Catholic View of the Millennium

[Contarini]

I think much of that has to be viewed in an historical context.
I can certainly see the Christians of the first three centuries, watching thier fellow believers tortured, murdered, hunted down like animals, their churches and books burned, seeing thier situation as a “tribulaton” and looking foward to a golden age called the Millennium.

Yes. And somehow the more comfortable, worldly Christians of later centuries are supposed to have a clearer view of things

OK, fair enough, I would invoke the same argument on other points. . .

But it still bothers me–after all, Catholics typically appeal to these same second-century Fathers to support all kinds of doctrines against Protestant critiques. Yet somehow their eschatology is irrelevant?

I’m not arguing that premillennialism is the only orthodox view. It seems a bit redundant to me–I think a robust doctrine of the resurrection of the body does the same “work.” And perhaps that’s the answer. But I certainly don’t think that Augustine’s spiritualization is the last word. It has some serious flaws.

Edwin

 

[JustaServant]

Yes. And somehow the more comfortable, worldly Christians of later centuries are supposed to have a clearer view of things

OK, fair enough, I would invoke the same argument on other points. . .

But it still bothers me–after all, Catholics typically appeal to these same second-century Fathers to support all kinds of doctrines against Protestant critiques. Yet somehow their eschatology is irrelevant?

I’m not arguing that premillennialism is the only orthodox view. It seems a bit redundant to me–I think a robust doctrine of the resurrection of the body does the same “work.” And perhaps that’s the answer. But I certainly don’t think that Augustine’s spiritualization is the last word. It has some serious flaws.

Edwin

But the purpose of quoting those documents are to show the practices the Church teaches has ALWAYS been taught.
The various opinions of the ECFs on the details of eschatology are not quite the same thing, The ECFs had many opinions the Church does not teach today.
I’m not sure if there was a definate, pinned down, doctrinal view of Revelation prior to Augustine.

 

[mercytruth]

Protestants usually hold one of three eschatological views: pre-millennial, post-millennial, or a-millennial.

For those of you who are familiar with these terms, where does the Catholic view of the millennium fit into this scheme?

Thanks!

Dan

The Catholic teaching is a-millennial.

However, early church fathers such as Justin Martyr, Bishop Ireneaus, and Tertullian were millenialists.

 

[ajcstr]

The Catholic teaching is a-millennial.

However, early church fathers such as Justin Martyr, Bishop Ireneaus, and Tertullian were millenialists.

Yes, this is often an area of confusion according to “Will Catholics be Left Behind”, although some were millenialists, Olson contends that none believed in a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

But we digress, to the OP’s point, amillenial is pretty much the Catholic position today.

 

[mercytruth]

Yes, this is often an area of confusion according to “Will Catholics be Left Behind”, although some were millenialists, Olson contends that none believed in a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

But we digress, to the OP’s point, amillenial is pretty much the Catholic position today.

Olson could be incorrect. This is what Tertullian of the second century wrote, eventhough Tertullian thought that the ‘sudden change’ and ‘catching up’ was preceded by an ‘instanteous death’.

Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

But as you say, we digress.

God’s peace.

Tertullian on The Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 41.
newadvent.org/fathers/0316.htm

 

[ajcstr]

Olson could be incorrect. This is what Tertullian of the second century wrote, eventhough Tertullian thought that the ‘sudden change’ and ‘catching up’ was preceded by an ‘instanteous death’.

Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

But as you say, we digress.

God’s peace.

Tertullian on The Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 41.
newadvent.org/fathers/0316.htm

Right, but isn’t he referring to the actual 2nd coming at the end of time and not a rapture where some are taken so as not to endure a tribulation? I think that is the distinction Olson is making.

 

[mercytruth]

Right, but isn’t he referring to the actual 2nd coming at the end of time and not a rapture where some are taken so as not to endure a tribulation? I think that is the distinction Olson is making.

Well, it depends on what one refers to as the ‘tribulation’. If tribulation includes the persecution of the saints, then Tertullian is not speaking of a pre-tribulation rapture.

If tribulation refers to the judgements of God on the earth, while the saints are somehow protected either by a rapture, or a gathering into a figurative ark of safety, then that is another matter. (Such as in the days of judgement upon Pharoah and Egypt, while the Israelites were protected from such judgements).

Regardless, Tertullian spoke of a rapture of saints who are alive at the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Frankly, I think think this whole pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib argument by Protestants is silly.

 

[mlz]

Has anyone read The Secrets, Chastisement and Triumph (and what Heaven is Calling Us to Do) by Kelly Bowring??? I am reading it now and some parts are confusing me. This book deals more with the private revelations which I realize are not doctrinal views however can give light to Christians of a particular time in history. I am almost done with the book, but if anyone has read it all and could help me understand what the author is saying I’d appreciate it. (I have some idea, but unclear) For those interested in reading it I got it through Two Hearts Pres, LLC. (www.twoheartspress.com) Dr. Kelly Bowring is a Catholic theologian and popular speaker. He will be coming to the area I live soon so I thought I’d read his book before he came to understand better his message.

mlz

 

[happy2be]

I have to say that i am new to these boards and am somewhat saddened and dissapointed by the way in which people are so nasty here at times…I had posted a few other comments regarding this and those comment have been deleted??

I have not yelled or been rude…I am not anti catholic nor am I a “fundy”…just because i choose not to fill in my current faith association - I simply call myself a follower of Jesus these days because I do not want to be labelled and trated according to that label…

My first post in this thread simply was to encourage people to go to the first source of info re the millenial op topic - that is the book of Revelation - before reading a whole heap of books that other people have written about it…my comment was in no way intended to be nasty - just to simply encourage people to pick up God’s word and have a read for themselves…

Throughout the Bible God has spoken of prophetic things thru many prohets - and all of God’s promises have been fulfilled - and those that have not yet coome to pass - will also be fulfilled at the appointed time.

We can trust God to be faithful to His promises and His word.

All I wanted to say dear brothers and sisters in Christ is to read thru your Bible for yourself to check it out -so that when you then read other peoples beliefs and interpretation you can then compare it to God’s word.

i am saddened that my post was seen as anything other than a positive encouragement to read ones Bible - regardless of what Church you attend. It was in no way an attack on me believing Catholics do not own or read a Bible…

I do hope and pray that this message is not deleted because I feel it important to clarify - my intentions were never to accuse others only to encourage

 

[mercytruth]

I have to say that i am new to these boards and am somewhat saddened and dissapointed by the way in which people are so nasty here at times…I had posted a few other comments regarding this and those comment have been deleted??

I have not yelled or been rude…I am not anti catholic nor am I a “fundy”…just because i choose not to fill in my current faith association - I simply call myself a follower of Jesus these days because I do not want to be labelled and trated according to that label…

My first post in this thread simply was to encourage people to go to the first source of info re the millenial op topic - that is the book of Revelation - before reading a whole heap of books that other people have written about it…my comment was in no way intended to be nasty - just to simply encourage people to pick up God’s word and have a read for themselves…

Throughout the Bible God has spoken of prophetic things thru many prohets - and all of God’s promises have been fulfilled - and those that have not yet coome to pass - will also be fulfilled at the appointed time.

We can trust God to be faithful to His promises and His word.

All I wanted to say dear brothers and sisters in Christ is to read thru your Bible for yourself to check it out -so that when you then read other peoples beliefs and interpretation you can then compare it to God’s word.

i am saddened that my post was seen as anything other than a positive encouragement to read ones Bible - regardless of what Church you attend. It was in no way an attack on me believing Catholics do not own or read a Bible…

I do hope and pray that this message is not deleted because I feel it important to clarify - my intentions were never to accuse others only to encourage

As a Catholic revert, who learned the value of holy scriptures, and early church fathers before my return, I can appreciate what you are saying.

One of the difficulties with Revealtion chapter 20, is that it is a a prophetic chapter. There is always more than one way to interpret, or misunderstand prophetic scriptures. If there were more scriptural writings on this subject, then I think an individual could be more asservtive in their interpretation, or understanding.

As it is, we have to fall back to the early church fathers, who are also a source of apostolic tradition. Yet, in this case, it is the early church fathers tradition of interpreting this particular scripture as a literal millenium, and not necessarily apostolic. Unless, Papias’ reference to ‘John’ as being the source of this interpretation, is the same John of the book of Revelation.

Other than that, we have the scripture where ‘one day is as a thousand years’. Some early church fathers equated the 7th day as being a thousand years of rest for the saints and for this earth. Whether this concept is independent of Rev.20, or an adjunct to it, I do not think we know.

I am intrigued with the number 8. As it represents so many things in the holy scriptures.
The fact that Jesus Christ was raised on the eighth day, or the day after the 7th day, or Sabbath, and that his resurrection may represent the beginning of the new creation is thought provoking for myself.

That and the only feast day, or holy day that will be celebrated in restored Israel is Succoth, which may be a prophetic looking forward celebration to the new heavens and the new earth when God will make his dwelling with us.

God’s peace.

 

[JustaServant]

I have to say that i am new to these boards and am somewhat saddened and dissapointed by the way in which people are so nasty here at times…I had posted a few other comments regarding this and those comment have been deleted??

I have not yelled or been rude…I am not anti catholic nor am I a “fundy”…just because i choose not to fill in my current faith association - I simply call myself a follower of Jesus these days because I do not want to be labelled and trated according to that label…

My first post in this thread simply was to encourage people to go to the first source of info re the millenial op topic - that is the book of Revelation - before reading a whole heap of books that other people have written about it…my comment was in no way intended to be nasty - just to simply encourage people to pick up God’s word and have a read for themselves…

Throughout the Bible God has spoken of prophetic things thru many prohets - and all of God’s promises have been fulfilled - and those that have not yet coome to pass - will also be fulfilled at the appointed time.

We can trust God to be faithful to His promises and His word.

All I wanted to say dear brothers and sisters in Christ is to read thru your Bible for yourself to check it out -so that when you then read other peoples beliefs and interpretation you can then compare it to God’s word.

i am saddened that my post was seen as anything other than a positive encouragement to read ones Bible - regardless of what Church you attend. It was in no way an attack on me believing Catholics do not own or read a Bible…

I do hope and pray that this message is not deleted because I feel it important to clarify - my intentions were never to accuse others only to encourage

First. I think you need to have thicker skin. When you write something like

do not be afraid to sit down and read your bible…

the logical conclusion drawn with those words is an assumption Catholics are afraid of reading thier Bibles. In the future, I suggest you think before you type. Since we are not face to face, it is difficult to assertain exactly what you mean.
As for the deleted posts, they might have nothing to do with you. Many posts disappear for many reasons, that is up to the moderator. You might want to ask Eric about that. If he didn’t contact you, it might not have had anything to do with you. Maybe a troll or a spammer.
Now, back to the OP.
If you believe in a literal interpretation of Revelation, then please explain below:

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

From the PROTESTANT KJV.

**The Greek word for ‘signified’ is σημαίνω or sēmainō. It means to give a sign, to signify, indicate. In other words, it is a book of signs and symbols. **

 

[Contarini]

I have not yelled or been rude.

Actually you were rude. I accept that you didn’t mean to be. But when discussing how to interpret anything, it’s rude to say “just read it,” because that implies that those who disagree with you haven’t done so. Obviously if you’re recommending some source that is reasonably likely to be unknown, then it’s fine to say “I suggest that you read it.” But in a discussion among serious Christians, knowledge of the Bible should be presupposed.

My first post in this thread simply was to encourage people to go to the first source of info re the millenial op topic - that is the book of Revelation - before reading a whole heap of books that other people have written about it…my comment was in no way intended to be nasty

I accept that it wasn’t intended to be. But actually it was, because the implication is that people are reading about Revelation and not reading it. You don’t know that. It’s presumptuous and rude to assume it.

The statement was particularly ironic given that you skated over some of the details of Rev. 20, by saying that it includes people other than those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus.

Edwin

 

[pablope]

I

I have not yelled or been rude…I am not anti catholic nor am I a “fundy”…just because i choose not to fill in my current faith association - I simply call myself a follower of Jesus these days because I do not want to be labelled and trated according to that label…