Catholic Traditon vs Science - are we looking deep enough

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Nothing absolutely stops anyone – religious or otherwise – from doing anything; there are plenty of religious murderers. But conventional morality can be powerful: avoid wanton killing of one’s fellows because a society in which there is no prohibition against murder is a lawless one and a society that would adversely affect the welfare of oneself and one’s family. In fact, I wonder whether a society that had no prohibition against murder exist at all.

In short, societies have morality, based either pragmatically on extension of self interest, or based on the revelations of a "“God” who imposed these rules on us. Adding God to the mix provokes a chicken-and-egg question: does God prohibit murder because murder is wrong, or is murder wrong because God prohibits it?

Petrus
Ordinarily, God does not want humans to mess with his creation, therefore murder is wrong. He forbade it in the 4th Commandment. He wishes our lives to be fulfilled according to His plan.

I would say both - He did not intend sin and death for humans. He immediately challenged Cain after he murdered his brother. God wants us to be fruitful and multiply. God had to prohibit it because man could not decide on his own.
 
Ordinarily, God does not want humans to mess with his creation, therefore murder is wrong. He forbade it in the 4th Commandment. He wishes our lives to be fulfilled according to His plan.
And yet there is a man who says that God speaks to him, who has invented a war that has killed 4,000+ American soldiers. So if we are to trust this, it is God’s plan that these 4,000 have lost their lives.
 
This is not true at all as it doesn’t require a god at all. I have read Mere Christianity, and I don’t buy Lewis’ argument one bit. He makes a leap in his logic that there is no basis for. Morality can be completely a human thing. Just because I can imagine certain optimized or ideal rules for interaction between human beings doesn’t mean a god is needed. Being able to conceptualize of a “higher standard” does not imply there being a supernatural or a God at all. You can have a higher, or best, or optimal standard for many different things. A hammer I might imagine in my mind is better for the job that I am doing than another hammer. This doesn’t mean that a god must exist to give me the ability to think of a better hammer. The hammer is by itself a self contained entity that I can imagine and apply if I can actually build one.

this actually just means that he is more intelligent than the animals and that he has different interests than the animals, such that he can optimize his collective environment in a greater manner than the other animals. There is no need for there to be a god at all for you to entertain thoughts of ethics and morality.
I guess this is one of those rational arguments that has no defined answer. The more I read about sociobiology the less I can support morals or ethics based on genetics. While some(few) behaviors have a selectable advantage, many other human traits do not. Plus, if morals and ethics were genetically based or even brain structurally based then we would not need laws or protection from ourselves. The complexity is enormous and is at once, in reality, a step forward and a step back. I mean one human is showing complex altruistic and moral behaviors and the next human is totally devoid of them or at least severely lacking them.
 
And yet there is a man who says that God speaks to him, who has invented a war that has killed 4,000+ American soldiers. So if we are to trust this, it is God’s plan that these 4,000 have lost their lives.
Naw. It means God says it is stupid idea and counterproductive and just flat wrong, but since we have free will we are probably going to do it anyway. Also, you have known GWB long enough to entertain serious doubt as to actual brain function in that skull to begin with. **** and George were planning something a long time before the planes. The AQ freaks just gave them license. 🤷
 
And yet there is a man who says that God speaks to him, who has invented a war that has killed 4,000+ American soldiers. So if we are to trust this, it is God’s plan that these 4,000 have lost their lives.
You cannot be that naive.
 
Hi, David!

…intellectualism and euphemism have much in common: they both operate from a position of grandeur and create formulas to produce a desired outcome… much of it is based on opinions–as we know, just as brains, everyone has one; I’ve learned long ago to respect other people’s opinions… understanding that, as a grain of salt, those opinions weigh less than my own.

So, do not despair; you can only own the label that you yourself commit to owning.

…as for science… I think that it is a wonderful tool at our disposal; yet, even science can serve a dark/evil purpose in the hands of intellectualism devoid of God.

Maran atha!

Angel
Thank you for this most intelligent response. It took me a little while to absorb it but it does come down to opinion. We certinainly have our share of athiests, liberal, God fearing, and phylosophy enthusiast on this discussion. My frame ofreference is, of course, the belief in a Great and Most wonderful God. I have seen and experienced the miraculous. All of these experiences are a radical departure from the confines of science and what I can emplain here.

The living truth of God is a much more difficult sale to the intelleculal devoid of God as well. Perhaps, between the believer and the non, we are both wrong and there is something even beyond our traditions and our percieptions of a world without God that explains life source and mechanics better than evolution could. I am free to admit that I can not find a way of making that intellectual quauntum leap, and that is certainly because of my small and very unconsequential mind. Yet if you want to go even deeper, that would certainly be territory for this discussion. Every Christian, at some point in the journey,is faced with the possibility or arguement that there is no God and that life sustains itself on its own constructs and mechanics/systems. I have even tried to find examples in the system of humanity of what life would be like without a God driven universe or society. We can only see this in the movies because non of it can or ever will be able to be truly and in a pure form possible due to the influence of God believing peoples. The closest example would be depicted in the movie “Blade Runner” or “The Matrix” in my view. One depicting a world of absolutely no reference to God and the world moving along as its own organism. The other depicting a micro world and a larger external world and system that we can not see. Both worlds devoid of God or any mention of him. Driven by rather menacing and totally void of God machines. There could also be a “looking glass” universe to ours based on positive and negative energy and black holes. Who knows…

Based on our current knowledge of the constructs of life, these movie examples are purely fantasy but can not be disproven any more than evolution. These examples would certainly describe a different construct of humanity in varius forms… a self evolving super race that is smarter and stronger than anyone else as an example. They do give examples of what life might be like without a God however and the masses self reliant upon themselves. In some ways they are bleak, dark examples. They certainly reach beyond tradition.

Beyond these media fantacies and in my point of view, these constructs are not possible and the Triune God runs the show. And it is an incredible show that He runs. Discussions to the contrary are certainly interesting and I respect them for what they are. But they ultimately don’t makes sense to me from any practical stand point.
 
Naw. It means God says it is stupid idea and counterproductive and just flat wrong, but since we have free will we are probably going to do it anyway. Also, you have known GWB long enough to entertain serious doubt as to actual brain function in that skull to begin with. **** and George were planning something a long time before the planes. The AQ freaks just gave them license. 🤷
Is someone kidding me???

Giving Cheney’s normal first name caused a net nanny to kick in? (note the four stars above). That is beyond belief:eek:
 
Actually the humor is a strategy. If I ever get that full of myself just take me out behind the barn and shoot me. Life would be no fun anymore. Humor separates us from the apes. (among other things). It also disarms.

Hey there going to have a “Simpsons” episode about this stuff we are talking about!:extrahappy:

I am not completely certain that my shadows have a sense of humor. Transmuting Gold?.. er ah…, transmuting diamonds with their clinching gludes…

Timing is everything…
…but if everyone had a formula to create precious metals and stones out of debris… wouldn’t that upset the diamond, gold and other monopolies, not to mentioned that the streets of NY would truly be paved in gold?

…on the Simpsons… you know the producers are biased, right?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Why do you have to continue making this false assumption that without God, you can have no morality? It is completely false. Take away God, and it becomes okay to murder? No, it doesn’t. I’ll give more examples if you want.
Why do you insist that you can be moraly right when you remove morality?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
“When and where did it happen?” Is that what you are asking?
What you quoted that I said never had to imply that it specifically happened at any particular location, but my understanding was that it did. I said “I think that it is important that institutional Christian school prayer was removed” (in other words, that the possibility of it was removed). Your anecdotal evidence that you did not see it in New York City means nothing. That just means that it did not happen in NYC when you went to school there. This is a big country, sir, and NYC was also likely to be more P.C. at whichever point in history you choose compared to rural America.

The point is that teachers shouldn’t be leading students in prayer. I am sure that that has happened in the past.

Your point regarding breaking up individual student groups wanting to pray on their own time is contrary to the law. If they want to pray before they eat at lunch, for example, they can. If they want to pray together in a small group at a time where it does not disrupt instruction, they can. If a Muslim wants to pray at the certain times in the day, they will allow him to go to a room and do that. What they can’t do is lead the class or student body in prayers. Your argument that prayer is not allowed in school is a straw man argument.

Quoting Wikipedia on this:

If any of that was blocked, it was against the law.

You are going to have to show me your sources on this, and specify who was targeting these people. If they were doing as you say, and there were no other wrinkles in this, then, yes they don’t have any intelligence regarding their stances on civil liberties.
Quoting what should be and actually bringing the quoted argument into factual existence are two very distinct issues. Blacks were allowed to vote at one time or another with the same rights as any other citizen; yet, even local governments would bring armed men and dogs to keep them from voting–eventually that practice went away; yet, I am quite sure that there are still some citizens alived today that can remember the experience (on both sides of the racial divide).

…as for proof… I can search the Web to see if I can hit something–I do not have news print nor news clips of the actual events; if I find something I’ll post it for you.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Thank you for this most intelligent response. It took me a little while to absorb it but it does come down to opinion. We certinainly have our share of athiests, liberal, God fearing, and phylosophy enthusiast on this discussion. My frame ofreference is, of course, the belief in a Great and Most wonderful God. I have seen and experienced the miraculous. All of these experiences are a radical departure from the confines of science and what I can emplain here.

The living truth of God is a much more difficult sale to the intelleculal devoid of God as well. Perhaps, between the believer and the non, we are both wrong and there is something even beyond our traditions and our percieptions of a world without God that explains life source and mechanics better than evolution could. I am free to admit that I can not find a way of making that intellectual quauntum leap, and that is certainly because of my small and very unconsequential mind. Yet if you want to go even deeper, that would certainly be territory for this discussion. Every Christian, at some point in the journey,is faced with the possibility or arguement that there is no God and that life sustains itself on its own constructs and mechanics/systems. I have even tried to find examples in the system of humanity of what life would be like without a God driven universe or society. We can only see this in the movies because non of it can or ever will be able to be truly and in a pure form possible due to the influence of God believing peoples. The closest example would be depicted in the movie “Blade Runner” or “The Matrix” in my view. One depicting a world of absolutely no reference to God and the world moving along as its own organism. The other depicting a micro world and a larger external world and system that we can not see. Both worlds devoid of God or any mention of him. Driven by rather menacing and totally void of God machines. There could also be a “looking glass” universe to ours based on positive and negative energy and black holes. Who knows…

Based on our current knowledge of the constructs of life, these movie examples are purely fantasy but can not be disproven any more than evolution. These examples would certainly describe a different construct of humanity in varius forms… a self evolving super race that is smarter and stronger than anyone else as an example. They do give examples of what life might be like without a God however and the masses self reliant upon themselves. In some ways they are bleak, dark examples. They certainly reach beyond tradition.

Beyond these media fantacies and in my point of view, these constructs are not possible and the Triune God runs the show. And it is an incredible show that He runs. Discussions to the contrary are certainly interesting and I respect them for what they are. But they ultimately don’t makes sense to me from any practical stand point.
Thank you for your kind words…

I concur with your thoughts… being a SciFi fan I understand your analogy; though for the most part they are devoid of God, each movie has characters that border on the desire to become or be a god: Blade Runner’s machines wanting to be more than the sum of their created parts–playing god while seeking to be more as humans, and The Matrix’s promise of a messiah–that one that would evolve beyond the operating system’s capacity and would ascend (and make it possible for others to ascend) into a god-like creature.

While God is removed from these societies, there is the influence of or the desire to be greater than just mere human–as you have mentioned, there exists that influence of the Believers that even hollo-wood seems unable to ignore.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
…but if everyone had a formula to create precious metals and stones out of debris… wouldn’t that upset the diamond, gold and other monopolies, not to mentioned that the streets of NY would truly be paved in gold?

…on the Simpsons… you know the producers are biased, right?

Maran atha!

Angel
Yes, upset to say the least. The upside is that you could pave your roads with diamond composite and it would give excellent traction and incredible durability. As well, electronics would work better because gold could be used in all of its conducting componentry (it is a better conductor than any other metal)

Don’t worry, I know…the media is swimming in bias.

Lisa Simpson’s soap box and character are a sounding board for many of those bias’s. Almost all are 180 degrees from what my positions are… and for me that can be a humorous relief valve.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with…

Perhaps Jupiter will align with Mars and evolution will begin a compressed reversal. We could all look like gorrilla’s by the time we die. That would kinda suck.
 
Thank you for your kind words…

I concur with your thoughts… being a SciFi fan I understand your analogy; though for the most part they are devoid of God, each movie has characters that border on the desire to become or be a god: Blade Runner’s machines wanting to be more than the sum of their created parts–playing god while seeking to be more as humans, and The Matrix’s promise of a messiah–that one that would evolve beyond the operating system’s capacity and would ascend (and make it possible for others to ascend) into a god-like creature.

While God is removed from these societies, there is the influence of or the desire to be greater than just mere human–as you have mentioned, there exists that influence of the Believers that even hollo-wood seems unable to ignore.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Thank you for your kind words…

I concur with your thoughts… being a SciFi fan I understand your analogy; though for the most part they are devoid of God, each movie has characters that border on the desire to become or be a god: Blade Runner’s machines wanting to be more than the sum of their created parts–playing god while seeking to be more as humans, and The Matrix’s promise of a messiah–that one that would evolve beyond the operating system’s capacity and would ascend (and make it possible for others to ascend) into a god-like creature.

While God is removed from these societies, there is the influence of or the desire to be greater than just mere human–as you have mentioned, there exists that influence of the Believers that even hollo-wood seems unable to ignore.

Maran atha!

Angel
It is difficult to find a perfect example. Even the two fantasy examples have some holes regarding “pure Godless sample populations” per example as you have mentioned. The closest social experiment that I can find is Communism, which mandates athiesm and drove Christianity underground. It still does in China. Yet even those systems are influenced by the constructs of a God whether they are aware of it or not. And, as you say, to
become a god. Perhaps facism as well in driving out all self initiative and belief for the means of the state.

Not very optimistic examples, but in my view, valid expectations of the end result of an athiestic state.

With the denial of God there is always a denial in the fact that we are influenced by the Judeau-Christian laws. Once those laws are systematically stripped away the non believer becomes a god unto himself.
 
Yes, upset to say the least. The upside is that you could pave your roads with diamond composite and it would give excellent traction and incredible durability. As well, electronics would work better because gold could be used in all of its conducting componentry (it is a better conductor than any other metal)

Don’t worry, I know…the media is swimming in bias.

Lisa Simpson’s soap box and character are a sounding board for many of those bias’s. Almost all are 180 degrees from what my positions are… and for me that can be a humorous relief valve.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with…

Perhaps Jupiter will align with Mars and evolution will begin a compressed reversal. We could all look like gorrilla’s by the time we die. That would kinda suck.
…you know… I didn’t think about the possibilities: better conductors could bring “I robot” into existence and eventually the “Millennium Man” would take over our chores and we would be free to travel to the Delta Quadroon–hey, put me down for the Gold, Diamond, and Platinum Home Alchemy Kits… 😛

…interesting, I thought I was the only one to know that character as Soap Box Lisa… I only mentioned it because many times these programs are seen for their entertainment value and much of their seemingly passive doctrines are overlooked.

…there’s a little problem with the gorrilla scenario: if it happens to everyone all at once… well… these animals have been known to be very kind and gregarious; but if different people evolve at different times… let’s just say that it would not be a pretty picture as collectors and aphrodisiac buffs would no doubt make the rivers run red. 😦

Maran atha!

Angel
 
It is difficult to find a perfect example. Even the two fantasy examples have some holes regarding “pure Godless sample populations” per example as you have mentioned. The closest social experiment that I can find is Communism, which mandates athiesm and drove Christianity underground. It still does in China. Yet even those systems are influenced by the constructs of a God whether they are aware of it or not. And, as you say, to
become a god. Perhaps facism as well in driving out all self initiative and belief for the means of the state.

Not very optimistic examples, but in my view, valid expectations of the end result of an athiestic state.

With the denial of God there is always a denial in the fact that we are influenced by the Judeau-Christian laws. Once those laws are systematically stripped away the non believer becomes a god unto himself.
Your last paragraph depicts what I believe has been hollo-wood’s agenda for many years now. When we study the industry’s exploits during the past 3 decades or so we find that society has been changed through their design: God out; godlessness in. Lately, as with the communist experiment, they have learned that it is easier to pollute the Belief rather than to eradicate God.

…sadly, they are gaining grounds…

Maran atha!

Angel
 
You mean in thinking that God speaks to George?
You - And yet there is a man who says that God speaks to him, who has invented a war that has killed 4,000+ American soldiers. So if we are to trust this, it is God’s plan that these 4,000 have lost their lives.

Bush invented the war? Look, we can take this to another thread.

And…Does God ever speak to you?
 
The Church has never taught that unbaptized infants do not go to heaven nor that they go to hell. It has also never taught that babies are destined for Limbo (a place of peace unknown to us).

The idea of Limbo was simply a theory, not a dogmatic teaching. Its misrepresentation by individuals from inside/outside of the Church is exactly the reason for the teaching authority of the Church. Truth does not speak with opposing voices but with one authoritative voice. St. Paul states “I write you this without haste in the case that I might be delayed. Know this first of all that you might know how to behave in the household of the Lord, the foundation of Truth, the Church.”

This is why the Church does not and cannot dogmatically teach error on points of faith and morals (MT 16). This is not to say that there aren’t individuals within the Church who try to advance personal agendas. After all, we all have a Judas in our midst.

For instance, many Protestant assemblies used to prohibit unbaptized children from being buried in their cemeteries. They were buried in areas outside of cemeteries in what was considered to be unconsecrated ground, as not to taint the baptized remains of others nor where they were buried. Who withheld their baptism? Was it God? No! Was it the Holy Spirit? No! Was it the Church? No! It was Protestant doctrine and those who followed it.

It makes me recall Sacred Scripture “Jesus became indignant with them (the Apostles) saying ‘Keep not the little children from me for theirs too is the kingdom of God.’”

The Church does not teach that non-Catholics are destined for hell. It amazes me how self-directed society has become. “The great thinkers” seem to be fearfully self-conscience on an unconscience level.

The Church does not judge the eternal placement of souls. The Church is His bride, not the groom. Those judgments are for the last day…not today (as taught by Paul). Yet, the words of Ignatius (107 AD) within 70 years of Christ’s crucifixion describe the Church as singularly Catholic (in writing), so must her Truth be singular.

What the Church actually teaches is that all grace on earth flows through the Catholic (Universal) Church (just as it used to do through Judaism for that was with whom God had made His Covenant). Christ Jesus satisfied the Old Covenant and established His New Covenant with His glorious bride, the Church. She speaks with, through, and for her husband, the Christ.

So, all of those who are saved are saved through the Catholic Church to which Christ is conjugally joined in his body, blood, soul, and divinity (the Eucharist), in which the fullness of His truth and his grace flows. We are only fully joined to Him when we partake of His true flesh and blood as He commanded. So, all grace (and thereby, salvation) flows through the bride to which he is joined (the two shall become one), the Catholic Church on earth.

We, as Chrisitans are bound by the sacraments of God. Yet, He who is God is bound by nothing. And thank goodness for that blessing because by the same logic His mercy is also bound by nothing. The thief on the cross comes to mind. So the Church does not judge the souls of individuals, but it is the conduit for their salvation as stated in Sacred Scripture.

As to science, the Catholic Church invented the University. The very word resigns itself to the “Universality of Truth”. It sprang from the monestaries that became to crowded with laymen studying under the clergy. More scientific discovery has originated in Catholic institutions and from Catholic thinkers than any other source. Medicine, seismology, and genetics are 3 that immediately come to mind. Individuals like St. Augustine, St. Thomas Acquinas, etc. have forever changed the course of philosophical study with their “revelations”.

The Church doesn’t teach that evolution doesn’t exist.But the form of evolution that is often propugated cannot be reconciled with science. But genetic research has identified that all humans are “factually” originating from a single pair of individuals (male and female) rather than lower species. HMMM…sounds like Adam and Eve to me.

The Big Bang contains truth but falls short of absolute Truth. It theorizes that from a void sprang forth the universe in a surge of outward liberation of energy, matter, and anti-matter. The result was the Cosmos. Science attributes the action to a logical principle known as “Cause and Effect”. So far so good, but then there is a snag in the logic of the “enlightened ones”. Cause and Effect as a principle demands the identification of both. So, what was the first object (that, by its very nature, disproves a non-existential void) that was “effected”? What “Cause” first “Effected” what “object” which cannot exist in a void? You see, another law of science (not a theory) is that nothing can be produced from nothing (mass and matter requires substance).

Genesis says 6 days of Creation. Well, without a sun or moon for solar/lunar measure that could be billions of years (“To God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day”). If you follow the order of Creation in GN you will see it matches general evolutionary theory. Let us also be intellectually honest and admit that God “dumbed down” Creation for us quite a bit; being quite nearly morons in comparison to God. The Church in her pursuit of Truth acknowledges science as a tool for man to understand and manipulate his environment. But, just as with free will, it can be abused as is so obvious in our society.

The rest must be left up to faith. To those who have no faith in the Church (the bride of Christ) I offer them my prayers and my sorrow for they provide themselves with no hope; not through an error of the Church (the bride of Christ) and her Truth but by an error of man. We have so many.

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter
 
I guess this is one of those rational arguments that has no defined answer. The more I read about sociobiology the less I can support morals or ethics based on genetics. While some(few) behaviors have a selectable advantage, many other human traits do not.
What have you read about morals and genetics that wasn’t from the perspective of believers? This supposed problem you are talking about about behaviors and selectable advantage is not a problem with their theories at all, and has been thoroughly covered.
Plus, if morals and ethics were genetically based or even brain structurally based then we would not need laws or protection from ourselves. The complexity is enormous and is at once, in reality, a step forward and a step back. I mean one human is showing complex altruistic and moral behaviors and the next human is totally devoid of them or at least severely lacking them.
This is false. Humans aren’t all the same, but as a group there are overall some similar interests. You try to make it out to be that there are equal number of altruistic and moral people and an equal number of humans totally devoid of them. I don’t think this is true at all. Yes, some people have antisocial personalities and the like, but most do not. If everyone were mindless automatons with a form of morality that was strictly followed, then yes, we wouldn’t need laws. But we aren’t mindless automatons (at least to us, it seems that way).
 
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