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Struggling1
Guest
Anyway thank you for the response I’ll give this some thought. Have an excellent evening and sorry for being argumentative :/.
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No. Yes, I fear hell. But I’m not going to let myself be paralyzed with fear over some chance that I’m not of the elect. Why should it? I understand what the Church teaches, and God has factored in my free will in the mystery of my own election or reprobation. So while a lot of it is with God, it’s also just as much on me.
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curious_cath
Guest
Nobody can know that! Imagine there is a great planet in 10 million light years away. On that great planet there is a little rock that was flipped 10 million years ago to one side or the other. Now, you go to heaven if the rock is flipped one side up and you go to hell if the rock is flipped the other side up. Would you want to know which is the case? Well, you cannot. It is too far in time and space. Only God can.
Imagine, that everybody who have lived on earth or will ever live, has a little rock on that planet. The code is complete, everybody’s fate has been locked by her/his little piece of rock. But nobody has any hope or chance to ever figure it out. Too far in time and space. But God can travel there and turn around every little rock as He seems fit.
Therefore, do not seek the meaning of predestination. It is immaterial. It has zero impact on the fate of the universe or anything in it. Live your life fully and have faith. This is predestination.
Imagine, that everybody who have lived on earth or will ever live, has a little rock on that planet. The code is complete, everybody’s fate has been locked by her/his little piece of rock. But nobody has any hope or chance to ever figure it out. Too far in time and space. But God can travel there and turn around every little rock as He seems fit.
Therefore, do not seek the meaning of predestination. It is immaterial. It has zero impact on the fate of the universe or anything in it. Live your life fully and have faith. This is predestination.
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curious_cath
Guest
What does it mean for God to know something? Is this related to storing some kind of information someplace? Is there some system or code where this knowledge is recorded or accessed? Are we not using hopelessly human concepts of knowledge and information when we talk about God?
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:9)
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:9)
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Struggling1
Guest
I appreciate this a lot thank you. I’ll meditate on this. I’m sorry to have eaten up some of your time!
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curious_cath
Guest
What is obedience to God? Can you truly understand the subtleties of God’s will towards your action? Great saints of the Catholic Church did extraordinary things in their lives. Their understanding of God’s will was somewhat different from ours. They responded and were obedient according to their saintly calling. This could have included disobedience to superiors from time to time. Can you tell other people what is God’s plan for them? Is this possible/ necessary at all? Or discernment is coming in individuals ways?
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Elf01
Guest
It may not impact things on Earth, but it does impact my perception of God in a negative way.
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Struggling1
Guest
Thank you I hope there’s hope for me. I am trying.
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Latin
Guest
God bless you Porthos11 and God bless every readers of the CAF.Elf01:
Thomism is not double-predestination, but its theory makes it essentially equivalent to it. Because Thomism posits that God elects to heaven without consideration of foreseen merits, and then provides graces to secure the divine election, Thomists do not have a good explanation for reprobation. While they do not teach unconditioned positive reprobation as the Calvinists do (that God unconditionally reprobates to hell), they try to explain it as simply a non-election (unconditioned negative reprobation). But because outside of heaven and hell there is no third final state, this effectively equates Thomism with double-predestination. This is the main reason I cannot adopt it. I like its theory on predestination ante praevisa merita, but its take on reprobation is not acceptable to me.porthos11:
I don’t see the difference between not electing somebody and predestining them to hell.
Molinism, on the other hand, posits election and reprobation after foreseen merits or demerits, while still affirming God’s positive action in both electing and reprobating men.
And just so that it’s clear: reprobation is also Catholic teaching. I know people like to cite Catechism 1037 ( God predestines no one to hell.) but one can hardly squeeze in predestination and reprobation in a one-liner.
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If we study Predestination first we must know, on what ground the Church rejected that God saves everyone.
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WHAT IS GOD’S REASON HE DOES NOT SAVE EVERYONE?
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A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP James Akin answer the question.
Quote: Thomas Aquinas wrote, "God wills to manifest his goodness in men: in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of his mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them.
This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. End quote.
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Quote from Augustune: Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will. ST I:23:5. End quote.
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SUMMARY
On a selected people God shows His mercy by chosen them to heaven, and on the rest of the people to show His Justice, chosen them to eternal sufferings in the pains of hell for all eternity.
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ON THE ABOVE GROUND the Church REJECTED that God saves everyone.
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As we see above, the Church rejected God saves everyone on the ground that God is responsible for He throws people to hell.
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Latin
Guest
Continuation
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Then came the Molinists and instead of to correct the above mistake by teaching; God saves everyone, with another mistake, they trying to shift the responsibility (for people end up in hell) from God to His creations.
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CATHOLIC ANSWERS Molinism
Quote: Molinists, by their undue exaltation of man’s freedom of will, seriously circumscribe and diminish the supremacy of the Creator over His creatures, so that they destroy the efficacy and predominance of grace and make impossible in the hands of God the infallible result of efficacious grace.
For, they argue, if the decision ultimately depends on the free will, whether a given grace shall be efficacious or not, the result of the salutary act must be attributed to man and not to God.
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But this is contrary to the warning of St. Paul, that we must not glory in the work of our salvation as though it were our own (I Cor., iv, 7),
and to his teaching that it is Divine grace which does not only give us the power to act, but “worketh” also in us “to will and to accomplish” (Phil., ii, 13);
it is contrary also to the constant doctrine of St. Augustine, according to whom our free salutary acts are not our own work, but the work of grace.
The consideration of these serious difficulties leads us to the very heart of Molina’s system, and reveals the real Gordian knot of the whole controversy. End quote.
www.catholic.com
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Continue
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Then came the Molinists and instead of to correct the above mistake by teaching; God saves everyone, with another mistake, they trying to shift the responsibility (for people end up in hell) from God to His creations.
.
CATHOLIC ANSWERS Molinism
Quote: Molinists, by their undue exaltation of man’s freedom of will, seriously circumscribe and diminish the supremacy of the Creator over His creatures, so that they destroy the efficacy and predominance of grace and make impossible in the hands of God the infallible result of efficacious grace.
For, they argue, if the decision ultimately depends on the free will, whether a given grace shall be efficacious or not, the result of the salutary act must be attributed to man and not to God.
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But this is contrary to the warning of St. Paul, that we must not glory in the work of our salvation as though it were our own (I Cor., iv, 7),
and to his teaching that it is Divine grace which does not only give us the power to act, but “worketh” also in us “to will and to accomplish” (Phil., ii, 13);
it is contrary also to the constant doctrine of St. Augustine, according to whom our free salutary acts are not our own work, but the work of grace.
The consideration of these serious difficulties leads us to the very heart of Molina’s system, and reveals the real Gordian knot of the whole controversy. End quote.
Molinism
Molinism, the name used to denote one of the systems which purpose to reconcile grace and free will. This system was first developed by Luis de Molina, and was...
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Latin
Guest
Continuation
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The Molinists has other crucial mistakes:
They fail to recognize, God is the One who controls our free will by His program He has planted into our memories.
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Furthermore:
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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God operates in our will by His program in our memories, of course this program includes our limited free will as well, only God has absolute free will, and those who are already in heaven, because their free will is in 100% line with God’s will.
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Many Christian would be surprised if they would know, to go to Christ in order to be saved is NOT inside the borders of our free will.
This is of course also means, God is responsible for the salvation of the entire human race.
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John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.
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John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.
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CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church Simplified.
Explaining Justification
The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.
Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
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The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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OF COURSE BELIEVED BECAUSE GOD IS THE ONE WHO WORKS IN US …
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
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God bless you Porthos11 and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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The Molinists has other crucial mistakes:
They fail to recognize, God is the One who controls our free will by His program He has planted into our memories.
.
Furthermore:
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
.
Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.
.
CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
.
God operates in our will by His program in our memories, of course this program includes our limited free will as well, only God has absolute free will, and those who are already in heaven, because their free will is in 100% line with God’s will.
.
.
Many Christian would be surprised if they would know, to go to Christ in order to be saved is NOT inside the borders of our free will.
This is of course also means, God is responsible for the salvation of the entire human race.
.
John 6:65; … no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.
.
John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.
.
CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church Simplified.
Explaining Justification
The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.
Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
.
The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.
This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
.
John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
Acts 13:48; … As many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
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OF COURSE BELIEVED BECAUSE GOD IS THE ONE WHO WORKS IN US …
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”
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God bless you Porthos11 and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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curious_cath
Guest
God bless you too, dear Latin, and God bless all reader of this forum, as well!
I have read what you wrote me, although I don’t see it posted anymore. My problem was about obedience. Obedience to whom and what? We have a bunch of institutions and personalities inserting themselves between the believer and God, and they all demand obedience to themselves when they talk about obedience to God.
I have read what you wrote me, although I don’t see it posted anymore. My problem was about obedience. Obedience to whom and what? We have a bunch of institutions and personalities inserting themselves between the believer and God, and they all demand obedience to themselves when they talk about obedience to God.
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Latin
Guest
God bless you Curious Cath and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Thank you for your post.
I know what you mean. This is a question that many Christian asks.
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The way I see it:
If I obey God I automatically obey all whom I have to obey.
If my obedience to God and the obedience to some others are irreconcilable than always the others who are taking the back seat.
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God bless you Curious Cath and God bless every readers of the CAF.
Latin
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