Catholic View on Pacificsm?

[ndeparis88]

Greetings and peace be with you ndeparis88;

I believe to earn the title of pacifist, you need to be in places of conflict, read the Rachael Corrie story……

electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml
On 16 March 2003 in Rafah, occupied Gaza, 23-year-old American peace activist Rachel Corrie from Olympia, Washington, was murdered by an Israeli bulldozer driver. Rachel was in Gaza opposing the bulldozing of a Palestinian home as a volunteer with the International Solidarity Movement.

Rachel and seven other ISM activists were in the Hi Es Salam area of Rafah, Gaza, trying to prevent the razing of Palestinian land and property. Present were two Israeli occupation army bulldozers and a tank. For a period of two hours, the activists played ‘cat and mouse’, attempting to prevent the illegal demolitions by physically blocking the passage of the two bulldozers.

Blessings

Eric

I apologize what I meant that in saying that in the U.S it’s easy to be a pacifist without understanding what it’s like for people in hostile countries to be pacifist. I still think if one is a pacifist defending someone who is in danger and you not doing anything about it is cowardice.

 

[hxcCatholic413]

If the Church in ages past held your view, then you very well be Muslim right now, and speaking Arabic. The difference between you and I, is that I am prolife on the part of potential victims. You are prolife on the part of sick demented perps, who gave up their rights, when they raped, murdered, robbed, or molested. I think the side I take, is more in keeping with the Church to protect Innocent life, And society, from those that would by their Evil behavior, cause disorder and chaos.

you sir are angry…I’ll be praying for your conversion God Bless!

For the record I assume your a soldier based upon the fact that you mentioned your location was Iraq…hmmm that is all

 

[hxcCatholic413]

I do think people generally like the idea of being able to be nonviolent, but I think the world we live in today really doesn’t leave room to be a** die hard pacifist**. Friends I have to say that Jesus was a pacifist and that just isn’t true. When he came into the temple and threw the merchant men there he didn’t do it right away, he actually went away and came back the next day and then ruin the place. So this shows he though about it and had the time to do so. It shows he was human to and he dished out some form of a temper. Also if he was a pacifist why does he stand firm and not hear another point of view pacifistic can’t real shun people away because that denotes a defensive position and that’s really contrary to being a pacifist.

it actually does…people have a hard time conforming to Christ as you can see by the posters who disagree with me. They rather preach hate and anger while I stay close to God and preach out of love of thy neighbor and of God. It’s a sad world out there…a world where one can justify murder is an ideology w/o God. God Bless!

 

[hxcCatholic413]

It certainly is a sad world when one can justify the murder of another and say that Christ inspires them…hmmmmm

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I still think if one is a pacifist defending someone who is in danger and you not doing anything about it is cowardice.

Being a pacifist does not mean walking away from danger and problems, I believe to be a pacifist you have to do something.

I am a Street Pastor in the UK, this church led initiative was started by a minister in Jamaica some years ago. Gangs of hungry, poor kids were going around with guns, and doing drugs, a friend of a minister was shot and killed, he asked himself what is the church doing about this gun culture.

The minister along with a few parishioners went out on the streets to be with the gangs of gun wielding kids. I am not sure how you can reason with a hungry kid with a gun. So many people were getting shot and killed, many just young kids themselves, the police and communities seemed so powerless.

The minister’s only defence was prayer and the armour of God, somehow this did make a difference, and they did help reduce gun crime.

Blessings

Eric

 

[StTommyMore]

It certainly is a sad world when one can justify the murder of another and say that Christ inspires them…hmmmmm

Murder and capital punishment are not the same thing.

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. [R] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. (Romans 13:1-5)

The statte has the authority to punish criminals.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Greetings and peace be with you ndeparis88;

I believe to earn the title of pacifist, you need to be in places of conflict, read the Rachael Corrie story……

electronicintifada.net/v2/article1248.shtml
On 16 March 2003 in Rafah, occupied Gaza, 23-year-old American peace activist Rachel Corrie from Olympia, Washington, was murdered by an Israeli bulldozer driver. Rachel was in Gaza opposing the bulldozing of a Palestinian home as a volunteer with the International Solidarity Movement.

Rachel and seven other ISM activists were in the Hi Es Salam area of Rafah, Gaza, trying to prevent the razing of Palestinian land and property. Present were two Israeli occupation army bulldozers and a tank. For a period of two hours, the activists played ‘cat and mouse’, attempting to prevent the illegal demolitions by physically blocking the passage of the two bulldozers.

Blessings

Eric

I have no sympathy for Rachel Corrie. The Israelis are only acting in self-defense. Corrie and her fellow troublemakers were warned. If they didn’t leave, that is their fault. Your article also neglected to mention the fact that the houses the Israelis demolished were being used to smuggle arms to terrorists.

Also, if you really want to malign the Israeli armed forces, get a better link next time. Those before and after photos are of 2 different bulldozers at 2 different times. If you want more information about what really happened, check out the link below.

peacewithrealism.org/corrie.htm

As for capital punishment, it is not immoral and never will be. The Catechism of the Council of Trent called a just execution, “An act of paramount obedience to the 5th Commandment.”

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you starshiptrooper;

I have no sympathy for Rachel Corrie. The Israelis are only acting in self-defense.

It appears that your idea of self defence is Israelis with a tank on one side, and unarmed Palestinians trying to defend the homes they live in, on the other side.
It does not appear to be Israelis acting in self defence, were the Palestinians trying to shot at the tanks or bulldozers at the time? It appears that only unarmed peace activists were trying to stand between the bulldozers and the homes.

I cannot judge the rights and wrongs, but Jews have displaced the Palestinian people over the last 60 years or so. Most of the Palestinians in Gaza are living below the poverty line according to UNICEF. Israel has blockaded Gaza, the tunnels are a major supply route for food as well as guns, people living in poverty are often pushed to take desperate measures.
unicef.org/infobycountry/oPt_50318.html

Blessings,

Eric

 

[starshiptrooper]

Greetings and peace be with you starshiptrooper;

I wish the same to you.

It appears that your idea of self defence is Israelis with a tank on one side, and unarmed Palestinians trying to defend the homes they live in, on the other side.
It does not appear to be Israelis acting in self defence, were the Palestinians trying to shot at the tanks or bulldozers at the time? It appears that only unarmed peace activists were trying to stand between the bulldozers and the homes.

The Israelis tear these houses down because the terrorists use them. Without houses, the terrorists have harder time butchering more innocent civilians. Thus, the Israelis are only trying to defend themselves.

I cannot judge the rights and wrongs, but Jews have displaced the Palestinian people over the last 60 years or so. Most of the Palestinians in Gaza are living below the poverty line according to UNICEF. Israel has blockaded Gaza, the tunnels are a major supply route for food as well as guns, people living in poverty are often pushed to take desperate measures.
unicef.org/infobycountry/oPt_50318.html

Blessings,

Eric

The Jews are in the right, God gave them the land. This blockade ensures that no more weapons will be used by Hamas to kill Israeli civilians. They allow food through, but nothing that will be used to hurt Israelis.

 

[FightingFat]

I wish the same to you. :thumbsup:The Israelis tear these houses down because the terrorists use them. Without houses, the terrorists have harder time butchering more innocent civilians. Thus, the Israelis are only trying to defend themselves.
The Jews are in the right, God gave them the land. This blockade ensures that no more weapons will be used by Hamas to kill Israeli civilians. They allow food through, but nothing that will be used to hurt Israelis.

Have the Palestinians any right to exist there in your opinion?

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

I am not going to dive into international politics, capital punishment or abortion.

I was raised by a self-described pacifist. Pacifism, rightly, is not passive. The root is peace. You can defend innocents and be a pacifist. You can protect your wife and be a pacifist.

The question a pacifist ought to ask is not, “what should I avoid doing?” but rather, “How can I act?” Our models for modern pacifism include Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi, and many of the early pro-life workers. You cannot look the other way and call yourself peaceful. Neither can you address hate with hate. “Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.” When you defend an innocent it cannot be out of hatred for the aggressor, but must instead be out of love for the innocent. And indeed, though it is just to hold the aggressor accountable for his actions, it is also necessary to forgive. By forgive, I certainly do not mean that you should not ensure that he is held accountable to the full extent of the law, I mean rather that you should love him. Want salvation for him.

The problem is that it is difficult to know where the line between necessary defense and peaceful address is. It as a problem that every Christian, whether a self-described pacifist or not, struggles with. There are many issues- some have been raised in this discussion- where an evil cannot be ignored. The question then, is how to act. There is legitimate debate on that question. The true pacifist, however, will not say that he cannot act but that he must act with peace as an end. He will try to stop the rapist with minimal violence. He will see to it that the rapist is held accountable in law. There is nothing peaceful about watching a violence take place and not acting. True pacifism is courageous. Think of the freedom riders who faced terrible violence. Think of Christ, who suffered and died. (Perhaps some will be insulted that I claim Him as a model for pacifists, but hear me out.) The true pacifist always acts. He may suffer violence for his cause, but the cause must be non-violence. He does not, therefore, watch violence silently. He chooses his actions carefully, and he knows that violence begets violence. He must also know that inaction is gravely evil and sometimes non-violence means using less force than you would care to and only enough to stop a violence.

 

[hxcCatholic413]

Murder and capital punishment are not the same thing.

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. [R] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. (Romans 13:1-5)

The statte has the authority to punish criminals.

If you are so in love w/ the Government do you support abortion? The state supports it…picking and choosing the state’s laws is the same as a Catholic who picks and choose God’s laws…similar to those that believe in death penalty, but reject abortion…hmmmmm

 

[hxcCatholic413]

I am not going to dive into international politics, capital punishment or abortion.

I was raised by a self-described pacifist. Pacifism, rightly, is not passive. The root is peace. You can defend innocents and be a pacifist. You can protect your wife and be a pacifist.

The question a pacifist ought to ask is not, “what should I avoid doing?” but rather, “How can I act?” Our models for modern pacifism include Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi, and many of the early pro-life workers. You cannot look the other way and call yourself peaceful. Neither can you address hate with hate. “Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.” When you defend an innocent it cannot be out of hatred for the aggressor, but must instead be out of love for the innocent. And indeed, though it is just to hold the aggressor accountable for his actions, it is also necessary to forgive. By forgive, I certainly do not mean that you should not ensure that he is held accountable to the full extent of the law, I mean rather that you should love him. Want salvation for him.

The problem is that it is difficult to know where the line between necessary defense and peaceful address is. It as a problem that every Christian, whether a self-described pacifist or not, struggles with. There are many issues- some have been raised in this discussion- where an evil cannot be ignored. The question then, is how to act. There is legitimate debate on that question. The true pacifist, however, will not say that he cannot act but that he must act with peace as an end. He will try to stop the rapist with minimal violence. He will see to it that the rapist is held accountable in law. There is nothing peaceful about watching a violence take place and not acting. True pacifism is courageous. Think of the freedom riders who faced terrible violence. Think of Christ, who suffered and died. (Perhaps some will be insulted that I claim Him as a model for pacifists, but hear me out.) The true pacifist always acts. He may suffer violence for his cause, but the cause must be non-violence. He does not, therefore, watch violence silently. He chooses his actions carefully, and he knows that violence begets violence. He must also know that inaction is gravely evil and sometimes non-violence means using less force than you would care to and only enough to stop a violence.

AMEN!!! Finally someone answers the question!!!

 

[starshiptrooper]

Have the Palestinians any right to exist there in your opinion?

No, God promised the land to the Jews.

@ Beth Cecilia

I think most of your post was very reasonable.

However, I disagree that violence begets violence. The Japanese have been extremely peaceful after the US dropped 2 A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

My thinking on pacifism and the use of violence is best summed up in the words of Robert Heinlein.

The idea that “violence doesn’t solve anything” is a historically untrue and immoral doctrine. Violence, force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedoms. (Starship Troopers, Robert Heinlein, 1959)

 

[StTommyMore]

No, God promised the land to the Jews.

@ Beth Cecilia

I think most of your post was very reasonable.

However, I disagree that violence begets violence. The Japanese have been extremely peaceful after the US dropped 2 A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

My thinking on pacifism and the use of violence is best summed up in the words of Robert Heinlein.

The promise was not to the Jews alone, but to all the Semitic peoples.

 

[starshiptrooper]

The promise was not to the Jews alone, but to all the Semitic peoples.

After the death of Moses, the servant of the Lord, the Lord said to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ minister, "Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, into the land which I am giving to them, to the people of Israel. (Joshua, 1:1-3)

As we can see, God promised the land specifically to the Israelites.

 

[StTommyMore]

As we can see, God promised the land specifically to the Israelites.

I am afraid you are mistaken. The initial promise of land was made to Abram (before tha name change), therefore the promise was made to all semitic peoples.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you starshiptrooper;

God promised the land to the Jews.

The Jews were given a blessing and a curse regarding the land of Israel.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."

---

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

However, I disagree that violence begets violence. The Japanese have been extremely peaceful after the US dropped 2 A-bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

What has the US learned since WW2, that might is right, I don’t think all the innocent victims killed by the US in Vietnam Afghanistan, Iraq, would see them as the good guys.

Blessings

Eric

 

[starshiptrooper]

I am afraid you are mistaken. The initial promise of land was made to Abram (before tha name change), therefore the promise was made to all semitic peoples.

Look at Genesis 21:12. God says, “… For through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” Thus, when God is talking about descendants and inheriting the land, he is referring to descendants of Abraham’s son Isaac.

 

[StTommyMore]

Look at Genesis 21:12. God says, “… For through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” Thus, when God is talking about descendants and inheriting the land, he is referring to descendants of Abraham’s son Isaac.

Genesis 13 is the initial promise of land…time to ditch you Protestant Zionism. Do you also believe that the Eschatalogical Israel is to be identified with the political state?