Catholic View of the Bible

[jbsmith]

hurst:

Since you are new, then you may not be able to do much just yet. But you must realize that you will have to constantly check what they are saying with what the Church actually teaches! Come here often and throw out questions. It will also be a good way to get to know the faith better.

I’m sorry. May God have mercy on both them and you and bring us all into His glorious Truth.

The fact is, Jesus Himself said “The scriptures cannot be broken” (John 10:35). The Church teaches that it is all TRUE, and not fiction.

Those leaders may be getting by with it for the moment, but their time will come. Teachers are judged more strictly!

hurst

I’m really glad I started this thread. I’ve already learned something.

I was just thinking about that, actually. I don’t remember the reference right now, but I remember reading in one of the Epistles that teachers will be judged more strictly. Scary.

 

[jbsmith]

The footnotes for the NAB are often heretical - you cannot go by them.

I agree, the notes I read do sound heretical. How was this Bible allowed to be published with these heretical footnotes? I thought the Magisterium had to review and approve all Bibles and Catholic books before they were published. I bought this Bible at a Catholic bookstore in my area.

Welcome to the Church Militant! We have been infiltrated and the battle is raging. Brace yourself for suffering. It is needed and God calls us to it

How was the Church infiltrated? I thought the Vatican maintained tight control on the worldwide Church. I mean, if this were a Protestant sect, I would understand, but not the Church. .

May God have mercy on your parish.

I agree. They need prayer.

 

[jbsmith]

Precisely what we should do. The Bible is the Word of God.

Just keep in mind that the Church is the final authority on interpreting it.

Wow. It looks like it’s going to take a bit of research and study to figure out what is official Church doctrine and what is heretical opinion from unapproved sources. Fortunately for me, I like Biblical research and study.

 

[Al_Masetti]

jbsmith:

Thank you for the link. It’s very reasonable to state that not all the things Jesus said and did are included in the Gospels. They even state that fact. It’s also reasonable to incude that the individual writers used various literary forms in order to get the Gospel message across to their audiences. But since this is the Word of God, it must be completely true and historical. I’m relieved that what my RCIA teacher told us doesn’t seem to be the view of the entire Church, although now I’m puzzled as to how these unorthodox views crept into the Church.

Not sure how many people have read he last sentence of John.

 

[jbsmith]

Al Masetti:

Not sure how many people have read he last sentence of John.

“There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”
John 21:25 NAB

 

[gardenswithkids]

jbsmith:

I do have a question, though. Forgive me if this sounds naive or simple, but I’m new to the Church. How has all this deviation from orthodox Catholic doctrine crept into the Church? I always thought that the Catholic Church was structured in a very organized way as to protect doctrines and traditions. That’s one thing I always liked about the Church. When all the Protestant sects are fighting with each other over doctrines and correct interpretations of the Bible, the Catholic Church has been the same through the years. Why doesn’t the Magisterium put a stop to this? I’m sure there must be more than just this teacher.

Unfortunately you are right that he’s not the only one. The doctrines don’t change, but not every theologian teaches according to doctrine. I suspect intellectual pride is how the devil attacks these poor souls. These poor souls, (who may have impressive credentials and may teach at Catholic institutions) spread false teachings to others. It’s terribly sad to know Catholics who don’t know their faith; it’s sadder yet when they learned lies that passed for Catholic education. The Magisterium can (and has) told some they can no longer call themselves Catholic theologians. Many Catholics were excited to see Pope Benedict elected because they expect him to crack down harder on heretics.

One of the best things the Church did to fight heresies was publishing the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the 1990’s. It makes it easier for lay people to discover what the Magisterium actually teaches. While I was away from the Church, the Catechism was published which helped me return. If I hear anything “odd” I check the Catechism. If you don’t already have one I’d recommend you get the darker covered edition as it has better indexes, including an index of all the Biblical citations in the text.

I’m glad to read you haven’t given up on the Church.

 

[jbsmith]

gardenswithkids:

Unfortunately you are right that he’s not the only one. The doctrines don’t change, but not every theologian teaches according to doctrine. I suspect intellectual pride is how the devil attacks these poor souls. These poor souls, (who may have impressive credentials and may teach at Catholic institutions) spread false teachings to others. It’s terribly sad to know Catholics who don’t know their faith; it’s sadder yet when they learned lies that passed for Catholic education. The Magisterium can (and has) told some they can no longer call themselves Catholic theologians. Many Catholics were excited to see Pope Benedict elected because they expect him to crack down harder on heretics.

One of the best things the Church did to fight heresies was publishing the Catechism of the Catholic Church in the 1990’s. It makes it easier for lay people to discover what the Magisterium actually teaches. While I was away from the Church, the Catechism was published which helped me return. If I hear anything “odd” I check the Catechism. If you don’t already have one I’d recommend you get the darker covered edition as it has better indexes, including an index of all the Biblical citations in the text.

I’m glad to read you haven’t given up on the Church.

Is Pope Benedict XVI taking steps to rid the Church of these heresies? The leadership at the parish I used to attend don’t like him. I’ve heard the priest, nun, and choir director make statements to the effect that he’s too conservative. The priest and choir director were lamenting the fact that thanks to Benedict XVI, “nothing is going to change.”

Thank you for the Catechism recommendation. I’ve been wondering which edition to buy. I’ll look up the edition with the dark cover.

 

[hurst]

jbsmith:

Well, I haven’t been back to class since then. I really don’t think I want to receive my instruction from this man. I won’t trust anything he teaches me from now on after this.

Ok. I wasn’t sure if another parish was available for you. I would definitely go to a different parish if you can.

jbsmith:

I do have a question, though. Forgive me if this sounds naive or simple, but I’m new to the Church. How has all this deviation from orthodox Catholic doctrine crept into the Church?

Worldly people with an agenda, private sin of individuals, assault of devils, apathy of nominal Catholics, infiltration of external secret societies, etc.

jbsmith:

I always thought that the Catholic Church was structured in a very organized way as to protect doctrines and traditions. That’s one thing I always liked about the Church.

That is true mainly in the hierarchical structure of authority, and remains so. On the other hand, the liturgy has been changed in recent years to encourage people to participate more in the Mass, and many of the safeguards to the faith that were in it have been dropped. Reverence is down and even discouraged (try kneeling for Communion or, for women, wearing a veil to Mass), in favor of modernization to make people feel comfortable. It can be seen as a lashback from the days when everything was very strict. (And afterall, even when it was strict, people could still be without any faith and only be going through the motions.)

There are always those who are trying to bypass the rules in favor of some personal desire. Isn’t that the same for a child who wants the cookie from the cookie jar even though he knows it is not permitted?

The effect is that many have “in practice” lost the sense of the true faith, though it is preserved in the official documents and proclamations of the Church.

Jesus warned about servants who were not doing as they were supposed to when He returns. Remember Him asking if there would be faith on earth when He returned? And recall that there would be a general apostasy from the Faith.

Again many have lost the true faith, have adopted the spirit of the world, and are trying to make themselves more comfortable in the Church. They are not trying to please God, but seem to have an attitude that God should be fine with it.

jbsmith:

Why doesn’t the Magisterium put a stop to this? I’m sure there must be more than just this teacher.

I have wondered the same thing. I think the answer is that there has been so much disobedience and it has become so ingrained in various structures in the Church that few are listening to or even able to hear the Pope and magisterium. And many are probably afraid of being accused of staging an inquisition.

Also, there is a support network within the Church - a sort of subculture - that fosters and protects these errors. There are actually several subcultures doing this. Whenever a good priest tries to do something, he often faces stiff opposition and unjust treatment. I know of a priest who goes around fostering devotion to the Blessed Sacrament in Perpetual Adoration chapels, and he suffers persecution from many of his own fellow priests!

It is an insidious evil, and I think God allows it to teach the apathetic Catholics that we cannot take our Faith for granted. For while it is true that the Church will prevail, it is not true that every parish will prevail. It has happened in the past. During the Arian heresy, it was hard to find people with the true faith, even clergy. And nowadays one can see parishes being led astray.

The key is that the Church as a whole is preserved. It is preserved in the person of the Pope. Individual bishops can fall away and priests can fall away, but the Pope will not, according to the promise of Christ. It is because the Church is the foundation of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15) that we are able to discern when any of its leaders go astray from it.

hurst

 

[itsjustdave1988]

jbsmith:

… I’m puzzled as to how these unorthodox views crept into the Church.

Satan.

 

[hurst]

jbsmith:

I agree, the notes I read do sound heretical. How was this Bible allowed to be published with these heretical footnotes? I thought the Magisterium had to review and approve all Bibles and Catholic books before they were published. I bought this Bible at a Catholic bookstore in my area.

Very good question. It must have been a case where the Pope approved the Biblical translation, but then the footnotes were added later.

It is also clear that certain “approvals” are based on trust, and not on the fact that the Pope reads everything contained therein, especially when it concerns a large volume of work.

Nowadays the seals used for approval of texts have been diluted by the fact that many have been given wrongly, and some even have to be rescinded by other reviewers!

We have experienced a huge onslaught of technology in the past 30 years whereby anyone can be their own publisher. Even photographs are no longer trusted because of the technology avaiable for altering or creating images realistically. Even so, one must not be quick to trust new publications that have not stood the test of time and that are subject to easy manipulation.

You are better to go with a Bible published before all the technology allowed easy changes. At a minimum, you should at least use older texts to supplement newer ones.

jbsmith:

How was the Church infiltrated? I thought the Vatican maintained tight control on the worldwide Church. I mean, if this were a Protestant sect, I would understand, but not the Church. .

Communist spies went to the seminaries and became priests. Secret members of Masonic organizations did likewise. Homosexual activists did likewise. They rose up in the ranks and gained positions of authority in places such as the admissions board of seminaries. Now they have a hold on both who to let in and what to teach those who come in. They start changing, little by little and as they gain leverage, what they are saying from orthodox teaching to dissenting teaching to outright heretical teaching. It is something that, like the mafia, is organized by sophisticated external groups with a mission to harness the global reach of the Church. Anyone who questions them is singled out as being “uncharitable” or “subversive” of authority or simply disobedient. It is the height of hypocrisy, but their time is coming. Meanwhile, so many Catholics are unbothered by it all because they have adopted the spirit of the world and are caught up in its pleasures and worries. Is it not all a punishment for our apathy?

Notice how various clergy are resisting the actions from the Vatican to clean up the seminaries. They are trying to leverage popular opinion and their own clout to keep their hold. It is like trying to cast out a devil who doesn’t want to leave.

hurst

 

[hurst]

jbsmith:

Wow. It looks like it’s going to take a bit of research and study to figure out what is official Church doctrine and what is heretical opinion from unapproved sources.

Yes. But the main ingredient one needs is humility and obedience to God. Many of the high-ranking clergy promoting errors were very scholarly and respected as “experts”. The problem is that their heart and treasure were elsewhere.

hurst

 

[jbsmith]

hurst:

Ok. I wasn’t sure if another parish was available for you. I would definitely go to a different parish if you can.

Worldly people with an agenda, private sin of individuals, assault of devils, apathy of nominal Catholics, infiltration of external secret societies, etc.

That is true mainly in the hierarchical structure of authority, and remains so. On the other hand, the liturgy has been changed in recent years to encourage people to participate more in the Mass, and many of the safeguards to the faith that were in it have been dropped. Reverence is down and even discouraged (try kneeling for Communion or, for women, wearing a veil to Mass), in favor of modernization to make people feel comfortable. It can be seen as a lashback from the days when everything was very strict. (And afterall, even when it was strict, people could still be without any faith and only be going through the motions.)

There are always those who are trying to bypass the rules in favor of some personal desire. Isn’t that the same for a child who wants the cookie from the cookie jar even though he knows it is not permitted?

The effect is that many have “in practice” lost the sense of the true faith, though it is preserved in the official documents and proclamations of the Church.

Jesus warned about servants who were not doing as they were supposed to when He returns. Remember Him asking if there would be faith on earth when He returned? And recall that there would be a general apostasy from the Faith.

Again many have lost the true faith, have adopted the spirit of the world, and are trying to make themselves more comfortable in the Church. They are not trying to please God, but seem to have an attitude that God should be fine with it.

I have wondered the same thing. I think the answer is that there has been so much disobedience and it has become so ingrained in various structures in the Church that few are listening to or even able to hear the Pope and magisterium. And many are probably afraid of being accused of staging an inquisition.

Also, there is a support network within the Church - a sort of subculture - that fosters and protects these errors. There are actually several subcultures doing this. Whenever a good priest tries to do something, he often faces stiff opposition and unjust treatment. I know of a priest who goes around fostering devotion to the Blessed Sacrament in Perpetual Adoration chapels, and he suffers persecution from many of his own fellow priests!

It is an insidious evil, and I think God allows it to teach the apathetic Catholics that we cannot take our Faith for granted. For while it is true that the Church will prevail, it is not true that every parish will prevail. It has happened in the past. During the Arian heresy, it was hard to find people with the true faith, even clergy. And nowadays one can see parishes being led astray.

The key is that the Church as a whole is preserved. It is preserved in the person of the Pope. Individual bishops can fall away and priests can fall away, but the Pope will not, according to the promise of Christ. It is because the Church is the foundation of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15) that we are able to discern when any of its leaders go astray from it.

hurst

Thank you for your reply. I don’t even know what to say right now. I had no idea.

 

[jbsmith]

hurst:

Very good question. It must have been a case where the Pope approved the Biblical translation, but then the footnotes were added later.

It is also clear that certain “approvals” are based on trust, and not on the fact that the Pope reads everything contained therein, especially when it concerns a large volume of work.

Nowadays the seals used for approval of texts have been diluted by the fact that many have been given wrongly, and some even have to be rescinded by other reviewers!

We have experienced a huge onslaught of technology in the past 30 years whereby anyone can be their own publisher. Even photographs are no longer trusted because of the technology avaiable for altering or creating images realistically. Even so, one must not be quick to trust new publications that have not stood the test of time and that are subject to easy manipulation.

You are better to go with a Bible published before all the technology allowed easy changes. At a minimum, you should at least use older texts to supplement newer ones.

Communist spies went to the seminaries and became priests. Secret members of Masonic organizations did likewise. Homosexual activists did likewise. They rose up in the ranks and gained positions of authority in places such as the admissions board of seminaries. Now they have a hold on both who to let in and what to teach those who come in. They start changing, little by little and as they gain leverage, what they are saying from orthodox teaching to dissenting teaching to outright heretical teaching. It is something that, like the mafia, is organized by sophisticated external groups with a mission to harness the global reach of the Church. Anyone who questions them is singled out as being “uncharitable” or “subversive” of authority or simply disobedient. It is the height of hypocrisy, but their time is coming. Meanwhile, so many Catholics are unbothered by it all because they have adopted the spirit of the world and are caught up in its pleasures and worries. Is it not all a punishment for our apathy?

Notice how various clergy are resisting the actions from the Vatican to clean up the seminaries. They are trying to leverage popular opinion and their own clout to keep their hold. It is like trying to cast out a devil who doesn’t want to leave.

hurst

Thank you for the Bible information and recommendation. I’ll definitely keep it in mind. By the way, I read on amazon.com yesterday that a new edition of the NAB Study Bible is being released this month. The listing said that all the study notes have been completely rewritten. Have you heard about it? I’m wondering now if the study notes are being rewritten to make them more orthodox.

I heard about the Vatican trying to clean up the seminaries, but I don’t know much about it. Is the Vatican being successful at this so far? Isn’t it within the power of the Vatican to excommunicate individuals who just won’t repent and come in line with the Magisterium?

 

[jbsmith]

hurst:

Yes. But the main ingredient one needs is humility and obedience to God. Many of the high-ranking clergy promoting errors were very scholarly and respected as “experts”. The problem is that their heart and treasure were elsewhere.

hurst

Thanks. It looks like I have a lot of reading to do.

 

[hurst]

jbsmith:

Thank you for the Bible information and recommendation. I’ll definitely keep it in mind. By the way, I read on amazon.com yesterday that a new edition of the NAB Study Bible is being released this month. The listing said that all the study notes have been completely rewritten. Have you heard about it? I’m wondering now if the study notes are being rewritten to make them more orthodox.

I have not heard that, but it sounds quite interesting, and I will check it out. Thanks

jbsmith:

I heard about the Vatican trying to clean up the seminaries, but I don’t know much about it. Is the Vatican being successful at this so far?

The evaluations are still in progress, but from what I’ve read it has caused a number of resignations and changes in curriculum, etc. At the same time, it has caused some to rise up in open dissent and anger! That is good in that it reveals where these people stand so we know who to avoid (and whose conversion to pray for).

jbsmith:

Isn’t it within the power of the Vatican to excommunicate individuals who just won’t repent and come in line with the Magisterium?

Yes, but there are so many people deserving of it that they could not get to them all. Some people have been excommunicated. But most of the time they will say little and rely on the fact that they do not have to pronounce it for it to be true. In other words, people are automatically excommunicated whenever they do certain grave sins like joining the freemasons, procuring an abortion, and more.

There is a bishop in Nebraska(?) who cares enough to deal with it, and has excommunicated whole groups of dissenting “Catholics” who were promoting all sorts of heresies and anticatholic positions. Of course, they unleashed the press on him etc., but he is tough and would not cave in. We need more bishops like that, but I think that by now you can better appreciate why we don’t have many strong bishops or priests. It sort of reminds me of the days of Israel when God would occasionally raise up various Judges to deliver them from woe. Once again we depend on God to raise up holy and intrepid souls to stand up for Christ and His Truth, within the borders of His Church.

hurst

 

[jbsmith]

I have not heard that, but it sounds quite interesting, and I will check it out. Thanks

If you find out anything, please let me know.

The evaluations are still in progress, but from what I’ve read it has caused a number of resignations and changes in curriculum, etc. At the same time, it has caused some to rise up in open dissent and anger! That is good in that it reveals where these people stand so we know who to avoid (and whose conversion to pray for).

So it seems Pope Benedict XVI has started taking steps then. I hope the necessary reforms can successfully be made. It’s something to pray for.

Yes, but there are so many people deserving of it that they could not get to them all. Some people have been excommunicated. But most of the time they will say little and rely on the fact that they do not have to pronounce it for it to be true. In other words, people are automatically excommunicated whenever they do certain grave sins like joining the freemasons, procuring an abortion, and more.

Well, I’m new to the faith and certainly not an expert, but I see a problem here. These people who are “automatically excommunicated” keep coming to Mass and participating in their parishes and participating in various ministries. Isn’t this doing more harm than good? Like the RCIA teacher at the parish I left who is teaching false doctrine to the students. That’s the way it seems to me, but please correct me if I’m misunderstanding the situation.

There is a bishop in Nebraska(?) who cares enough to deal with it, and has excommunicated whole groups of dissenting “Catholics” who were promoting all sorts of heresies and anticatholic positions. Of course, they unleashed the press on him etc., but he is tough and would not cave in. We need more bishops like that, but I think that by now you can better appreciate why we don’t have many strong bishops or priests. It sort of reminds me of the days of Israel when God would occasionally raise up various Judges to deliver them from woe. Once again we depend on God to raise up holy and intrepid souls to stand up for Christ and His Truth, within the borders of His Church

I’m glad about what this bishop is doing. I hope more bishops do the same. I’m still confused, though. Can’t the Vatican just clean house if the bishops, priest, etc. refuse to fall in line? Or would that cause a bigger crisis?

 

[hurst]

jbsmith:

Well, I’m new to the faith and certainly not an expert, but I see a problem here. These people who are “automatically excommunicated” keep coming to Mass and participating in their parishes and participating in various ministries. Isn’t this doing more harm than good?

That is a good question. But the more I myself have delved into it, the more I realize that one’s hands are tied. Many people are at fault, and it will take many people repenting for it to be fixed.

There is a parable regarding this:

Matthew 13:24 Another parable he proposed to them, saying: The kingdom of heaven is likened to a man that sowed good seeds in his field. 25 But while men were asleep, his enemy came and oversowed cockle among the wheat and went his way. 26 And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle. 27 And the servants of the goodman of the house coming said to him: Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle? 28 And he said to them: An enemy hath done this. And the servants said to him: Wilt thou that we go and gather it up? 29 And he said: No, lest perhaps gathering up the cockle, you root up the wheat also together with it. 30 Suffer both to grow until the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers: Gather up first the cockle, and bind it into bundles to burn, but the wheat gather ye into my barn.

jbsmith:

Like the RCIA teacher at the parish I left who is teaching false doctrine to the students. That’s the way it seems to me, but please correct me if I’m misunderstanding the situation.

Something has to be done about that by someone who knows what to do. You are too new to do more than express your concern to others, as you have done here. Perhaps you can find someone trustworthy in the other parishes who can report the matter to the Bishop.

jbsmith:

I’m still confused, though. Can’t the Vatican just clean house if the bishops, priest, etc. refuse to fall in line? Or would that cause a bigger crisis?

This is another good question, and I encourage you to continue to search for the answer, because it takes some experience to realize why things are the way they are.

When you are steering a large ship through the water, you have to take into account the inertia of the ship and the delay for propagating orders. And when you are in a large company, you can’t fire someone without having documented remedial efforts and the like. And you have to remember that long-term solutions are more important than temporary quick-fixes.

There are so many variables, and so many people and issues, that it can’t be done quickly. There are ecclesiastical courts, and generally speaking, any action can be appealed unless judged by the Pope himself. Recently there was a priest who was officially declared a heretic here in the U.S. It was a very rare declaration, and you can read about it here: SoCal clergyman convicted of heresy by Roman Catholic diocese. He didn’t care, and said it was “medieval”. So again, it is going to take some grit to get rid of these evils that even when blatantly acting against the Church have the gall to assert themselves as acceptable.

Welcome to boot camp. Hurry up and get your gear ready, because we need you. Learn the true faith, stay loyal to the Pope and official Church teachings, bear with the shortcomings of others, overcome your own faults, strive for holiness, live in Jesus through the Sacraments and Scripture, and in general prepare yourself for marching orders from on high in a spirit of service to God and neighbor. This is the Church Militant

hurst

 

[trogiah]

jbsmith:

So as a result of this backlash, he’s going too far in the opposite direction? That’s the impression I’m starting to get.

By the way, I know this is a bit off subject, but I’d like to ask one more question. In this same class session, he also told us that Jews are saved. He said that Jews don’t need to believe in Jesus as their Savior in order to spend eternity in Heaven. I find this hard to believe. One student in the class refuted him when he said this, but he told the student that Jews are saved because the Church says so. I haven’t found any clear answers online.

Perhaps the story of the rich young man (who was Jewish based on the context) may offer some insight. When he came up to Jesus and asked Him what he should do to inherit God’s kingdom, Jesus began by saying (more or less) “follow the Commandments and you will have life.” Then when the young man asked for something more Jesus told him “Sell all you have and follow me” The young man was unable to comply.

So this young man seems to have a claim on a measure of life, because of his committment to following the Commandments, but he was unable to obtain the fullness of life because he couldn’t let go of his possessions as an act of faith. The story leads me to accept that any Jewish person with a firm committment to keeping the commandments could be considered “saved” at least from eternal damnation. However, among the “saved” there are levels of attainment and only those who give themselves completely to Jesus attain the fullness of life.

I think I would say again about your instructors. They are not wrong to say “Jews who keep the Commandments are saved” but the emphasis of their teachings should be about how any and all of us can achieve the fullness of life.

peace

Jim

 

[itsjustdave1988]

he also told us that Jews are saved. He said that Jews don’t need to believe in Jesus as their Savior in order to spend eternity in Heaven. I find this hard to believe. One student in the class refuted him when he said this, but he told the student that Jews are saved because the Church says so

Where does the “Church say so?” Some members of the Church have said so, but the magisterium says something quite different.

Read Dominus Iesus . It is what the “Church says.” I can also gather some quotes for you later today from works by their favorite theologian, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.

 

[buffalo]

jbsmith:

Thank you. Again, these contradict what he told us in class.

Maybe the students need to start educating the teachers.