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jpelham
Guest
In fact I have seldom had the pleasure of discussing faith with any but Calvinists since I became Catholic 9 years ago. I wish I were joining you for lunch.
Joe
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Joe
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SPH1
Guest
But as I recall, the LCMS still officially views the Papacy as the antichrist? Which is a matter of faith.
I guess the LCMS’s distinction is an “historical identification” of the papacy as the antichrist. Whereas the more “conservative?” WELS pretty much calls the Pope the antichrist, thinking they hold to the original Lutheran articles.
My site has been down for sometime, but I had a page with proof links for various Protestant groups that considered the Pope the antichrist, the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon, or Catholics not Christians or saved. Had one for the LCMS (and possibly an email from them confirming). Can’t find the link right now.
Caused a little stir some years ago when I brought this up with the Free Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) and their strick adherence to the WCF and it’s declaration of the Pope being the antichrist. A few couldn’t believe it were still so. It was.
Unfortunately for some, they virtually built that belief into their confessions as a matter of faith, and would be difficult to back down. They are way out on a limb.
And the problem with the term “anti-Christ” isd the more modern and perahps radical groups who mean “end-times beast”. If one sees the term anti-Christ simply as opposed to Christ or His teachings, I think that is more in line with, at least, what was meant. But you are right that it also has a dated, historical application. I can’t imagine any reason to describe Pope John Paul II, for example, as being anti-Christ.
I would esteem him as being the greatest Christian leader of my lifetime. Of course, that doesn’t mean I’m ready to call him the Vicar of Christ either.
Finally, none of that is reason to claim that the ordination of Catholic clergy is invalid. And if a Lutheran claims that it is, then I would ask him/her why Father Martin was not re-ordained.
Jon
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Wretched_Man
Guest
God has a universal church but it is not a catholic church or a baptist church or a pentecostal church…it is is his church and his …one body…btw the bible does teach contrary to much of the catholic teaching…as I attended a cathaolic church for many years in my former days.
You are not saved and your name written in heaven becuse your association to catholicism or traditions sent down by your parents or because you say a prayer and do certain rites.
It is by grace your saved through faith this not of yourselves it is a gift from God not of works so no man cn boast…Eph 2:8
There is only one mediator between man and God , the man christ Jesus 1 Tim 2:5
…just a few verses to show the contradiction to catholic teaching…
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Walden_Pond
Guest
The CCC explains it this way (818): “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such a separation] and in them brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts with respect and affection as brothers…All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”
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jpelham
Guest
If Scripture appears to contradict the beliefs of your ‘former days,’ the beliefs you left behind were not of the Catholic Church. I politely urge you, if you wish to discuss this with Catholics, to learn what the Catholic Church objectively teaches, and why. Few cradle Catholics, perhaps understandably, take the time to do this. I have had the pleasure of discussing faith with many Protestants who were born into the Church, but have yet to meet one whose understanding of Catholic belief was accurate.
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GLam8833
Guest
As a former baptist, I can say that Catholics welcome believers
of ALL denominations! As my RCIA instructor told me, he would
not refuse administering the body of Christ because, as one
priest explains “he/she may have been led here(by God)
providentially”!
I have much to praise the Catholic church, because of
the sacraments, especially the sacrament of confession.
I am a musician by necessity, please see my member’s
profile.
of ALL denominations! As my RCIA instructor told me, he would
not refuse administering the body of Christ because, as one
priest explains “he/she may have been led here(by God)
providentially”!
I have much to praise the Catholic church, because of
the sacraments, especially the sacrament of confession.
I am a musician by necessity, please see my member’s
profile.
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10_26
Guest
So are you saying your parish administors Holy Communion to any Christian of any denomination?
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Darran
Guest
They may be led to teach in some way for the betterment of souls, but hierarchially they are laymen in robes.
Good Lord.
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Darran
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Hounchell1945
Guest
Goodness… How does one begin to respond too you and this post…???
I would suggest that you take one issue of the ones you have listed and begin a forum with it and allow people here to take the scriptures and deal with your accusations…
If one was to take each of the single scriptures which you have listed, (far too many in number for me to deal with all of them in one post)… and then read other scriptures which deal with the very same subjects that you have listed… I do not think that you could maintain your view or opinions which you have claimed…
The statements you have made regarding the subjects you mentioned are not new ones to the Catholic Church. They have been discussed and dissected from theologians many times through the centuries… and they have always been found to be impossible to accept because of the other Scriptures which go against the very same conclusions you have listed.
I do not think that my mere words can convince you, as I feel it is quite possible that you have been taught those conclusions from people whom you highly admire and believe in…
But I can say there are many other scriptures which I feel that if you would take the time to read and discuss you would find it most beneficial too you. I believe you are sincere in your conclusions but I do not believe that you have been exposed to the totality of Scriptures which are within the very same bible you have accepted as a means for you to the Truths of God…
Please take the time to take each issue, one at a time and bring up a new post so you can be exposed to some constructive discussion on these very important doctrines you have made mention too…
There are many wonderful scriptures which deal with these issues and I think it would really be good for you to encounter them… one at a time…
PAX
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WTSherman
Guest
To put it bluntly, the Church’s feelings are that any Christian faith who has branched off from us is not legitimate. The problem has been, over the past 2000 years everybody who wanted to do one thing or the other morally just made a new religion instead of following the path of Jesus.
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Hounchell1945
Guest
I do not know your education background, and I certainly do not want to belittle you if you have not been exposed to the basic forms of “Theology and Philosophy”…
However rest assured that I am not correcting you per say… but to merely attempt to put some new forms of thought forward too you so that this mystery might appear a bit clearer and lead you closer to how many other Catholics, who have had a better opportunity to form other aspects of this fantastic subject.
But it is interesting that you have formed the view of the “mystery” of the Eucharist…
but it might not have to be a complete mystery for you. Though no one can take the total mystery out of it…
Theology is primary the study of that which God has revealed… Period!!
A person goes to theology to find out what God has told us… no more, no less.
We know that God spake to man through many different means, though we mainly know of these communications from the written history of those actual events…
The Written word… The bible and the writings of the early fathers, and historians of those times of God’s communication to man…
We believe that Jesus was and is God… St. John makes that very plain in his writings.
Jesus was the word, and the word was with and was God… nothing which was made was not made without him…
And God said, “let US make man in OUR imgage…”
Thus we have revelation from the old and the new testaments of the fact that Jesus was God and he created with God from their “mere word”…
The spoken Word of God created… out of nothing came something… and this happened because the word was spoken… A sound and with it, Power that the world has never seen the likes before and since…
Jesus, became a man, and he spoke words… and his words created… his words created forgiveness of sin, when he said, “thy sins are forgiven”… his words brough life to the dead.
when he said:" Arise little girl" Lazarus come forth!! and though they were dead, the word broke their death and they became alive again… thus we have the "Power of God’s spoken word to create that which no other person’s word has done or can do…
Now after supper had ended… he said some more words, words of creation, life and power.
"He said…"take this bread, take this cup as it IS my body and blood… and the power of his word made it so… The creation power in his word created a new essencence for the bread and wine…
Our normal senses, can only observe and deduct the objective of that which we perceive…
(this is the philosophy of the subject) We can look, touch tasete, etc… use our knowledge or education and attempt to understand the essensence of an object but we can not.
We can only perceive the object… However not the total essensence as the essenses in truth is that which God makes it.
An example would say more than I can…
God has sent Angels to our world many times… but they have always came to us, as the object of a “human Man”… Our perception would be merely what we see and observe within in our senses… and it would always be " A Man as the object but… his true essensce is that of an Angel…
We are not able to perceive an Angel as his essensce is hidden from obvious view…
Therefore, making a long reply shorter… you can look at the Eucharist in the same light.
The bread and wine become the body and blood through the power of the word of God…
And as Jesus prepared to leave this world he bestoyed that power to the apostles who passed that same power from generation to generation to our very own priests…
He instructed the Apostles at the last supper… “Do this” and thus we have been given a wonderful gift of his life… which flows in our souls… so that we too, can claim as St. Peter claimed… “For we are partakers of the divine nature”… Or call out “It is not I who lives but christ who lives within me” As St. Paul stated…
and never forget that God in the form of Jesus said:
He who does NOT eat my body and drink my BLOOD will NOT have my LIFE in them…
I hope this might help and comfort you in your faith walk…
PAX…
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Wretched_Man
Guest
Hey JP, I don’t recall saying, scripture contradicted my beliefs, which by the way, should never be contingent on a specific church doctrine or beliefs, but on the what the word declares. I stated that scripture contradicts much of what the catholic church teaches. I understand not all churches are the same in their doctrine, but when it comes to praying to Mary and the saints for many things , among which are, guidance, wisdom and help in life and believing that the priest is the mediator between man and God and that praying people out of purgatory etc…etc…just to name a few…I believe these are contrary to biblical doctrine.
Please direct me to a link that will briefly state your statement of faith for catholic churches. I have went to and discussed with active members this subject.
regards Rob
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jncarlos007
Guest
That’s interesting, because that’s pretty much how protestants describe Catholics, but without the fancy terms.
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jpelham
Guest
You said you were formerly Catholic, and that the Scriptures contradict those former beliefs.
The ‘Catechism of the Catholic Church’ contains all essential Catholic beliefs, and the reasons for them. Your comments indicate that you were not taught Catholic doctrine before you abandoned the Church. Of this you can be certain, that virtually everything your Protestant friends tell you about Catholic belief is shared with the best intentions, but is grossly mistaken.
Consider Jesus’ command to His disciples, to personally mediate forgiveness of sins: “Whose sins ***you ***forgive are forgiven; whose sins ***you ***retain are retained.” (Jn. 20:23) Who has the authority to stop this practice established by God HImself? Are we less needy than all Christians of the 1st 15 centuries of the Church?
Now I must ask you to excuse me. I have a large and busy family that allows less time for this than I would like, and I have exhausted it. When you are ready to undertake an objective critique of the Catholic Church, you will read the Catechism.
Christ’s peace be with you, and may HIs grace, which alone affords salvation, draw you ever closer to Him.
Joe
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jncarlos007
Guest
Would that be because you wouldn’t think a person would remain a protestant if they had an accurate understanding of the Catholic belief?
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jncarlos007
Guest
My one issue. I have read the Bible, parts of it many times, and never encountered a church service described the way it is performed in a Catholic Church.
I have nothing against Catholicism and in fact there are many elements, especial aesthetically that I find very spiritual and moving. It is both powerful and profound. Something shown to me by one of my closest spiritual friends. We agree on every issue we have discussed theologically,though we do not discuss forms of worship. Or haven’t yet at least.
With that said, I just cannot accept your argument. I could detail my reasons for saying this but we both know that would be pointless, so we will just go with my mind being clouded from the true truth. And Christians will remain, as planned, divided.
J
jncarlos007
Guest
And yet Jesus spoke in parables, indicating a familiarity with symbolism and metaphor
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