Catholic Traditon vs Science - are we looking deep enough

[buffalo]

jcrichton;3692110:

Could you cite a passage in the Holy Scriptures were it is found that the Holy Spirit can be defined by our own particular whims?/QUOTE]

I never defined the Holy Spirit.

Your posts are like a mouse always squeezing into the smallest cracks. Is this the way you dialogue with your students?

 

[drpmjhess]

drpmjhess;3692621:

Your posts are like a mouse always squeezing into the smallest cracks. Is this the way you dialogue with your students?

Absolutely not! We explore cracks and the whole house.

 

[anthony022071]

No, not scientism; theology permeates my perspective, and theology that’s in dialogue with a world more recent than the twelfth century. The church that cannot change is moribund.

Much of modern theology undermines Catholic doctrine,since it takes modern doubt as it’s point of departure.

The Church should not and cannot change it’s doctrines to be more acceptable to modern secular society. That leads to heresy.

The Church fathers understood the Church of Rome and the faith of Rome to be an immovable Rock.

St. Cyril of Alexandria (c. 424):
“He [Christ] promises to found the Church, assigning immovableness to it, as He is the Lord of strength, and over this He sets Peter as shepherd.”
(Cyril, Comm. on Matt., ad loc.)

St. Fulgentius of Ruspe (A.D. 465-533):
“That which the Roman Church, which has the loftiest place on the earth, teaches and holds, so does the whole Christian world believe without hesitation for their justification, and does not delay to confess for their salvation”
(Letter 17, 21, A.D. 519).

St. Theodore the Studite of Constantinople (759-826)
writing to Pope Leo III:
“Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven.”
(Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)

St. Maximos:
“How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter & Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate …even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome.” (Maximus, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)

 

[drpmjhess]

The Church fathers understood the Church of Rome and the faith of Rome to be an immovable Rock.

I said “The church that cannot change is moribund.”

If the Church were not open to change (which, thank fully it is), the Inquisition would still be in force, Malleus Maleficarum would be taught in science classes, we would be having weekly witch burnings, the Mass would not be in the vernacular, we would still be marching to the Crusades in the Middle East (oh, right, I forgot – Bush says we are!), we would not have female altar servers, our cosmology would still be geocentric, etc., etc.

Have no fear – change can be good. Last weekend my second-grader celebrated his First Holy Communion along with his class, and our lively and vibrant parish has 35 new communicants!

Petrus

 

[anthony022071]

I said “The church that cannot change is moribund.”

If the Church were not open to change (which, thank fully it is), the Inquisition would still be in force, Malleus Maleficarum would be taught in science classes, we would be having weekly witch burnings, the Mass would not be in the vernacular, we would still be marching to the Crusades in the Middle East (oh, right, I forgot – Bush says we are!), we would not have female altar servers, our cosmology would still be geocentric, etc., etc.

Have no fear – change can be good. Last weekend my second-grader celebrated his First Holy Communion along with his class, and our lively and vibrant parish has 35 new communicants!

Petrus

I said the faith of Rome is immovable,meaning the doctrines.

The Inquisition was put into effect to prevent lynch mobs and secular authorities from doing unjust executions. It was the secular authorities that punished people. The witch burnings were likewise done by secular authorities and lynch mobs. The Crusades happened at a time when the Muslim empire was a real threat to Europe and was persecuting the Church of Jerusalem. Europeans did not view war as instrinsically evil. The Church never used the Malleus Mallificarum as a science textbook. The geo-centric cosmology of the Middle Ages came from Ptolemy,not from Church doctrine.

 

[DLC]

We should resprct traditions but never make them binding or doctrinal unless they agree withe Bible. This is how some of the Spostolic understood them. The Bible must judge the truth of a tradition and not any church.

 

[anthony022071]

We should resprct traditions but never make them binding or doctrinal unless they agree withe Bible. This is how some of the Spostolic understood them. The Bible must judge the truth of a tradition and not any church.

The Bible can’t judge anything. People judge what the scriptures mean. Paul said that the pillar and foundation of the truth was the Church. As for scripture,he said that it was useful for instruction,not that it contained everything that pertained to Christian doctrine. The Church Fathers belonged to the Catholic Church,and they accepted that there were holy traditions that were not contained in scripture.

 

[jcrichton]

We should resprct traditions but never make them binding or doctrinal unless they agree withe Bible. This is how some of the Spostolic understood them. The Bible must judge the truth of a tradition and not any church.

…here’s the thing… the Catholic Church is not just “any church;” she is the Church Founded by Christ Jesus (Mt 16:18). And the Apostles understood that it was the Church, not the Holy Scriptures, that contained the binding and doctrinal teachings handed down by Jesus (1 Tm 3:15; Eph 3:10); as Jesus had made it clear to them that it is His Church that has been endowed with His Authority (Mt 16:19; 18:17-18), not the individual person or the Holy Scriptures.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[DLC]

If the Bible can not judge anything what about this passage.
Heb 4:12-13
2 For the word of God isliving andactive and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able **to judge **the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
NASU

 

[veritashunter]

---

We should resprct traditions but never make them binding or doctrinal unless they agree withe Bible. This is how some of the Spostolic understood them. The Bible must judge the truth of a tradition and not any church.

---

The idea of “any church” immediately contradicts Sacred Scripture in that it assumes the existence of “many churches”. The Church is the bride of Christ and his embodiment on earth therefore there can be only one true Church. Otherwise, Christ has several bodies making him polytheistic and several spouses making him a polygamist.

Next, Sacred Scripture states that “the bullwork and foundation of all truth is the church, the household of the living God.” Note that it did not say “churches” and it did not state that Sacred Scripture is the foundation of truth…rather that the Church defines truth and that truth rests on the Church (the foundation of truth).

This is especially true when understanding that the Canon of Sacred Scripture was defined by the Catholic Church. Two of the criteria utilized to judge the Canonicity of Sacred Scripture were that no texts that were written after the death of the last living apostle (John) were included and another was that the texts must have been used in the Celebration of the Mass/Divine Liturgy of the Holy Catholic Church…that’s right…the One Holy Catholic and “Apostolic” Church.

Paul also states that others would come and try to pervert and change the message of the Gospel and instructed us to “hold fast to all of the traditions that have been passed on to you whether by my words or letters.” So how can we know what those Traditions were if they were not listed in Sacred Scripture? Simple, by the power of the Holy Spirit within the bride of Christ, the Church.

This states that the Church must have an equal view of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition in light of the Church being the foundation and judge of truth. This is because the Church is the spouse of Christ conjugally joined to him by truly sharing Himself with us through His flesh and blood (the Eucharist). The Bible is an expression of the truth (the Word Made Flesh) that is transmitted through the spouse of Christ, the Church.

This is true because Sacred Scripture is a product of the Church as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, many fundamentalists, Protestants, and Evangelicals believe the converse is true…that the Church is somehow rather a product of Sacred Scripture. But there was a Church (singular and Apostolic) before the Gospels were even penned.

Between the time of Christ’s crucifixion and the authorship of the Gospels the Church existed fully yet the Bible did not (except for the Old Testament). But during that time Christians were under the New Covenant and New Promise but without a New Testament. Therefore, the Church (as the embodiment of Christ on earth and the spouse of Christ) was (as Sacred Scripture states) the foundation and bullwork of all truth.

In support of this we see in MT 18 the following “If your brother sins against you go to him and speak about it. If he refuses you go get two or three others to establish the facts of the matter. If he refuses them as well then go to Church. If he refuses even the Church treat him as a Gentile or tax collector. Whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

This testifies to the authority of the singular earthly Apostolic Church in all matters of faith and morals. With this in mind please consider that a Methodist, Baptist, and a Presbyterian have an struggle with one another. Who do they go to as “the Church” to arbitrate the matter? They do not have a singular earthly authority uniformly over the three of them to settle such a dispute so they cannot be the true Church nor the true authority.

This is what Sacred Scripture states…no more…no less. The Church is the foundation of truth and it judges the Canonicity of both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

Yours In Christ,

Veritashunter

 

[anthony022071]

If the Bible can not judge anything what about this passage.
Heb 4:12-13
2 For the word of God isliving andactive and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able **to judge **the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
NASU

Is the Bible “living and active”?
There is the Word of God as written down in scripture,and there is the living and abiding Word of God as it is taught by the Catholic Church. The Church existed before the books of the New Testament were written. And it was the Church that decided what the canonical books were.

 

[jcrichton]

If the Bible can not judge anything what about this passage.
Heb 4:12-13
2 For the word of God isliving andactive and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able **to judge **the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
NASU

Compare with St. John 1:1-14 and Apocalypse 1:13-18; 19:11-15: Christ is that Word!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[DLC]

Q. What do you do when your traditions disagree with the Bible? What will win out?

 

[veritashunter]

Q. What do you do when your traditions disagree with the Bible? What will win out?

Dear DLC:

Your logic assumes that the Bride of Christ (the Church) as the author of Sacred Scripture (inspired by the Holy Spirit) wrote down for men the love of her heart which is her spouse Christ Jesus (the Word made Flesh) in Sacred Scripture to share with us for our benefit. Then, individual members of the Church (sinners only made perfect by the grace of God flowing through the bride of Christ) have the self-appointed authority to individually self-determine what she (the Church) meant when she expressed her love of Christ Jesus in the written Word.

And then, to ignore the teachings of 2,000 years of continuous Apostolic Tradition inspired by the Holy Spirit traced back to the very Apostles (“he who rejects you rejects me”) and Christ Jesus himself. In other words…Protestantism.

Interesting premise! It sort of supposes that individuals know Sacred Scripture better than the author of Sacred Scripture (the Church as inspired by the Holy Spirit). Christ has conjugally joined himself to His spouse (the Church) physically in the intimacy of His body and blood (the two shall become one) in the Eucharist.

If you are married and faithful to one another…does another man know your spouse better than you or do you know the will of Christ better than his own spouse (the Church)? This is not very likely.

Especially in light of Sacred Scripture stating in the New Testament (the New Covenant with His bride, the Church) “there is no personal interpretation of the Word of God, for nothing good ever came from the knowledge of man, but only from that written upon the hearts of men by the Holy Spirit”.

Many non-Catholic “traditions” believe that they understand Christ Jesus better than the spouse of Christ (His embodiment on earth) especially in non-denominational and fundamentalist circles.

Sacred Scripture also entreats the Church as the arbitrator of all truth in MT 18 “if the refuse even the church treat them as you would a Gentile or tax collector (anathema)”. In other words, of no regard. “Whatsover you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Note that Sacred Scripture didn’t say churches (plural). It didn’t say take a vote of those assembled at the local congregation. It didn’t say to figure it out on your own or with any number of people. It said the church (singular) meaning singular authority…not shared. Christ has but one spouse.

Also we see St. Paul state "I soon seek to visit you yet I am writing you in the case that I should be delayed know this first of all, how to behave in the household of the Lord which is the Church, the foundation and bullwork of all truth.

The only way that one knows the spouse (and will) of another better than the other spouse is if you are an adulterer with one or the other…Scripturally speaking, of course. And this would assume that the parties are willing to involve themselves in the act. Neither Christ, nor His bride (the Church) can do this because they are eternally united in and “share one baptism, partake of one loaf, and are part of one body” and one Ressurrection through the fidelity of He who is God.

The Church is faithful to her spouse, Christ Jesus, for He is literally part of her and eternally faithful to His Word.

Yours in Chirst,

Veritashunter

 

[DLC]

When I sak what will win out when tradtions disagree withe Bible I am trying to say that The Bible always is to have authority over traditions. We judge traditions by the Word of God and never the other way around. Many verse atest to this truth. Deut 4:2
2 " You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you
NASU

Deut 12:32

32 " Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.
NASU

Josh 1:7-8
7 "Only be strong and very courageous; be careful to do according to all the law which Moses My servant commanded you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, so that you may have success wherever you go.
NASU

Prov 30:6
6 Do not add to His words
Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.
NASU

Isa 8:20
0 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
NASU

Rev 22:18-19

18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
NASU

2 Tim 3:15
5 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NASU

Notice that Timothy only need the Word of God in order to find salvation through faith alone in Christ, 2 Tim 3:15. Any tradition or teaching that does not agree with the Bible is incorrect and the Bible gives us warning about this. We are not to add to the Bible or subtract from it. Notice in the verses above the whole of Scirpture is in view. Starting with the Mosaic Law, then on to the Books of History, then to the Prophetic books, then Revelation. We are not to add or subtract from the Bible. The Apocrypha has too many errors in it to be the inspired Word of God.

 

[jcrichton]

When I sak what will win out when tradtions disagree withe Bible I am trying to say that The Bible always is to have authority over traditions. We judge traditions by the Word of God and never the other way around. Many verse atest to this truth. Deut 4:2
2 " You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you
NASU

Deut 12:32

32 " Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it.
NASU

Josh 1:7-8
7 "Only be strong and very courageous; be careful to do according to all the law which Moses My servant commanded you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, so that you may have success wherever you go.
NASU

Prov 30:6
6 Do not add to His words
Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.
NASU

Isa 8:20
0 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
NASU

Rev 22:18-19

18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
NASU

2 Tim 3:15
5 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NASU

Notice that Timothy only need the Word of God in order to find salvation through faith alone in Christ, 2 Tim 3:15. Any tradition or teaching that does not agree with the Bible is incorrect and the Bible gives us warning about this. We are not to add to the Bible or subtract from it. Notice in the verses above the whole of Scirpture is in view. Starting with the Mosaic Law, then on to the Books of History, then to the Prophetic books, then Revelation. We are not to add or subtract from the Bible. The Apocrypha has too many errors in it to be the inspired Word of God.

Are you confusing Sacred Tradition with doctrinal traditions which reject the Holy Scriptures?

The Holy Scriptures were not the only source for the Teachings of Jesus–as a matter of fact, there were very few passages which Jesus quoted throughout the Gospels.

If you study the Epistles you will find that the writings were addressing very specific issues (including heresies) which arose after Jesus’ Ascension–from her infancy, the Church met with those who would deny Jesus and the Sacred Writings. Peter had to address this very issue as he attests that all of the Sacred Writings are Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The heresies and the convoluted doctrines that followed do not negate the validity of Sacred Traditions which were, for the better part of twenty years after Christ’s Ascension, the one way by which the Gospel was preached. To assume that once the Gospels were written that they became the modus operandi of the early Church is to be blinded by today’s self-appointed standards: the Sacred Writings were never mass produced as attested by the Epistles themselves (…read this letter to the other churches… was one of Paul’s instructions to those he originally addressed); it is also attested by the language used: as I teach/preach; when we preach; we preach only one Gospel… this is very indicative that most of the function of the Apostles and their discisples were of an oratory manner–not simply reading from the Old Testament and the Epistles they could get their hands on…

This fact is also demonstrated by the Holy Scriptures as new terms are introduced and references to the Sacred Traditions is made.

As far as your devotion to Luther and his hand-written “faith alone,” following the blind will lead you into darkness!

Maran atha!

Angel