Catholic Truth

[ManRay]

Do not take offense! - I’m not accusing - I’m asking!
How does a Catholic reconcile claims of truth, benevolence, and love in relation to what seems to be (historically speaking) an endless stream of vagaries, atrocities, confusion, and what anyone would claim to be as nothing less than evil? Whether it be the holocaust, the inquisition, molestation cover ups the slave trade etc…i.e. There are actually papal bulls that sanctioned slavery. How does the Catholic reconcile this, and why does it seem that the church who is allegedly in sole possession of this ‘truth’ seem not to be able to recognize this truth in real time??? One of the arguments that I’ve heard is that as soon as the church realized it was wrong (or accepted that is was) then it made the necessary corrections - and ‘poof’ -the gates of hell did not prevail. This seems like a strange concept to juxtapose with a church that is supposedly already in possession of this truth, and authority?? Don’t you think? I’m constantly called a moral relativist by the religious, but it seems that the church is super guilty of moral relativism. When it was cool to own slaves - it supported it. When the nazi’s came to power it didn’t really lift a finger, and one could completely argue that the ghettoization of the jews was largely in part because of it. Why didn’t the church know what the truth was, when it claims it has always been in possession of it? I was visiting the holocaust museum on line and came across this photograph which completely freaked me out: This is on the holocaust museum website:
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There are tons of these…
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Does it bother any Catholics that Ratzinger was a Hitler youth?

 

[The_Wizard]

Does it bother any Catholics that Ratzinger was a Hitler youth?

Not at all! One of the greatest teachings of the Catholic Church is forgiveness. The most evil person you can think of can become the most holy of saints if they are truely sorry for their sins and ask for forgiveness.

 

[poptown]

Catholic Church is the most trustworthy on this earth, period.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I think if he was not a Hiltler youth, he would not have survived to be Pope.

 

[ManRay]

Not at all! One of the greatest teachings of the Catholic Church is forgiveness. The most evil person you can think of can become the most holy of saints if they are truely sorry for their sins and ask for forgiveness.

Never called Ratzinger evil…hmmmm - So Hitler could have become a saint? That’s wild stuff.

 

[ManRay]

I think if he was not a Hiltler youth, he would not have survived to be Pope.

I wish I had the ability to think this way sometimes. It’s awesome

 

[bzkoss236]

You’re confusing the difference between a bad church and bad people. The hate and injustice you see in these things are not affiliated with the Church other than the fact that some of the people in the Church happened to be bad people who went against Church teaching. Bad things in the Church happen, but it isn’t the Church’s fault, it is the person’s fault. The supposed molestation “cover-ups” aren’t necessarily “cover-ups” as much as it is that it was a matter that the Church was to handle internally, similar to how misconduct within a company is first to be resolved within a company. Even sexual harassment claims within a company are filed and dealt with within the company first, for every individual case. In some cases this leads to someone getting fired, in other cases not. The Church was doing the same thing. Some of the molestation cases were proven to be false, and those that were true were handled. It is a terrible thing that it happened, but it isn’t the Church’s fault, it is the priests’ fault for even considering doing such an act. But the Church took the blame by many people, and the Church sought to resolve the problems.

There are also many people in this world that call themselves Catholics, but are not Catholic in their actions. We usually call them Non-practicing Catholics, or Cafeteria Catholics.

That is how I reconcile with it, by knowing it isn’t the Church that is at fault, but the members that act out against what the Church teaches.

 

[DCNBILL]

You’re confusing the difference between a bad church and bad people. The hate and injustice you see in these things are not affiliated with the Church other than the fact that some of the people in the Church happened to be bad people who went against Church teaching. Bad things in the Church happen, but it isn’t the Church’s fault, it is the person’s fault. The supposed molestation “cover-ups” aren’t necessarily “cover-ups” as much as it is that it was a matter that the Church was to handle internally, similar to how misconduct within a company is first to be resolved within a company. Even sexual harassment claims within a company are filed and dealt with within the company first, for every individual case. In some cases this leads to someone getting fired, in other cases not. The Church was doing the same thing. Some of the molestation cases were proven to be false, and those that were true were handled. It is a terrible thing that it happened, but it isn’t the Church’s fault, it is the priests’ fault for even considering doing such an act. But the Church took the blame by many people, and the Church sought to resolve the problems.

There are also many people in this world that call themselves Catholics, but are not Catholic in their actions. We usually call them Non-practicing Catholics, or Cafeteria Catholics.

That is how I reconcile with it, by knowing it isn’t the Church that is at fault, but the members that act out against what the Church teaches.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 13:24-30[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Man Ray, welcome to CAF.
Now, do you really think we havent heard these charges before–even by the the fallacious tactic of “buckshotting” a whole bunch of them together? That we havent seen those pictures before?

One would really think that the hitler jugend membership of teenage Joseph Ratzinger is an issue that has been posted and answered ad nauseam–but I suppose you think it is time to re-tenderize this particular dead horse?

1. He had no choice in the matter. Think of it as being drafted–he would not have been allowed to go to school if he hadnt at least nominaly joined.
2. He loathed it and everyone knew it. Even his troop leader allowed him to get away with 1-2 meetings attendence and that is all anyone can remember him doing
3. Yes there were “Brown Priests”–either formal Nazi party members or explicit sympathizers of one degree or another. Out of 3500-4000 catholic priests in the Reich, about 350 fell into this category. Now 10% or so is awful, but what is remarkable is that the majority (and ALL of the bishops-- one notorious Benedictine abbot excluded) resisted the call of National Socialism

 

[Polycarp1]

The Faith is perfect, the Faithful aren’t.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Never called Ratzinger evil…hmmmm - So Hitler could have become a saint? That’s wild stuff.

If he truly repented of the evil he had done, and worked tirelessly for the rest of his life to make amends for it. I doubt he could become a saint, but he could have at least achieved redemption.

Also:

You’re confusing the difference between a bad church and bad people. The hate and injustice you see in these things are not affiliated with the Church other than the fact that some of the people in the Church happened to be bad people who went against Church teaching. Bad things in the Church happen, but it isn’t the Church’s fault, it is the person’s fault. The supposed molestation “cover-ups” aren’t necessarily “cover-ups” as much as it is that it was a matter that the Church was to handle internally, similar to how misconduct within a company is first to be resolved within a company. Even sexual harassment claims within a company are filed and dealt with within the company first, for every individual case. In some cases this leads to someone getting fired, in other cases not. The Church was doing the same thing. Some of the molestation cases were proven to be false, and those that were true were handled. It is a terrible thing that it happened, but it isn’t the Church’s fault, it is the priests’ fault for even considering doing such an act. But the Church took the blame by many people, and the Church sought to resolve the problems.

There are also many people in this world that call themselves Catholics, but are not Catholic in their actions. We usually call them Non-practicing Catholics, or Cafeteria Catholics.

That is how I reconcile with it, by knowing it isn’t the Church that is at fault, but the members that act out against what the Church teaches.

 

[Ctomlin]

Catholicism is a wonderful church,

Yes like anyone else mistakes are made and will continue so, we are sinners.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

By the way, the same Papal bulls you mention condemn the slave trade, for enslaving innocent people (including pagans).

When “slavery” (forced lifetime labor) is condoned it was in the context of condemned criminals

 

[Armor_of_Light]

I wish I had the ability to think this way sometimes. It’s awesome

Thanks I think…(that was a compliment, right?)

I spent a lot of time over in Germany for work, and have many German friends. They do not mind talking about this dark period of their history. Most of their fathers and grandfathers lived through it, and all I can say is…horrible. What a horrible experience it must have been for them. Proud honest Germans…led by a madman. One guys dad was forced (and I do mean forced) to fly a fighter plane at the age of 15. Can you imagine that? All those German kids basically HAD to be Hitler youth, and of course some of them admired Hitler! He got people working again and the soldiers did look rather sharp in their uniforms…

Go over there and look through the cemetaries sometime. A lot of good people died for that madness. So sad.

 

[pablope]

Do not take offense! - I’m not accusing - I’m asking!

How does a Catholic reconcile claims of truth, benevolence, and love in relation to what seems to be (historically speaking) an endless stream of vagaries, atrocities, confusion, and what anyone would claim to be as nothing less than evil? Whether it be the holocaust, the inquisition, molestation cover ups the slave trade etc…i.e. **

 

[doormouse73]

Ratzinger was working for the late John Paul 2.

do you know about John Pauls youth at all?

its a funny old world isnt it…

that is what the holy spirit does… but you are acting like the scribes and pharisees as you go on posting your threads and posts…

 

[april32010]

Saint Maximilian Maria Kolbe O.F.M. Conv. , Saint Teresia Benedicta of the Cross O.C.D,Blessed Titus Brandsma, O.Carm.,and thousands of priests and religious died in the camps. you betray a deep ignorance in these matters if you insist on repeating these slanders.

 

[JDaniel]

Man Ray, welcome to CAF.
Now, do you really think we havent heard these charges before–even by the the fallacious tactic of “buckshotting” a whole bunch of them together? That we havent seen those pictures before?

One would really think that the hitler jugend membership of teenage Joseph Ratzinger is an issue that has been posted and answered ad nauseam–but I suppose you think it is time to re-tenderize this particular dead horse?

1. He had no choice in the matter. Think of it as being drafted–he would not have been allowed to go to school if he hadnt at least nominaly joined.
2. He loathed it and everyone knew it. Even his troop leader allowed him to get away with 1-2 meetings attendance and that is all anyone can remember him doing
3. Yes there were “Brown Priests”–either formal Nazi party members or explicit sympathizers of one degree or another. Out of 3500-4000 catholic priests in the Reich, about 350 fell into this category. Now 10% or so is awful, but what is remarkable is that the majority (and ALL of the bishops-- one notorious Benedictine abbot excluded) resisted the call of National Socialism

Lion:

Yes. And people should read up on the tortures Priests were put through. True, they weren’t as bad as many of the tortures they endured at Russian hands, but, none of us could have held up under them! And yet, the Catholic Church was instrumental in extracting many Jews from Nazi hands.

I don’t know what people expect from the church. It’s not as though the Church was an army. The Church consisted of lay people primarily, who had no weapons and no way to stop Hitler. When all the ingredients were present, worldwide, to form a just war, Hitler was removed. That Catholics, as mere citizens could have stopped him is pure stupidity.



God bless,
jd

 

[ManRay]

It seems that you guys are once again missing the point of my post. I know you know about these things, and still remain catholic (scary, but fine). My questions are centered around an organization that claims it has possessed a same truth, a same authority since Jesus…AND YET historically has breached every obvious moral absolute. If the church isn’t bad but the people in it are bad then fine, but this would be an inconsistent and illogical position in any other line of thinking (cognitive dissonance). It would seem to me that an individual would become cardinal, priest, or bishop in part because of knowledge. Where did the knowledge go? Why didn’t anyone clue them in? Sure it’s not the church - it’s the people in the church. That doesn’t make any sense, and is a real easy cop-out. There are papal bulls sanctioning slavery…and yet it isn’t the church it’s the people in the church. The Albigensian Crusade lasted 45 years, initiated by Pope Innocent (awesome irony) to expunge Catharism in some little french town. One of the Popes ambassadors was killed so the pope in not so many words ordered the imprisonment and killing of every Cathar for 45 years!!! Is the extermination of heretics (basically a person who doesn’t agree with you) just people in the church, and not the church? I’m not seeing a plausible reconciliation… I’m seeing sidestepping. If it was just people in the church, why did a pope ask for forgiveness of the church? Was he just talking about a few people? Really?

 

[Pilgrim1701]

The child Ratzinger had no choice with regard to the Hitler Youth, and deserted the army, which again, he was conscripted into.

As for the others, and particularly the photos you showed, they are disconcerting, but for every catholic prelate, you could find his protestant counter part as well. The Church’s position vis a vis the state is problematic, because the Church was battling fascist regimes that were determined to destroy it.
Other posters have broken down the figures of clergy that supported the Nazis.
When one considers how the Nazis dealt with dissenters, and there are famous examples, both catholic and protestant. Look at the protest of the Dutch clergy. If memory serves 3,000 Polish clergy were killed. It is a wonder people dared to oppose them at all. Thank God they did though.