Catholic V Protestant argument

[Mdock]

Hello all!

So I was at dinner tonight with some dear Protestant sisters , and we started talking about faith .

Long story short ( 4 hours later short ) I was being attacked for my Catholic faith, and being shot at constantly with questions on my beliefs-

As a 33 year old cradle catholic , I was able to stand my ground, but I also have room for improvement when it comes to returning fire , ha!

Here’s what I need help with - and please remember I will be bringing these answers back to my Protestant sisters -

Argument from them-

1-The Eucharist is not real -
I found enough bible verses to inialate that statement-

2- Every sin we commit is the same in God’s eyes. Saying a curse word is the same as murdering someone in God’s eyes ??? ( Lord have mercy)

3- Baptism is just tradition -

4- As long as we are “saved” we go to heaven if we believe in God and have asked forgiveness . It doesn’t matter what we have done as long as we are sorry. There is no purgatory - there is only heaven and hell.

5- It says no where in the Bible that you have to go to church. You don’t have to go to church on Sunday to keep Holy the Lord’s day.

6- how do Catholics prove Eucharistic miracles , Mary appearing , etc .

7- Mary was NOT Without sin only Jesus was. She was blessed and God found favor in her but she was just an ordinary girl.

8- the Bible says we are all saints ? Period?? She sent this to me after dinner :hugs:. IMG_0610.jpeg

9- There is no such thing as mortal and venial sin.

Ok my dear brothers and sisters-
Send me my ammunition!!!

 

[guanophore]

The Eucharist is not real

Maybe Jesus was just being facetious when He said “This is My Body” and “This is My Blood”? Did He give symbolic flesh and blood for our sins?

I think that non-believers in the Eucharist have a tough task to explain why those who rejected this Teaching from the Apostles were considered heretics in the early Church.

Every sin we commit is the same in God’s eyes. Saying a curse word is the same as murdering someone in God’s eyes ??? ( Lord have mercy)

If they really hold Scripture in such high esteem, then it is incumbent upon them to explain away the verses that demonstrate the opposite.

" But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. "
Luke 12:48

Why did both who did not do the Master’s will get a beating, when one did not know? We are all responsible for our sins, but those with more knowledge are more culpable.

Then there is John distinguishing between mortal and venial sins.

Baptism is just tradition

Technically speaking, the entire New Testament is Sacred Tradition, so this is true from that perspective. The Scriptures reflect what the Apostles believed and taught. The question is, why would they reject the words of Jesus regarding Baptism?

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

There is no purgatory - there is only heaven and hell.

How is it that nothing unclean can be in heaven, yet human beings are still attached to many sins at the time of death? One cannot say that everyone sins, and still maintain that we all have the purity to be in heaven at the time of death. There is a logical disconnect there.

 

[guanophore]

Mary was NOT Without sin only Jesus was. She was blessed and God found favor in her but she was just an ordinary girl.

The reason that our beliefs about Mary are so critical is exactly this - she was an ordinary girl. It means that we all have the potential to live without sin - by the grace of God, we can choose to live in purity. Mary is the new Eve, and as Eve was created without original sin, so she is. Again, it falls upon them to explain away what the early Church has believed about Mary being the new Eve.

the Bible says we are all saints ? Period??

All the letters of Paul are addressed to “the saints”…The way in which this term is used indeed applies to all the faithful. We are set aside by Christ to live as light and salt in the world. It is the same as the vessels in the OT were consecrated for use in the Temple, and were not used for any ordinary or mundane purpose. This is why it was such a sacrilege for invaders to steal the temple vessels and profane them. In the same way, the baptized are consecrated to the service of God. We are all called to become saints inwardly, so that our state reflects what we have been called to be.

how do Catholics prove Eucharistic miracles , Mary appearing , etc .

This is a good question, and fortunately, the Church is very rigorous in doing so. The real question is, why is this necessary?

It says no where in the Bible that you have to go to church. You don’t have to go to church on Sunday to keep Holy the Lord’s day.

This is another Sacred Tradition. It is true that the Scriptures are not specific on this point, and it is part of the practice of the Apostles that the Church meets on Sunday. There are scriptural references, but the fact that Protestant Churches today meet on Sunday is a reflection that they have accepted this Sacred Tradition.

Sounds like a very stimulating conversation. Keep up the good work!

 

[anon91549587]

I recently found out through the topic of spiritual warfare that the catergories of sin can help a priest and you discern the level of demonic attack .

Going for mass weekly along with the sacramentals work as minor exorcisms. Hence the infant baptism works as a minor exorcism against curses or hexes as well .

It also seems to me IMO that all miracles , all appearances of Mary , stories of Saints , are meant to bring us closer to Christ.

 

[anna]

HI, you know I was going to answer each one individually but I stopped. Tell whoever , that questions one through 9 that I do not need to load you up with ammunition. You, being a true Catholic should be able to answer each question without help. I have my answers from God, God bless you , peace in your heart

 

[Mdock]

This has nothing to do with me being a true Catholic - I merely am humble in knowing others have wisdom that I may not have . I am not a theologian. I am young and have not had the pleasure of ever having a discussion like I had at dinner , but I know many of my catholic brothers and sisters have - and so once again I am humble in knowing someone may be able to answer to the extent I cannot .

 

[Francis]

@Mdock

1-The Eucharist is not real -
I found enough bible verses to inialate that statement-

Mt 26:26-27; Mk 14:22,24; Lk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 11:24-25 … this is my body … this is my blood eg; Jesus never said this looks similar to by body . 1 Cor 11:26-30 … sinning against the body and blood. Jn 6:32-58 … long discourse on Eucharist

2- Every sin we commit is the same in God’s eyes. Saying a curse word is the same as murdering someone in God’s eyes ??? ( Lord have mercy)

No ,the Bible differently as in **1 John 5:16 If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin, you will ask, and God will give life to such a one—to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not mortal.**So there is difference between Mortal and venial sins

3- Baptism is just tradition -

No not tradition alone but a must Acts 2:38-39; Acts 16:15, 16:33, 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16 … suggests baptism of all, incl. children. Jn 3:5; Rom 6:4; Mk 16:16 … necessity of baptism. Col 2:11-12 … circumcision (normally performed on infants c.f. Lk 2:21; Gen 17:12) replaced by baptism. Acts 22:16 … baptism removes sin. 1 Pet 3:21 … baptism saves by water.

4- As long as we are “saved” we go to heaven if we believe in God and have asked forgiveness . It doesn’t matter what we have done as long as we are sorry. There is no purgatory - there is only heaven and hell.

Jn 20:22-23 … if you forgive … they are forgiven. Mt 18:18 … binding on earth and heaven. 2 Cor 5:18 … ministry of reconciliation. Jas 5:14-16 … forgiveness of sins, anointing of the sick, confession.

cannot be saved once once and for all as said in 1 Cor 9:27 … after preaching … I myself disqualified. 1 Cor 10:12 … thinks that he stands … lest he fall. Phil 2:12 … work out salvation with fear and trembling. Heb 4:1 … fear of failing to reach salvation.

Purgatory Lk 12:58-59; 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26 … temporary agony. Heb 12:6-11 … Gods painful discipline. Mt 12:32 … no forgiveness … nor in the age to come. 1 Pet 3:18-20 .purgatory (limbo?). 1 Pet 4:6 … preached to the dead. Rev 21:27 … nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Heb 12:23 … souls in heaven are perfect. Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:13-14 … extra suffering. 2 Mac 12:43-46 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.

 

[anna]

I did not mean to hurt your feelings and apologize if I did… You are 33 years old I am not that much older than you…The Eucharist, The Last Supper, braking of Bread, Drinking of Wine. ’ Jesus: '[ This is My Body, which will be given up for you " This is My Blood which will be Shed for you. ‘Do this in memory of Me’ At the Consecration of the Mass this becomes the Body and Blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. 2. God gave us the Commandments, there are grave sins,are they the same as me slapping someone, or torturing and murdering someone. NO Jesus was Baptized, did He need to be? He was without original sin…yet He was baptized to show us the Way… We go to church, on Sundays it is obligatory, for these are the laws of Mother Church, go back to when Jesus said ’ you are Peter and upon this Rock, I will build my church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it" and this applied to all the successors of Peter, who as the Church became so did the laws of the Church. Mary, our Blessed Mother who carried our Saviour , was born without original sin. She was not just an 'ORDINARY girl…The word of God applies to some, your faith applies to some…
You will know in your Heart…God bless and keep you and draw you close to His Merciful Heart.

 

[kainosktisis]

(1) John 6:25-69 & 1 Corinthians 11:17-34

(2 & 9) 1 John 5:16-17 (BibleHub)

(3) John 3:1-8 (BibleHub) when Jesus spoke to Nicodemus during the night.

(4) Jesus doesn’t agree so ask them who they’re going to believe - Jesus or them.

Matthew 25 (BibleHub): The Sheep & the Goats

https://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/25.htm

Romans 11:11-24: The Vine & the Ingrafted Branches (BibleHub):

https://biblehub.com/niv/romans/11.htm

(5) Exodus 20 (BibleHub): The 10 Commandments:

https://www.biblehub.com/niv/exodus/20.htm

8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

(6) “Science Tests Faith” (YouTube):


Eucharistic Miracles of Argentina (YouTube) in Spanish with English Subtitles:

NOTE: The Doctor giving the lecture was a professed atheist who’d come into the Church after witnessing all that he had.

(7) “The Immaculate Conception & Assumption” (Catholic Answers):

Immaculate Conception and Assumption | Catholic Answers Tract

“When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.”

“What Is the Immaculate Conception?”:

What is the Immaculate Conception? - Catholic Straight Answers

A persistent confusion seems to exist over the “Immaculate Conception.” Some people mistakenly think the term is related to Mary’s conception of Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. However, the Immaculate Conception is the belief that “the most … Continued

catholicstraightanswers.com

(8) Yes, we are, but not all saints do great works with what they are given:

Matthew 25 (BibleHub): The Parable of the Bags of Gold:

https://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/25.htm

Hope this helps.

 

[Francis]

@Mdock

5- It says no where in the Bible that you have to go to church. You don’t have to go to church on Sunday to keep Holy the Lord’s day.

not true

We need the Church Mt 16:18-19 – upon this rock I will build my Church

Mt 18:17 – if he refuses to listen even to the Church…

Mt 28:18-20 – go baptize and teach all nations

Mk 16:15-16 – go to whole world and proclaim gospel

Lk 10:16 – whoever hears you, hears me; rejects you, rejects me

Keep the Lords Day Sunday Ezekiel 20:20 and hallow my sabbaths that they may be a sign between me and you, so that you may know that I the Lord am your God.

6- how do Catholics prove Eucharistic miracles , Mary appearing , etc .

Matthew 17:3 Suddenly there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4 Then Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if you wish, will make three dwellings here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. so why not his Mother since she is the Mother of god Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. Mother Mary is without a single stain of original sin, throughout, so being the Mother of God, who is full of Grace, is most powerful intercessor , before God to prayer for us, we sinners. The Holy Spirit Himself is speaking through St Elizabeth and testifying about Mother Mary. . Jeremiah 31:22 How long will you waver, O faithless daughter (Eve)? For the Lord has created a new thing (New Eve as Jesus is the new Adam) on the earth: a woman (Mother Mary) encompasses a man (Jesus).

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean will enter Heaven, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. But when Jesus is born she had to be without Original Sin a pure vessel to contain Jesus in the womb Lord Jesus (GOD) had to be born in a women who is sinless.Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free (from sin)and she is our mother (MARY)

8- the Bible says we are all saints ? Period?? She sent this to me after dinner

we all are sinners 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

9- There is no such thing as mortal and venial sin.

[1 John 5:16If you see your brother or sister committing what is not a mortal sin , you will ask, and God will give life to such a one—to those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin that is mortal; I do not say that you should pray about that

1 John 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin , but there is sin that is not mortal. (venial sin mentioned in the bible)

1 Timothy 1:15 The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the foremost. St Paul call himself a foremost of sinners

 

[Dan_Defender]

6- how do Catholics prove Eucharistic miracles , Mary appearing , etc .

And how do Protestants prove that Jesus resurrected from the dead? Muslims deny it. For many things there is no proof, you have to have faith. If they want, they can see for themselves the miraculous Hosts that have been cherished and venerated in the Basilica of St. Francis in Siena, Italy for over 250 years.

 

[Cjbhoward]

As long as we are “saved” we go to heaven if we believe in God and have asked forgiveness . It doesn’t matter what we have done as long as we are sorry. There is no purgatory - there is only heaven and hell.

This demonstrates ignorance of our God & what heaven is. God is light & in Him there is no darkness. We’ve got a lot of darkness in us. If we stood in the actual presence of God the Father (heaven) the light of God will totally destroy that darkness & we would be no more.

To that affect God has given us the means, the way to be purified so that there is no darkness in us that we may stand face to face with the almighty. We can surrender to Him now & be purified in this reality, or in the next.

But we must first understand God is light. There is no darkness in Him & there can not be.

how do Catholics prove Eucharistic miracles , Mary appearing , etc

We don’t. At least I don’t. Whether you believe in them or not, is neither here nor there.

Mary was NOT Without sin only Jesus was. She was blessed and God found favor in her but she was just an ordinary girl.

Again, a complete misunderstanding of who Jesus is. I’m convinced if someone can not see who Mary is (exactly who the Church says she is) they’ll never recognize Jesus or His Church. That includes the second coming.

the Bible says we are all saints ? Period??

Well, she’s got to do some mental gymnastics to prove that one. The Bible does refer to believers as saints. But it refers to these believers over here, or those believers over there as saints. If she is saying she is over here, or over there… I guess she’s a saint in that sense, which is different than the way the Church means “Saint” which is to say we have proof this person is in heaven now.

It says no where in the Bible that you have to go to church. You don’t have to go to church on Sunday to keep Holy the Lord’s day.

Can they tell you where in the bible it says you should breath if you want to live? Where does it say to use the KJV and not the NAB? Where does it say to consider 2 Corinthians inspired, but not 3rd or 4th Corinthians.

Seriously, you should ask them to defend their tradition instead of always defending yours.

In the bible, Jesus says, “Unless you eat my flesh & drink my blood there is no life within you.” He said, “My flesh is true food & my blood is true drink.”

You can explain how your tradition makes sense of that. They can’t.

From the cross, he looked to his mother standing next to the disciple He loved & said, “Woman, behold your son.” Ask them, are they or are they not that disciple loved by Christ?

 

[Dorothy]

If it is possible to discuss these differences calmly with your friends then do so.
Be sure to pray beforehand.

And pray for them when you do intercessory prayer.

 

[DiZent]

I’ve had similar “arguments” from my Protestant co-workers. I can answer them, but not likely to change anyone’s mind. I prefer to start with what we have in common. 1. Belief that Jesus is the Son of God & he died on the cross to save me AND you. 2. The Bible is the inspired Word of God. I don’t know any Catholic who does not believe 1 and 2. The Mass, Sacraments, Mary, the Saints, etc., are practices (Scriptural evidence, instituted by Christ, passed on by the Apostles & Early Church Fathers). If, by their own words, ALL you need is to believe in Jesus as your Savior and profess with your mouth - every Catholic is SAVED. If practices (things you do) are works, then by their own words, you works will not gain or lose your salvation.

 

[semper_catholicus]

This is the thing I’ve found with Protestants. They always throw a million different things at you, and of course you can’t work that fast, and the you feel as though you don’t understand your faith well enough. It might take a while to get through all of these, but I could prbabaly help a little bit. No tonight though. God bless.

 

[HeDa]

Go through one question at a time with them. Use Scripture, early Church fathers up to recent documents by popes and other theologians. Dig deep into the history of things.

 

[Cathoholic]

OK Mdock.

You asked for a LOT on one thread.

This will take awhile. I am assuming you will stick this out (it will be long, but there ARE answers to all of these concerns).

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Cathoholic]

Objection number 1.

1-The Eucharist is not real

Jesus said “This IS my body”!

Was it Jesus’ body then and not now?

Are we to doubt Jesus?

(Let’s stop there for now and go deeper into the Eucharist with your follow-up questions).

 

[Cathoholic]

Objection number 2 . . . .

2- Every sin we commit is the same in God’s eyes. Saying a curse word is the same as murdering someone in God’s eyes ??? ( Lord have mercy)

The same sinful action by sinners (below).

Yet we see two different accounts based upon those sinners culpability . . .

Jesus in John 15 . . . .

JOHN 15:22 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

.

Why do they say all sins are alike?

Because one sin led to the fall of Adam and Eve.
But to subsequently say “all sins are the same” because of that does not follow logically.

Every sin we commit is NOT the same in God’s eyes.

 

[Vico]

…

9 - There is no such thing as mortal and venial sin.

KJV Actual Sin

• James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
• 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
• Matt. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

KJV Mortal SIn

• John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
• Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
• 1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
• John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
• Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
• Heb. 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.