Catholic View of Salvation as an Orthodox

[ByzCathCantor]

I would like to make it clear that I would join Holy Orthodoxy because of their pure and completely strict adherence to Easter Tradition.

I’m not entirely certain what you mean by “strict adherence to Easter Tradition”. That said, were you to actively participate in Lenten, Holy Week and Pascha services of an Eastern Catholic Church of Slavic origin, I’m fairly confident you will be sufficiently moved by the Holy Spirit and walk away feeling as if you had properly prepared for and experienced the Resurrection of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Given the common roots and customs of the Slavic churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, there is no need to turn to Orthodoxy for you to experience the customs and traditions that you may be seeking, as your forum name suggests (love of russia).

As disclosed, I’m a Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic. The priest in my home parish was trained and ordained Russian Orthodox. While he faithfully followed the rubrics of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic rite, I will always remember his passionate recital of Pascal Matins and the Divine Liturgy on Easter Sunday. That said, my experience has been repeated elsewhere in the Byzantine-Ruthenian Church and in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, as well ( and I am still committed to experiencing Pascha in the traditions of the other Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches).

If on the other hand you are troubled by some of the teachings of the Catholic Church, I would encourage you to seek guidance from either another priest in the Latin Rite or a local priest in one of the Eastern Rite churches. You may find the difference in perspective of the Eastern churches to be more aligned to your spiritual sense of being.

 

[Vico]

As the title above reveals, I am inquiring about what the state of my soul would be at death, if I were to leave the Catholic Church and become Eastern Orthodox. That being said, I still would believe that the filioque, Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Papal Infallibility, and the Assumption of the Theotokos as the Holy See has defined it to not be heretical. In addition, I would like to make it clear that I would join Holy Orthodoxy because of their pure and completely strict adherence to Easter Tradition. Any information? Christ is born!

I was banned on this forum once for using the Sch… word so read this article:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm

 

[ConstantineTG]

I was banned on this forum once for using the Sch… word so read this article:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm

Nice link. But I’m just wondering, it defines schism by one who refuses communion with the Roman Pontiff. But what if someone drives you out? I think its sadly a common story that Eastern Catholics are not treated well and this sometimes drives people to Orthodoxy mainly because they share the faith with the Orthodox and the event has put their communion with the Pope into question.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

Note from Moderator:

The use of the terms schismatic or heretic may not be used as generic descriptors for any of the Eastern or Oriental Churches, whether Catholic or Orthodox.

If it is an acceptable use of the word, use it. If it isn’t, don’t. If you aren’t sure, ask. Don’t play word games.

An example of acceptable usage of the terms is a direct quote of a third-party document which is otherwise pertinent to an ongoing discussion. Care should be taken by all posters that their choice of words foster an environment in which it is possible to discuss, dialogue, dissent, and even debate without causing offense or acrimony between posters.

 

[Vico]

Nice link. But I’m just wondering, it defines schism by one who refuses communion with the Roman Pontiff. But what if someone drives you out? I think its sadly a common story that Eastern Catholics are not treated well and this sometimes drives people to Orthodoxy mainly because they share the faith with the Orthodox and the event has put their communion with the Pope into question.

Sin is the turning away from God, it is a lack of charity.

It is sinful to reject the Catholic faith that one believes and professes – in two ways – because it also causes scandal. The Catholic Churches have full hierarchical communion, share the Holy Mysteries, and the same faith. It would manifest indifference and give scandal for a Catholic to join another non-Catholic particular Church or ecclesial community, or non-Christian religion or philosophy. The Catholic Church has clearly taught to avoid indifferentism. If there were no difference, then the non-Catholic Churches would have no objection to full hierarchical communion, unconditional sharing of the Holy Mysteries for those properly disposed, and of recognition of the validity of all the dogmas of faith taught in *all *the Catholic Churches.

It is a great test of faith when someone is uncharitable towards you, and the holy response is to forgive and not be uncharitable in return.

 

[Filii_Dei]

I was banned on this forum once for using the Sch… word so read this article:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm

For a moment, I thought you meant scholasticism.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Nice link. But I’m just wondering, it defines schism by one who refuses communion with the Roman Pontiff. But what if someone drives you out? I think its sadly a common story that Eastern Catholics are not treated well and this sometimes drives people to Orthodoxy mainly because they share the faith with the Orthodox and the event has put their communion with the Pope into question.

No one can drive a person out of the Church, unless one considers excommunication an act of being driven from the Church. It is possible for a person to be wrongly excommunicated, and in this case it would not affect the state of the person’s soul.

Voluntarily leaving the Catholic Church for a Church that is not in full communion with Her cannot be justified from a Catholic perspective. It would be an act of separation from the Body of Christ.

 

[Elijahmaria]

If you would believe all that, you should bloom where you are planted.

Why? Father Lev Gillet believed all that and he eventually bloomed in Orthodoxy…as an Orthodox priest.

Surely those who admitted him to Orthodoxy knew his heart.

Why would you shove someone away?

M.

 

[Elijahmaria]

Sin is the turning away from God, it is a lack of charity.

It is sinful to reject the Catholic faith that one believes and professes – in two ways – because it also causes scandal. The Catholic Churches have full hierarchical communion, share the Holy Mysteries, and the same faith. It would manifest indifference and give scandal for a Catholic to join another non-Catholic particular Church or ecclesial community, or non-Christian religion or philosophy. The Catholic Church has clearly taught to avoid indifferentism. If there were no difference, then the non-Catholic Churches would have no objection to full hierarchical communion, unconditional sharing of the Holy Mysteries for those properly disposed, and of recognition of the validity of all the dogmas of faith taught in *all *the Catholic Churches.

It is a great test of faith when someone is uncharitable towards you, and the holy response is to forgive and not be uncharitable in return.

The Catholic Church is a formal title. That does not negate the fact that Orthodoxy is genuinely Catholic.

 

[Elijahmaria]

No one can drive a person out of the Church, unless one considers excommunication an act of being driven from the Church. It is possible for a person to be wrongly excommunicated, and in this case it would not affect the state of the person’s soul.

Voluntarily leaving the Catholic Church for a Church that is not in full communion with Her cannot be justified from a Catholic perspective. It would be an act of separation from the Body of Christ.

The Catholic Church recognizes Orthodox particular Churches as Churches, and recognizes grace in Orthodox sacraments and Apostolic Succession. The separation would be a MATERIAL separation from The Catholic Church but NOT a formal separation from the Body of Christ.

 

[Vico]

The Catholic Church is a formal title. That does not negate the fact that Orthodoxy is genuinely Catholic.

Yes. And per the Catholic Church teaching, all the apostolic churches – the Assyrian Church of the East, the six Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the many Eastern Orthodox Churches – because they are not in full communion with one another, wound the Church of Christ, as all these apostolic churches along with the Christian ecclesial communities, subsist in the one Church of Christ. The be the full faith they must be in communion with the Pope of Rome.

 

[russialover]

Is it possible to be in communion with Rome while being EO, for example, if I were to say that I believe the pope to be the vicar of Christ and all things necessary, would that constitute being in communion with him?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Is it possible to be in communion with Rome while being EO, for example, if I were to say that I believe the pope to be the vicar of Christ and all things necessary, would that constitute being in communion with him?

I don’t think that would count as being in communion with Rome: you would have to be under a bishop who is in communion with the pope, for you to be in communion with Rome (and there are no Eastern Orthodox bishops who are in communion with the pope). I’m going to have to agree with some of the other Orthodox posters here. If you believe that the teachings of the Catholic Church are true, and if you wish to stay in communion with Rome, then you should remain in the Catholic Church. Joining the Orthodox Church would most definitely sever your communion with Rome.

 

[Pitcharan]

I don’t think that would count as being in communion with Rome: you would have to be under a bishop who is in communion with the pope, for you to be in communion with Rome (and there are no Eastern Orthodox bishops who are in communion with the pope). I’m going to have to agree with some of the other Orthodox posters here. If you believe that the teachings of the Catholic Church are true, and if you wish to stay in communion with Rome, then you should remain in the Catholic Church. Joining the Orthodox Church would most definitely sever your communion with Rome.

What about those Orthodox churches that have signed an agreement with our Pope, wherein they recognize each other’s Sacraments and also permit each other’s flock to receive Communion in either church?

 

[Cavaradossi]

What about those Orthodox churches that have signed an agreement with our Pope, wherein they recognize each other’s Sacraments and also permit each other’s flock to receive Communion in either church?

I know of no church within the Eastern Orthodox Church which has signed such an agreement, allowing for intercommunion (if I am wrong, then I am willing to be corrected on this matter). Even if they have signed agreements allowing for intercommunion of the laity under extreme circumstances, the clergy do not intercommune, nor is the pope (or any other bishop in communion with him) ever commemorated in Orthodox divine liturgies. These are signs that we are not in union, hence why leaving the Catholic Church for the Orthodox Church would indeed be breaking one’s communion with Rome.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

As the title above reveals, I am inquiring about what the state of my soul would be at death, if I were to leave the Catholic Church and become Eastern Orthodox. That being said, I still would believe that the filioque, Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, Papal Infallibility, and the Assumption of the Theotokos as the Holy See has defined it to not be heretical. In addition, I would like to make it clear that I would join Holy Orthodoxy because of their pure and completely strict adherence to Easter Tradition. Any information? Christ is born!

If you truly believed that the Orthodox Church is the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church founded by the Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles… then you could indeed still go to heaven.

But honestly, you say you’ll still believe in all those Catholic doctrines that the Orthodox are uncomfortable with. So in your particular case, by converting to the Orthodox Church you’d essentially be lying. You might in fact literally have to lie; converts from the Catholic Church have to renounce certain Catholic doctrines.

So I cannot see how the reason you have given could justify lying to the Orthodox Church in order to join them… they aren’t comfortable with some of the doctrines you named, so it would be dishonest for you to join. If you really believe what Rome teaches but desire to embrace a fully eastern theology, liturgy, spirituality, and praxis… then you need to find an eastern Catholic church that brings you closer to God.

Is it possible to be in communion with Rome while being EO, for example, if I were to say that I believe the pope to be the vicar of Christ and all things necessary, would that constitute being in communion with him?

No. As other posters have pointed out, communion depends on bishops. You are “in communion with Rome” if your bishop is in communion with the bishop of Rome, and no Orthodox bishop is at present in communion with the bishop of Rome. Your beliefs as an individual are not what constitute communion or a lack thereof.

Russialover, why do you seem resistant to the idea of canonically enrolling in an eastern Catholic church? You say you want a pure, genuinely eastern way of living the Christian faith, but you believe that what Rome teaches is fully orthodox. It sounds to me that you’re precisely the sort of Catholic who would describe himself or herself as “Orthodox in communion with Rome” … which makes perfect sense. But you cannot be in communion with Rome if you enter a church that is not in communion with Rome.

I don’t know where you live, but have you tried finding an eastern Catholic church?

 

[Hesychios]

What about those Orthodox churches that have signed an agreement with our Pope, wherein they recognize each other’s Sacraments and also permit each other’s flock to receive Communion in either church?

There are no Orthodox churches which have done this.

 

[Vico]

There are no Orthodox churches which have done this.

No signed agreements. There are some guidelines:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

And also Pope Benedict XVI has elaborated that reception of the Holy Mysteries between Catholics and non-Catholics “is possible only in specific, exceptional situations and requires that certain precisely defined conditions be met”:
*** Participation by Christians who are not Catholic***
56. The subject of participation in the Eucharist inevitably raises the question of Christians belonging to Churches or Ecclesial Communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church. In this regard, it must be said that the intrinsic link between the Eucharist and the Church’s unity inspires us to long for the day when we will be able to celebrate the Holy Eucharist together with all believers in Christ, and in this way to express visibly the fullness of unity that Christ willed for his disciples (cf.* Jn* 17:21). On the other hand, the respect we owe to the sacrament of Christ’s Body and Blood prevents us from making it a mere “means” to be used indiscriminately in order to attain that unity. (172) The Eucharist in fact not only manifests our personal communion with Jesus Christ, but also implies full communio with the Church. This is the reason why, sadly albeit not without hope, we ask Christians who are not Catholic to understand and respect our conviction, which is grounded in the Bible and Tradition. We hold that eucharistic communion and ecclesial communion are so linked as to make it generally impossible for non-Catholic Christians to receive the former without enjoying the latter. There would be even less sense in actually concelebrating with ministers of Churches or ecclesial communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church. Yet it remains true that, for the sake of their eternal salvation, individual non-Catholic Christians can be admitted to the Eucharist, the sacrament of Reconciliation and the Anointing of the Sick. But this is possible only in specific, exceptional situations and requires that certain precisely defined conditions be met (173). These are clearly indicated in the* Catechism of the Catholic Church* (174) and in its* Compendium* (175). Everyone is obliged to observe these norms faithfully.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html

 

[Hesychios]

Why? Father Lev Gillet believed all that

I am sure that when he was a young Roman Catholic that would have been the case.

…and he eventually bloomed in Orthodoxy…as an Orthodox priest.

People change.

Father Lev (baptized into the French Roman Catholic church and a Benedictine monk) was perfectly situated within the UGCC, knowing and working with Archbishop Sheptytskij. He could believe latin theology and worship as an Eastern Catholic.

Yet chose to become Orthodox, being fully aware of the condemnation which comes with that. At some point he has to have decided that the anathemas do not bother him, and the conversion was worth the risk.

Why would you shove someone away?

M.

Is this a numbers game? Are we supposed to not care what each other believe, just get them to join the church?

I would not advise anyone who was totally committed to Latin theology even to become an Eastern Catholic, much less an Orthodox Christian. A person should decide what they believe, and worship in the church community which teaches that.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

What about those Orthodox churches that have signed an agreement with our Pope, wherein they recognize each other’s Sacraments and also permit each other’s flock to receive Communion in either church?

I know of no church within the Eastern Orthodox Church which has signed such an agreement, allowing for intercommunion …

In fairness, I think our friend Pitcharan may be thinking of the Eastern Catholic Churches that reunited with Rome after the “first millenial divide”.

We would reiterate, that the position of the Catholic Church is clear - the Apostolic succession in Orthodoxy is clearly affirmed and the sacraments considered equally valid. At present, Orthodox may receive Holy Eucharist in the Catholic Church. However, they may be precluded from doing so in obedience to the norms of their Orthodox Church.

Both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches have recognized instances where administration of the Sacraments may be permitted by Catholics to Orthodox and vice versa, in exceptional circumstances as to avoid potential spiritual harm to the faithful.

It’s a start …