Catholic view of Atonemnt?

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Can someone explain to me the Catholic view of the atonement and how it differs from protestantism? Do Catholics also hold to a satisfaction view of the atonement? According to wikipedia the atonement view of Aquinas is the view of the view of the RC church and is dogma. According to Aquinas “Christ bore a satisfactory punishment, not for His, but for our sins.”[18] The penance Christ did has its effect in paying the “debt of punishment” incurred by our sin. Aquinas argues that Christ’s death satisfies the penalty owed by sin,[11] and that it was Christ’s Passion specifically that was needed to pay the debt of man’s sin. Is this in line with modern RC teaching on the atonement?
 
Can someone explain to me the Catholic view of the atonement and how it differs from protestantism? Do Catholics also hold to a satisfaction view of the atonement? According to wikipedia the atonement view of Aquinas is the view of the view of the RC church and is dogma. According to Aquinas “Christ bore a satisfactory punishment, not for His, but for our sins.”[18] The penance Christ did has its effect in paying the “debt of punishment” incurred by our sin. Aquinas argues that Christ’s death satisfies the penalty owed by sin,[11] and that it was Christ’s Passion specifically that was needed to pay the debt of man’s sin. Is this in line with modern RC teaching on the atonement?
This blog has many articles on Penal Substitution, the Protestant view of the Cross, and why it is wrong. See this article for an introduction:
catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/07/atonement-according-to-scripture-more.html
 
Can someone explain to me the Catholic view of the atonement and how it differs from protestantism? Do Catholics also hold to a satisfaction view of the atonement? According to wikipedia the atonement view of Aquinas is the view of the view of the RC church and is dogma. According to Aquinas “Christ bore a satisfactory punishment, not for His, but for our sins.”[18] The penance Christ did has its effect in paying the “debt of punishment” incurred by our sin. Aquinas argues that Christ’s death satisfies the penalty owed by sin,[11] and that it was Christ’s Passion specifically that was needed to pay the debt of man’s sin. Is this in line with modern RC teaching on the atonement?
I agree with Aquinas 👍
 
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Can someone explain to me the Catholic view of the atonement and how it differs from protestantism? Do Catholics also hold to a satisfaction view of the atonement?
If by that you mean that God poured out all the wrath He had toward humanity since the beginning of creation for their sins upon Jesus on the cross, and that God “turned His back” on Jesus in doing so, no. This concept is a heresy of the Reformation.

Beloved St. Peter summarizes the Catholic view:

1 Peter 2:24-25
24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

I recommend you read the Catholic Catechism on this point, then bring any questions you have here. No one here will be able to represent the concept better than the Catechism does.
According to wikipedia the atonement view of Aquinas is the view of the view of the RC church and is dogma. According to Aquinas “Christ bore a satisfactory punishment, not for His, but for our sins.”[18] The penance Christ did has its effect in paying the “debt of punishment” incurred by our sin. Aquinas argues that Christ’s death satisfies the penalty owed by sin,[11] and that it was Christ’s Passion specifically that was needed to pay the debt of man’s sin. Is this in line with modern RC teaching on the atonement?
In general, I would not advise Wikipedia as an authorative source on Catholic doctrine.

Trust rather in those numbers next to the text, (18 and 11 above) will lead you to primary resources.

That being said, I do not see a contradiction in this statment.

One must also be mindful that the New Testament is written by Catholics, for Catholics, and there is nothing contained in it that is not Catholic.
 
But in the Catholic scheme does Christ have to pay some sort of debt, like that espoused by Aquinas? I know Trent was quite vague on the issue of the atonement. Did Christ have to be punished for our sins or is he just a sin offering? I just want to know how the Catholic view differs from penal substitution.
 
But in the Catholic scheme does Christ have to pay some sort of debt, like that espoused by Aquinas? I know Trent was quite vague on the issue of the atonement. Did Christ have to be punished for our sins or is he just a sin offering? I just want to know how the Catholic view differs from penal substitution.
OIC. Ok, Penal Substitution teaches that Jesus took our place, and was recieved the punishment due to us for our sins. This is considered a heresy because, if Jesus substituted Himself to pay our due, then He would be suffering eternally in Hell, which we all are in agreement He is not.

So He was neither a penal substitute, or just a "sin offering " (in the Levitical context) but somehow mystically bore our sins on the cross, expiating us.

1 Peter 2:24-25
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

1 Peter 3:18-19
8 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;

Heb 1:3
When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high…

Heb 10:11-15

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Jesus’ sacrifice is far superior to the sin offerings of the OT, becuase his single and once for all sacrifice allowed us to be purified and consecrated to God.
 
So He was neither a penal substitute, or just a "sin offering " (in the Levitical context) but somehow mystically bore our sins on the cross, expiating us.

But did Jesus have to pay a debt of punishment to God like Aquinas and Anselm say? Because according to Aquinas “Christ bore a satisfactory punishment, not for His, but for our sins.”[18] The penance Christ did has its effect in paying the “debt of punishment” incurred by our sin. How does this teaching compare to the catechism and the Council of Trent because both are very vague on this issue.
 
So He was neither a penal substitute, or just a "sin offering " (in the Levitical context) but somehow mystically bore our sins on the cross, expiating us.

But did Jesus have to pay a debt of punishment to God like Aquinas and Anselm say? Because according to Aquinas “Christ bore a satisfactory punishment, not for His, but for our sins.”[18] The penance Christ did has its effect in paying the “debt of punishment” incurred by our sin. How does this teaching compare to the catechism and the Council of Trent because both are very vague on this issue.
There are two perfections of God – his perfect justice vis his perfect mercy.
Punishment can be in two (non-exclusive) forms, wrath and correction. Our penitentiary system (note the name, penance) are often called corrections.

In the context of our sin; first grasp that sin is not a thing, but a privation/deprivation; is is a sickness by loss of grace; Hence, correcting sin may mean stopping the decay ( increase in sin = loss of more life ) or one may actually correct the defect and instigate healing.

An analogy:
In order to correct a defect or mortal wound in the body; one often needs a replacement body part; eg: organ donors or blood donors, etc. In such cases, the one donating the body part is either wounded to obtain it, or already dead.

Hence; Jesus was “wounded” so that we may be healed in the sense of a donor, and I think that meaning of him “suffering for our sin” is the primary one; Clearly, I don’t mean a mere replacement of some of our flesh, but the donation of a whole body which is worthy to be glorified and heals our spirit as well.

As we don’t have a microscope to examine (the supernatural) Jesus with, it isn’t possible to determine precisely how he suffered. But: The human body by itself is not capable of experiencing the punishment for every other human’s sin simultaneously – And scripture does say: “He was like us IN ALL THINGS except sin.” (we have finite bodies, nerves, pain centers…)

Hence, I think the expression “he bore our sins” is not intended to signify a simultaneous suffering (en-mass or serially) on the cross, but rather it shows the magnificence of his sacrifice by his awareness of every person who had hurt him, and being willing to die for any one of them.

It is awe inspiring to me that any man would die for another; Consider a hypothetical: if a nuclear bomb was going to go off in a city, and one man chose to die and thereby succeeded in preventing detonation – would he not be considered great to every person in that city? I mean, his greatness is not diminished or somehow diluted by the fact that he is only one man as opposed to the crowd, nor that he didn’t personally talk to every person in the city; His greatness isn’t based on a size/quantity comparison at all – but on his compassion toward all.

Just so, the meaning of Jesus’ suffering can’t be diluted or diminished if we don’t demand he simultaneously suffer and that’s where we can stray from the actual scope of the ECF’s statements you mention.

To demand that God would WANT to hurt his perfect son, on account of us, in an act of unbridled wrath is impossible; such an act would deny God’s mercy toward his son – That would say that God’s wrath was greater than his love for his SON. (Reduction to the absurd as God is Love)

Hence: I won’t look for that reason inside of God – rather, I look for it in the imperfections that are outside of God. I am of the opinion that the reason is associated with God’s historical entering into an oath with Moses; a contract (law) that God could not break on account of his own oath.

Once God was in a contract; The devil (in my view) finally had the power to attempt to force God’s hand. He was able to trigger a catch-22 with the oath God made. Hence, on account of a broken oath (although not necessarily an actual breaking of it) We or God could have been liable to punishment. (Jesus, recall, was a Jew born under THAT law of Moses).

Now, if you have experienced even our court systems – you know that a case’s technicalities can often reverse judgment; or even be redirected at the plaintiff should they be caught in vindictive calumny, or a similar crime (purgery, etc.).

I think the cross reversed the fortunes of the plaintiff and defendants; It, so to speak, caught the devil during a legal “cross” examination.

There are two scripture sayings to note:
“The law holds no power over a man once he dies” and again (in another place) it is said the crucifixion caused “prince of this world” to be cast out (condemned).

The cross, then, was a legal trap – for we also know the devil would never have crucified Jesus if he had really known who Jesus was. That’s the nature of the trap – a claim to knowledge of sin, where there was none.

Hence, when the ECF’s talk about this “punishment” – I think that some of their explanations are hyperbolic. The explanations do indeed represent a truth, but they are overly extreme on account of emotional intensity / desire to explain the magnificence of the event.

Our own legal systems, throughout all past ages, (with their imperfections) certainly influenced the thinking of the early church fathers; these are what I suggest you consider carefully when reading what any of the ECF’s have said.

St. Paul, recall, was a lawyers/pharisee – and it is he who connects the cross with Moses’ penalties. And it is also Paul, by his living example – who shows by his mistaken condemnation of Christ – that the issue is very subtle legally; Then add one more ingredient – The serpent of Genesis was the most “subtle” of all God’s creatures.

Legal novices beware. 😉
Peace.
 
So He was neither a penal substitute, or just a "sin offering " (in the Levitical context) but somehow mystically bore our sins on the cross, expiating us.

But did Jesus have to pay a debt of punishment to God like Aquinas and Anselm say? Because according to Aquinas “Christ bore a satisfactory punishment, not for His, but for our sins.”[18] The penance Christ did has its effect in paying the “debt of punishment” incurred by our sin. How does this teaching compare to the catechism and the Council of Trent because both are very vague on this issue.
It is a mystery.

We know He is not a penal substitute, because He is not burning eternally in hell, which is what we deserve.

We know he is not just a sin offering, because His sacrifice caused purification from sins.

Rom 3:22-26
For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

Expiation in the Gk. is hilasteerios, hilasteeria, hilasteerion relating to appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force

So God has accepted Christ’s blood as “satisfaction” for our sin debt.
 
OIC. Ok, Penal Substitution teaches that Jesus took our place, and was recieved the punishment due to us for our sins. This is considered a heresy because, if Jesus substituted Himself to pay our due, then He would be suffering eternally in Hell, which we all are in agreement He is not.

So He was neither a penal substitute, or just a "sin offering " (in the Levitical context) but somehow mystically bore our sins on the cross, expiating us.

1 Peter 2:24-25
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

1 Peter 3:18-19
8 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit;

Heb 1:3
When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high…

Heb 10:11-15

11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Jesus’ sacrifice is far superior to the sin offerings of the OT, becuase his single and once for all sacrifice allowed us to be purified and consecrated to God.
G4 …

Peter’s testimony in scripture supports Christ paying a ONCE FOR ALL, ONCE FOR ALL-TIME ‘death penance’ for us. Our sins necessitated his Torture & Death. As scripture teaches,----- w/o the shedding of blood …there is no remission of sin. If Christ had not suffered/ died … the Eucharist would be meaningless.

In my opinion, those who say St. Thomas Aquinas didn’t teach Penal Substitution…are trying to make distinctions/clarifications that aren’t necessary or an improvement upon what Aquinas wrote on the subject.
 
I’m not convinced at all that Penal Substitution is wrong …having read your link. I think Protestant understandings are indeed Biblical & Valid !!
You would have to be more specific than that. The link showed that the Biblical term “Atonement” NEVER means “transfer a punishment,” so I’m very curious as to how you can say the PSub view is “Biblical & Valid.”

The New Testament uses terms like “Redeem” and other similar terminology, indicating a buy-back price, which is not the same as transferring a punishment. And to make things clear, the Protestant view says that since man deserves physical and spiritual death, then Jesus took those in our place, including suffering hellfire. Well, that’s not Biblical and in fact destroys the Trinity.
 
You would have to be more specific than that. The link showed that the Biblical term “Atonement” NEVER means “transfer a punishment,” so I’m very curious as to how you can say the PSub view is “Biblical & Valid.”

The New Testament uses terms like “Redeem” and other similar terminology, indicating a buy-back price, which is not the same as transferring a punishment. And to make things clear, the Protestant view says that since man deserves physical and spiritual death, then Jesus took those in our place, including suffering hellfire. Well, that’s not Biblical and in fact destroys the Trinity.
The greatest mind ( very probable ) in history examined this matter…and T. Aquinas saw it as Substitutionary death by Christ for us, indeed for all mankind !

I think Thomas ‘nailed it’ … and the Church accepted his teaching, that Christ did a ’ death penance’ for we Christians & for ALL mankind…if they would only claim and name him as Lord.

Thus, penal substitution, seems appropriate terminology to use.
 
Funny that both of you are Catholics yet strongly disagree with each other on what Christ’s death accomplished and what his atonement was all about.
 
Funny that both of you are Catholics yet strongly disagree with each other on what Christ’s death accomplished and what his atonement was all about.
Aquinas quotes all the key OT scriptures…on need for shedding of blood by Christ, as atonement for our sins. Abraham / Isaac on mount …with God providing Lamb is Prooftext of need for Blood Sacrifice. Christ said he willingly gave up his life, to please the Father…and to purchase (pay penalty/do penance) for all men. Then, his teaching BEFORE his death on the Eucharist. And, then his extreme torture/ death on cross …when scripture teaches that anyone that hangs from tree is cursed ( by our sins in this case). And finally, his cry to Father about being forsaken.

Christ knew all this was his fate, but willingly endured it …as a penal substitute for the children of Adam.
Yet, in his resurrection, he conquered death & hell, and won our victory, in the New Adam.
 
The greatest mind ( very probable ) in history examined this matter…and T. Aquinas saw it as Substitutionary death by Christ for us, indeed for all mankind !

I think Thomas ‘nailed it’ … and the Church accepted his teaching, that Christ did a ’ death penance’ for we Christians & for ALL mankind…if they would only claim and name him as Lord.

Thus, penal substitution, seems appropriate terminology to use.
This explains a lot then, because this means you don’t properly understand Aquinas and how his view differs greatly from the Protestant view. Yes, Thomas did use terms like “Satisfactory Punishment,” but properly understood this does not translate into the Protestant doctrine of Penal Substitution. Consider these quotes from the Summa:

He properly atones for an offense who offers something which the offended one loves equally, or even more than he detested the offense. But by suffering out of love and obedience, Christ gave more to God than was required to compensate for the offense of the whole human race. First of all, because of the exceeding charity from which He suffered; secondly, on account of the dignity of His life which He laid down in atonement, for it was the life of one who was God and man; thirdly, on account of the extent of the Passion, and the greatness of the grief endured, as stated above (46, 6). And therefore Christ’s Passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race; according to 1 John 2:2: “He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.” (ST 3:48:2)

Now it is the proper effect of sacrifice to appease God: just as man likewise overlooks an offense committed against him on account of some pleasing act of homage shown him. Hence it is written (1 Samuel 26:19): “If the Lord stir thee up against me, let Him accept of sacrifice.” And in like fashion Christ’s voluntary suffering was such a good act that, because of its being found in human nature, God was appeased for every offense of the human race with regard to those who are made one with the crucified Christ in the aforesaid manner (ST 3:49:4)

There is no mention - not just here but anywhere - of Jesus enduring the Father’s wrath. No Catholic theologian or Church Father would ever have said the sufferings Christ endured was the outpouring of God’s wrath, where as Protestants are explicit that this was indeed the chief and central pain Christ felt.
 
This explains a lot then, because this means you don’t properly understand Aquinas and how his view differs greatly from the Protestant view. Yes, Thomas did use terms like “Satisfactory Punishment,” but properly understood this does not translate into the Protestant doctrine of Penal Substitution. Consider these quotes from the Summa:

He properly atones for an offense who offers something which the offended one loves equally, or even more than he detested the offense. But by suffering out of love and obedience, Christ gave more to God than was required to compensate for the offense of the whole human race. First of all, because of the exceeding charity from which He suffered; secondly, on account of the dignity of His life which He laid down in atonement, for it was the life of one who was God and man; thirdly, on account of the extent of the Passion, and the greatness of the grief endured, as stated above (46, 6). And therefore Christ’s Passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race; according to 1 John 2:2: “He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.” (ST 3:48:2)

Now it is the proper effect of sacrifice to appease God: just as man likewise overlooks an offense committed against him on account of some pleasing act of homage shown him. Hence it is written (1 Samuel 26:19): “If the Lord stir thee up against me, let Him accept of sacrifice.” And in like fashion Christ’s voluntary suffering was such a good act that, because of its being found in human nature, God was appeased for every offense of the human race with regard to those who are made one with the crucified Christ in the aforesaid manner (ST 3:49:4)

There is no mention - not just here but anywhere - of Jesus enduring the Father’s wrath. No Catholic theologian or Church Father would ever have said the sufferings Christ endured was the outpouring of God’s wrath, where as Protestants are explicit that this was indeed the chief and central pain Christ felt.
Well, again, I said from beginning that St. THOMAS explained it right … not that Protestant’s do.

Its our punishment that Christ assumed …and, he suffered & died in our stead, so that thru Him, we might live Eternally. Is God a God of Wrath or Love ? I guess it depends on if we decide to accept Christ’s loving, substitutionary death on our behalf.
We can chose his love & mercy …or we can chose disbelief and hang on our own cross come judgment day.

Would that be wrath or fair judgment …if we fail to accept so great a gift of mercy ?
 
Just some thoughts, so feel free to ignore, but does the forgiveness of sins and the resurrection hang on the greatest commandments

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, this would have been the greatest way he could respond to each and every situation in his life. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself, Judas who betrayed him, the soldiers who crowned him with thorns and nailed him to the cross? Jesus was an innocent man, with the power and authority to ask God to punish these people.

But it seems that nothing, and no one should stand in the way of Jesus living by the greatest commandments, and we know that he prayed on the cross, ‘ forgive them Father’
It seems that every time Jesus suffered injustice here on Earth, he forgave, in order that he should continue to love the sinners as he loved himself. If Jesus can forgive the people who had him killed, then it should give us hope that we can be forgiven also. What kind of a burden do we place on Jesus with our sins?

After his resurrection does the divine nature of Jesus, follow his human nature? When Jesus ascended into heaven, does Jesus still forgive us, in order that he should continue to love each and every one of us as he loves himself?

John 15 – As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you.
 
Protestants often say that they are covered in the blood instead of washed by the blood. If that was the case then it means that their sins remain but God does not see them because He only sees His Son’s blood. However, that is not the case. We are washed by the blood of Jesus during our baptism. His blood cleanses us from all our sins. It literally wipes the sins away so that they no longer exist.
 
Protestants often say that they are covered in the blood instead of washed by the blood. If that was the case then it means that their sins remain but God does not see them because He only sees His Son’s blood. However, that is not the case. We are washed by the blood of Jesus during our baptism. His blood cleanses us from all our sins. It literally wipes the sins away so that they no longer exist.
Yes, some say it wrongly …you said it right

… washed clean by Blood of Lamb !!
 
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