Catholic versus catholic

[mark_a]

quote=Truthstalker;1684441]
I do not think Ignatius in his wildest dream imagined a situation as we have it today, nor that his statement necessarily applies today.

And that’s why Jesus established his Church. He knew the world and the Church could not remain the same until he comes again. He gave authority to the Church through apostolic succession.

That was then; this is now. In his day Catholic = catholic because all Christians were both, because by definition all Christians were members of the catholic church. This was before the development of a lot of things that turned the catholic church into the Catholic church as a defined structure. At the Council of Nicea for the first time the Church stated what it believed and stated what it did not believe, and after that there was the first possibility of heresy

Ignatius, at 100 AD, was long before Nicaea at 325 AD, and cannot be expected to be aware of issues that emerged long after his martyrdom.

So are you claiming Ignatius as your church father?

That’s like the Confederate States of America claiming the fathers of the United Sates of America as their own.

Has the Catholic Church changed Igatius’ meaning of the Eucharist too?

 

[Ave_Maria_1]

One cannot separate Christ and His Church! The Church, the Catholic Church, is the Mystical body of Christ.

Our Blessed Lord never told anyone to go and start their own church but now there are 40,000 protestant churches all claiming to be ‘the church’? they all have their own image of a Christ.

So how can we know the direction? We know because the Holy Spirit was promised to the Church which Our Lord founded on St. Peter and the Apostles. He gave His own authority to them and their successors. This does not mean ever successor has been a saint! Far from it. But the Catholic Church will last until the end of time of that truth we know.

The merits of Our Lord earned through His Sacrifice is extended to the world through the unbloody and ongoing Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. IT IS THE MASS THAT MATTERS! St. Pio said that the world could more easily lilve without the sun than without the Holy Mass… Graces to uphold the world flow through the Masses being offered around the world at every moment of every day.

Are those ‘outside’ the Church saved? The catechism tells us yes.
God gives every soul the means to be saved. Can I guarantee I am saved? NO! I might fall into mortal sin tomorrow and sever my ties with God and His grace.

Through Our Lord’s Sacrifice ALL souls have the means to redemption. But that is different than ‘being saved’. We are redeemed, yes, but our salvation still depends on our cooperation.
There is no ‘once saved, always saved’ and no new religion has the authority to make such a claim! St. Paul told us that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Our Lord told us that the way is hard and narrow and that the wide and easy road is the way to perdition.

For souls that never hear the Name of Jesus, salvation is still possible. The graces of Our Lord that flow through His church on earth can be applied to souls to live according to the natural law that is written on every heart.

We do not know why some souls must remain ignorant of Our Lord. We do not know why the Isrealites were a chosen people and the rest of the world left in the dark, so to speak. But we do know that God is infinite mercy and that all souls are dear to Him so we trust in that mercy that the means for salvation are available for every soul to accept or reject according to what is made known to them.

Ave Maria!

 

[Eden]

I don’t know why this is a difficult question. The “Catholic Church” referred to by the ECFs is the same Church with the name today.

The Catholic Church was a clear, visible “institution” from which one could be “expelled” if they advanced heretical beliefs:

“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,–in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,–and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed (Pope) Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” *Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200). *

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” *Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110). *

Notice in the above passage, the Eucharist is not symbolic and thus, can only be consecrated by a bishop or a priest ordained by a bishop.

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” *Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254). *

You are either in union with the visible, Catholic Church or you are not in His Church.

“Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy. But it is before all things necessary that they should profess in writing that they will observe and follow the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; in particular that they will communicate with persons who have been twice married, and with those who having lapsed in persecution have had a period [of penance] laid upon them, and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow** the dogmas of the Catholic Church…”** *Council of Nicaea I (A.D. 325). *

Follow dogmas of the Catholic Church? Where is Sola Scriptura?

“For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does** the name itself of Catholic**, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. (INTERJECTION: IS THIS NOT TRUE EVEN TODAY? THE PROTESTANTS ON THIS FORUM SAY THEY TOO ARE CATHOLIC, YET THEY WOULD NOT DARE POINT OUT THEIR OWN CHURCHES IF SOMEONE SHOULD ASK WHERE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH MEETS) such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church…Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church…For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church…for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you.” Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397)

It was throught the authority of the Catholic Church that St. Augustine got his faith in the gospel. Protestants who believe St. Augustine is Protestant, please take note!

 

[Damascus]

Claudius bishop of turin is a good example of a Catholic iconoclast, its a good read worth googling.

How nice of you to say.

Unfortunately its not going to prove what you would like it too.

It only proves that in spite of heretics the Church has chugged on and the heretics have not succeded in anything.Catholic is one thing. Everyone else is connected to us even if they dont want to be or realize it.

catholic is a non Catholic.

 

[The_Augustinian]

That’s like the Confederate States of America claiming the fathers of the United Sates of America as their own.

Well, to be fair, the CSA did consider themselves the heirs of the Founding Fathers, who were also secessionists.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

How is that relevant? There have been many heretical bishops in the history of the Catholic Church.

Was he excommunicated?

 

[Abiien]

Hi, nice to meet you guys
Im gonna join your family haha.

anyways…

If Jesus Christ is truly present in a church, making it therefore the Catholic Church, catholic Church, or Universal church.
All interchangable, in my opinion.
Then wouldnt it be reasonable to say that protestants are Catholic Churches as well?
I really find it hard to believe that Christians have been around 2000 some odd years and there has not been some radical church somewehre out there. I think now they just labels on them, and they grow. In my opinion, protestant churches are just as much part of the Catholic Church as Roman Catholic’s are…

My reasoning is: Jesus is present (maybe not in body, but in word) in those churches… I dont really see why it should matter what they teach, I think its dumb, and i was brought up methodist and then converted to catholic in a highly apathetic-to-Spirituality family… It doesnt make them totally in correct, but instead i think it makes them just as good; if one puts full trust into God they will not need to worry about the flesh for God will give them what ever they need, this ‘Religious Politics’ as i like to call it is just plain intruding on ones faith; it’s a distraction if anything… This is just from my experience, im just here to learn guys, May God bless you and Guide you to truth!!

-Chris

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Everyone else is connected to us even if they dont want to be or realize it.

catholic is a non Catholic.

How humble! I am impressed with your humility!!!
I’d argue with u and say we are all connected to Christ and we are all his body…
Not connected to a institution, but I digress that is another thread.

 

[Damascus]

Was he excommunicated?

I love it. Were you aware you can excommunicate yourself?

I bet this comes as a total surprise to you does it not?

Formally? What difference does it make. Look at these forums a bit longer and see the catholics who defy church teachings and tell me how you are making a point.

Judas was a reminder to us all that there will always be defiant persons in the body.

The point is when you chose to jettison the teachings of the Church you are Catholic in name only.

Excommunication is not a permanent state of affliction anyway unless that party wants it to be by continuing their defiance.

 

[Damascus]

How humble! I am impressed with your humility!!!

thanks!

I’d argue with u and say we are all connected to Christ and we are all his body…

**Thats what I said. Yep. All connected yet in a different way. **
Not connected to a institution, but I digress that is another thread.

Christs institution his Bride is what we are like it or not connected to. Sorry but Christ wins on this one.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Hi, nice to meet you guys
Im gonna join your family haha.

anyways…

If Jesus Christ is truly present in a church, making it therefore the Catholic Church, catholic Church, or Universal church.
All interchangable, in my opinion.
Then wouldnt it be reasonable to say that protestants are Catholic Churches as well?
I really find it hard to believe that Christians have been around 2000 some odd years and there has not been some radical church somewehre out there. I think now they just labels on them, and they grow. In my opinion, protestant churches are just as much part of the Catholic Church as Roman Catholic’s are…

My reasoning is: Jesus is present (maybe not in body, but in word) in those churches… I dont really see why it should matter what they teach, I think its dumb, and i was brought up methodist and then converted to catholic in a highly apathetic-to-Spirituality family… It doesnt make them totally in correct, but instead i think it makes them just as good; if one puts full trust into God they will not need to worry about the flesh for God will give them what ever they need, this ‘Religious Politics’ as i like to call it is just plain intruding on ones faith; it’s a distraction if anything… This is just from my experience, im just here to learn guys, May God bless you and Guide you to truth!!

-Chris

Hi Chris,
From my experience the best way to learn is by opening your heart and mind to scripture… God’s word is there, it’s our daily bread we should fulfill ourselves with it and he will fulfill us; heart, mind and soul.
Peace and Love,
His slave,
Simon

 

[Damascus]

Hi, nice to meet you guys
Im gonna join your family haha.

anyways…

If Jesus Christ is truly present in a church, making it therefore the Catholic Church, catholic Church, or Universal church.
All interchangable, in my opinion.
Then wouldnt it be reasonable to say that protestants are Catholic Churches as well?
I really find it hard to believe that Christians have been around 2000 some odd years and there has not been some radical church somewehre out there. I think now they just labels on them, and they grow. In my opinion, protestant churches are just as much part of the Catholic Church as Roman Catholic’s are…

My reasoning is: Jesus is present (maybe not in body, but in word) in those churches… I dont really see why it should matter what they teach, I think its dumb, and i was brought up methodist and then converted to catholic in a highly apathetic-to-Spirituality family… It doesnt make them totally in correct, but instead i think it makes them just as good; if one puts full trust into God they will not need to worry about the flesh for God will give them what ever they need, this ‘Religious Politics’ as i like to call it is just plain intruding on ones faith; it’s a distraction if anything… This is just from my experience, im just here to learn guys, May God bless you and Guide you to truth!!

-Chris

God be with you as well.

I cant make sense of your post. Are you practicing relativism?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I love it. Were you aware you can excommunicate yourself?

I bet this comes as a total surprise to you does it not?

Formally? What difference does it make. Look at these forums a bit longer and see the catholics who defy church teachings and tell me how you are making a point.

Judas was a reminder to us all that there will always be defiant persons in the body.

The point is when you chose to jettison the teachings of the Church you are Catholic in name only.

Excommunication is not a permanent state of affliction anyway unless that party wants it to be by continuing their defiance.

Any church could excommunicate me, as long as the Lord is with me that is truly all that matters… and hepromised he would be.

 

[Damascus]

Any church could excommunicate me, as long as the Lord is with me that is truly all that matters… and hepromised he would be.

Wonderful! I’ll take it a step further and say that he is with all.

Even if they reject things and defy his teachings, as some do not understand them- and until they do they are not accountable for their ignorance.

If they do get that knowledge and then reject it, that is another matter.

 

[Black_Knight_MI]

Any church could excommunicate me, as long as the Lord is with me that is truly all that matters… and hepromised he would be.

Well…now that isn’t exactly scriptural.

Didn’t St. Paul tell the Corinthians to excommunicate the immoral members from among them? 1st Corinthians 5:1-5.

And what about Acts 5:1-10, though that is an extreme case.

Excommunication is not just some temporal opinion, but an expression of a spiritual reality that is never administered lightly.

It by no means implies that God no longer hears you or isn’t with you, but that He is working now to bring you into obedience to Him. It’s discipline, just as any good father does.
Blackie

 

[4given]

Keep in mind the word is bride not “brides.” There is only ONE Church, and this Church was compared to a marriage in that we are then one flesh. As it is, as well, with Christ and His Church. - one flesh.

‘He who hears YOU hears ME’… in one voice, not many; and definitely not contradictory.

Think about it, 4given.

I know there is only one bride. I just have a different belief about it than you. I believe the bride includes every saved person regardless of how they’re dispersed around the world and what bodies of believers they attend. And Jesus knows exactly who is HIs and who isn’t.

 

[Abiien]

God be with you as well.

I cant make sense of your post. Are you practicing relativism?

Haha, Sorry if there was any confusion.

I wasnt exactly implying relativity, or i didnt mean to atleast.
What i was trying to say is, since the Word, which is God, is present in non Eucharist based churches, doesnt that make them partially truthful?
I understand Jesus sorta commanded us to take the Eucharist in rememberence of him…
Eucharist Being a Sacrament, if one denys it, does that mean theyre denying Jesus in whole, or what?
If someone doesnt get the eucharist theyre whole life, does that mean they die of ‘hunger’? Or does it even mean that they will die period?

I’m just confused as to why people argue over the differences in protestant’s and Catholics. ( seeing as protestants = protesting against Catholic faith, if im not mistaken? ) Besides the ‘religious political’ mumbo jumbo, one should inevitably have faith in God and all will be revealed. the 1st two commandments being 'Love God with all your heart mind body soul", “Love your neighbor as your self” .
Honestly what i just explained is what brought me to the Catholic Faith, and i trust in God to my fullest extent, and my point is, not everyone has theyre own truth, but God is the Word and the Word is the Truth, and the incarnate word is Jesus, and Jesus is the Life the Truth and the Way, if that is understood then aslong as Jesus is present in the church one should be fully capable of 100% truth, if all ‘religious politics’ are put aside (this si my theory)

God be with you,
Chris

Im still a teen, i have lots of learning to do!
May God bless you.

P.S. I was trying to say that Protestants are still part of the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ as well… they just **protest **against it, it doesn’t change who they are, and what they are on this Earth for. Which is to be Followers of Christ (christians)

Catholic = Universal
Protestants = Still catholic but protest against it ???
Not sure,
Thanks in Advance =)
hah

 

[mark_a]

Well, to be fair, the CSA did consider themselves the heirs of the Founding Fathers, who were also secessionists.

I stand corrected!!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The church (whatever that is) is the body of Christ, yes? So we know that if a particular person is saved, he must have been saved by Christ, right? Therefore, he must have been saved by the church. Therefore, there is no salvation outside the church.

Was the Church crucified for us ? No.​

Christ is the Saviour; & Christ saves the Church.

The Church can’t save a thing, not even herself: God - alone - can & does - nobody else, ever, in any sense, at all, does, can, will, would, could, or is able to.

To Him, Alone, & in all things, for ever, & not to the churches or the Church, nor to any other creature past, present, future, possible, or of any other sort whatever, be all the Glory in all things ! ##

 

[Atreyu]

Was the Church crucified for us ? No.​

Christ is the Saviour; & Christ saves the Church.

The Church can’t save a thing, not even herself: God - alone - can & does - nobody else, ever, in any sense, at all, does, can, will, would, could, or is able to.

To Him, Alone, & in all things, for ever, & not to the churches or the Church, nor to any other creature past, present, future, possible, or of any other sort whatever, be all the Glory in all things ! ##

Christ was crucified for the Church. His sacrifice was for for all, but only effective for many. Who is it effective for? The Church. When we enter Heaven, we will be in some way “married” to Christ. To be married to Christ we must be the bride of Christ, and what is the bride of Christ? The Church! If anyone - even someone who has never heard the name of Jesus in his life - receives eternal life, then he will have been saved by Jesus through the Church. There is no salvation outside of the Church.