more effectively.

To me, they look fairly evenly distributed across the map, though it is important to note that not all of those were rampages, and some of them were the college shooting type, so who knows how similar these cases all really are.

I’m sure there’s at least one sociology doctoral dissertation to be written on this topic!

Yeah, no kidding. I’d like to read some of those.

Edit: I read through the Wikipedia article on the topic, and my hypothesis about parenting might not even be completely on the money. It states that “Some lived with both parents in “an ideal, All-American family.”” (though I would counter-argue that their description of “ideal” might be too general to really get at the possibility that there could still have been something wrong with the parenting.)

Edit 2: Which further led me to be reminded of a related topic that is of significant relevance to this thread, moral panic:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

 

[drpmjhess]

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I hoped you wouldn’t take it that way, I was simply hoping you would understand that I had your back, and that I was trying to be balanced in how I approached BiblicalDavid.

To me, they look fairly evenly distributed across the map, …

It states that “Some lived with both parents in “an ideal, All-American family.”” (though I would counter-argue that their description of “ideal” might be too general to really get at the possibility that there could still have been something wrong with the parenting.)
]

(1) Thanks, mmortal03 – I was more or less kidding, as I knew it wasn’t you who had accused me of self-ascription of sainthood! It was Biblical David’s ad hominem in his moment of panic.

(2) I agree that it may be hard to ascribe school shootings to any one cause. Factors include: the easy availability of guns in American culture, community/racial.economic strife, inadequate mental health supervision for unbalanced individuals, TV violence, etc.

(3) Is there such a thing as an All-American family"?

Petrus

 

[Chuck_H]

(1) Thanks, mmortal03 – I was more or less kidding, as I knew it wasn’t you who had accused me of self-ascription of sainthood! It was Biblical David’s ad hominem in his moment of panic.

Petrus

No real comment on any of the above. I just needed to tie this to some kind of thread.

After several weeks of reading (and praying). I think I can tie it together.

Amazingly both biblical literalists and atheistic evolutionary scientists share a common bond. They both want certainty which is never available in this moment, this period of time. In fact, it is never available until God stops time and we exist perfectly in Him out of time.
If there is any clear fault in religion, (in tradition) it is a constant desire to have God controlled. Quid pro quo, we have done our part and He must do His. If there is any clear fault in science it is hubris, also quid pro quo. We have this and can dispense with that. Our work has given us power over our fate. We have mutation and selection down so our fate is certain now.
The fundamentalist Christian and the conservative Catholic (maybe even the liberal Catholic) understand that there exists a canonical scripture, an Old and New Testament. The catholic claims X books, the fundamentalist X-Y books, the atheist 1 book and ,of course, all are wrong. For example, the new testament is still being written; some of the books are the book of St Teresa of Avila, the books of Augustine I-100, the book of John Paul II, the book of Rohr, the book of Gerard, maybe (just maybe) even the book of Darwin. All are another testimony inspired by God the father or Jesus the Son or The Holy Spirit.
In the dark years humanity reached a stasis, a place where we assumed there was nothing new, everything must proceed from the old. We had our Bible, we had the canons of the church, we had our creed.
Into this calm, placid, going nowhere fast pond God shakes our foundations easily and drives us from the warm mud that was becoming our tomb. Certainty? (God laughs) He tells us we are old enough to give up Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny. It is time for us to see and begin to struggle with the deeper mysteries. The practical side of evolution gives us a better handle on disease and developmental abnormalities and cancer, the philosophical side of evolution deflates us and takes away our scape goat. We are a work in progress and our sinfulness is our own. We can’t blame it on some one else. We are a bit of nature, favored by God, with all of the flaws and tendencies toward selfishness and self deception and the only way out of the mess to seek God and let Him mold us into perfection. This all leads up to the inescapable understanding that (oh my Lord!) society, religion and science are still undergoing evolution
Science is the teenager in the family, obstinate, all knowing, full of hubris and self pride. We “know it all” and don’t need anything the old people hang on to since we have all the answers. Religion is the grandparent, hanging on to “the good old days” and suspicious of the newfangled ideas and facts. Sadly neither teen ager or grandparent are on a solid foundation or maybe it is not sadly, maybe it is a necessary tension between what is believed and what is real so that progress can be made.
So, neither side is looking deeply enough, neither is seeing the mystery of God or the world. Both are arguing from their own shaky positions, but from that argument will come something better, something more true and God will smile and go on to the next step in forming us.
There seems to me to be only one true quid pro quo. Get smug and sure and God will shake the tree.

That’s it in a nutshell to be understood or trashed, affirmed or declared heresy.

 

[jcrichton]

Will lau dee dau. I didnt realslize thes furum wis fer eleetists winkles an hi-brow wizbangs.

David

Hi, David!

:extrahappy: :crying: :bowdown:

…I have not laughed so hard, unexpectedly, for a very long time… as the web’s intellects would have it: ro lol or is it rolol!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think that it is important that institutional Christian school prayer was removed. Children who’s parents are not Christians should not be forced to be surrounded by it, no matter how much of a good thing Christians think it is. Furthermore, no one who supports civil liberties with any level of intelligence has a problem with private prayer in school.

…where did that happened?.. did you not follow the news in the last decade or so?.. even a moment of silence, organized by the kids themselves, was litigated against by that pseudo civil rights cult–they claimed that the rights of the atheists’ kids were being violated.

According to your statement atheists and their hired guns are not persons of “any level of intelligence.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

No real comment on any of the above. I just needed to tie this to some kind of thread.

After several weeks of reading (and praying). I think I can tie it together.

Amazingly both biblical literalists and atheistic evolutionary scientists share a common bond. They both want certainty which is never available in this moment, this period of time. In fact, it is never available until God stops time and we exist perfectly in Him out of time.
If there is any clear fault in religion, (in tradition) it is a constant desire to have God controlled. Quid pro quo, we have done our part and He must do His. If there is any clear fault in science it is hubris, also quid pro quo. We have this and can dispense with that. Our work has given us power over our fate. We have mutation and selection down so our fate is certain now.
The fundamentalist Christian and the conservative Catholic (maybe even the liberal Catholic) understand that there exists a canonical scripture, an Old and New Testament. The catholic claims X books, the fundamentalist X-Y books, the atheist 1 book and ,of course, all are wrong. For example, the new testament is still being written; some of the books are the book of St Teresa of Avila, the books of Augustine I-100, the book of John Paul II, the book of Rohr, the book of Gerard, maybe (just maybe) even the book of Darwin. All are another testimony inspired by God the father or Jesus the Son or The Holy Spirit.
In the dark years humanity reached a stasis, a place where we assumed there was nothing new, everything must proceed from the old. We had our Bible, we had the canons of the church, we had our creed.
Into this calm, placid, going nowhere fast pond God shakes our foundations easily and drives us from the warm mud that was becoming our tomb. Certainty? (God laughs) He tells us we are old enough to give up Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny. It is time for us to see and begin to struggle with the deeper mysteries. The practical side of evolution gives us a better handle on disease and developmental abnormalities and cancer, the philosophical side of evolution deflates us and takes away our scape goat. We are a work in progress and our sinfulness is our own. We can’t blame it on some one else. We are a bit of nature, favored by God, with all of the flaws and tendencies toward selfishness and self deception and the only way out of the mess to seek God and let Him mold us into perfection. This all leads up to the inescapable understanding that (oh my Lord!) society, religion and science are still undergoing evolution
Science is the teenager in the family, obstinate, all knowing, full of hubris and self pride. We “know it all” and don’t need anything the old people hang on to since we have all the answers. Religion is the grandparent, hanging on to “the good old days” and suspicious of the newfangled ideas and facts. Sadly neither teen ager or grandparent are on a solid foundation or maybe it is not sadly, maybe it is a necessary tension between what is believed and what is real so that progress can be made.
So, neither side is looking deeply enough, neither is seeing the mystery of God or the world. Both are arguing from their own shaky positions, but from that argument will come something better, something more true and God will smile and go on to the next step in forming us.
There seems to me to be only one true quid pro quo. Get smug and sure and God will shake the tree.

That’s it in a nutshell to be understood or trashed, affirmed or declared heresy.

Hi, Chuck H!

Nice muse… nicely orchestrated… but you forget one thing: it is the Church that can deem it heresy and you’ve already stated that she is past her prime and inconsequential.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Chuck_H]

Hi, Chuck H!

Nice muse… nicely orchestrated… but you forget one thing: it is the Church that can deem it heresy and you’ve already stated that she is past her prime and inconsequential.

Maran atha!

Angel

Hardly inconsequential. It is not the Church that is past Her prime. She is eternally young, thanks to Her Spouse. The grands I speak of are those that hang on to dualism and legalism.

If you have never seen anyone claim heresy on CAF then you haven’t been reading posts on very many threads

 

[jcrichton]

Hardly inconsequential. It is not the Church that is past Her prime. She is eternally young, thanks to Her Spouse. The grands I speak of are those that hang on to dualism and legalism.

If you have never seen anyone claim heresy on CAF then you haven’t been reading posts on very many threads

Sorry… I misunderstood your position; this threw me off:

Religion is the grandparent, hanging on to “the good old days” and suspicious of the newfangled ideas and facts.

Thank you for clarifying your statement–I suffer from red-flagitez (relax people, it’s a fabricated expression)–I now have a clearer picture of what you were conveying.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the Body of Christ is renewed in Him regardless of place and time.

…yes, I have noticed many claims from Catholics, non-Catholics and non-Believers; for the most part these claims are just that… so I give them the importance of a grain of sand.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BiblicalDavid]

David, this wouldn’t explain my friend who was initially non-religious, and whose studies and work in evolutionary biology led him first to God, and then to priestly ordination.

Petrus

Interesting. As they say, God works in mysterious ways. Good to hear there is a more positive spin.

 

[BiblicalDavid]

Hi, David!

:extrahappy: :crying: :bowdown:

…I have not laughed so hard, unexpectedly, for a very long time… as the web’s intellects would have it: ro lol or is it rolol!

Maran atha!

Angel

Who me? I have never been known for any kind of humor or wry remark…

Always glad to entertain. I was looking for a little icon with a cowboy hat and spitting chew but all I could find was a leprechaun.

 

[drpmjhess]

Interesting. As they say, God works in mysterious ways. Good to hear there is a more positive spin.

It’s neither more nor less mysterious than other vocations. Priests can make great scientists, often for the same reasons that make them good counselors, confessors, homilists, or theologians. I know the Jesuits at the Vatican observatory – an amazing group of men!

Petrus

 

[BiblicalDavid]

It’s neither more nor less mysterious than other vocations. Priests can make great scientists, often for the same reasons that make them good counselors, confessors, homilists, or theologians. I know the Jesuits at the Vatican observatory – an amazing group of men!

Petrus

You rub elbows with interesting company then. I am sure that it is facinating. Most of the priests I have met over my lifetime have been rural parish priests, missionaries, a lawyer turned priest, and a variety of others. My sister knew a priest that would create inventions for Honeywell Corporation as a hobby. I think I would have enjoyed meeting him but I am doubtful he is still alive…very brilliant man form the sounds of it.

It can be a difficult occupation but I am sure that it is fulfilling and rewarding. Based on our discussions and my high regard for the priestly profession I am grateful you did not say, “–an amazing group of gorillas” :whacky:

 

[BiblicalDavid]

Who me? I have never been known for any kind of humor or wry remark…

Always glad to entertain. I was looking for a little icon with a cowboy hat and spitting chew but all I could find was a leprechaun.

]Hi, David!

…I have not laughed so hard, unexpectedly, for a very long time… as the web’s intellects would have it: ro lol or is it rolol!

Maran atha!

Angel

I think it is my turn to now laugh uncontrollably…

:extrahappy: :crying: :bowdown:

Apparently I am in a state of *moral panic *as proposed by my two beloved friends, MMortal and drpmjhess. Well, let’s call it concern, but certainly not panic. I now marvel at the fact that I am being dealt with. Not sure what that means but I am sure they will tell me it is very simple. I am hoping to connect my next dot soon.

Science does require physical framework, models, templates, data collection, mathematical proofs and so on and etc.'s. I can understand a certain amount of sterile and matter of fact ness related to such scientific approach. Be it atheist or Christian makes little or no difference when regarding simple facts. As well, science is only a framework. To be certain, we don’t even know what gravity and evolutional truly are yet. (Based on earlier threads) What the heck is electricity? What holds a quark or threads together within a group of atoms (again a scientific framework and theory) certainly each discovery as studied holds a certain level of paradigm shift to beliefs and knowledge that we held as truth in the past. Given the latest discoveries of DNA, I am fascinated by the possibilities of this scientific mapping.

I have heard many a scientist loftier in knowledge and overall smarts than I conclude that “at some point science ends and theology begins”. I find this interesting from the standpoint that they realize a stage where the hand of God takes over and the science goes off the charts.

This discussion is turning into a bit of a roundabout for me and is not really a value added activity any longer. I find the discussions direction a little weird at times based on my simple, farm boy, upbringing.

I am just a simple workaday guy that generally is just trying to make a living. I don’t think my assessments are that much of a stretch based on my current information.

Should you be able to pour the ocean into your footprint on the beach, let me know. It is only then that you will have discovered the true secrets of how God has designed life and the universe.

He surely has made it interesting to study in spite of this however and we, in our lofty view of self, think that we have everything figured out.

If many of the historical events of the past were driven by moral panic then I am grateful for at least a couple of them. The historical items based on tyranny in particular.