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jpelham
Guest
I suspect that Rob’s intent from the start was to save a few souls from the clutches of ‘Rome.’
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rfournier103
Guest
Seems you may have a point, jpellham. Holy Spirit is Taboo in the Catholic Church? What???
I have no idea where some people get their ideas from… Absolutely amazing…
Why would you expect Jose to jettison the Catholic Catechism in a discussion with you?
His personal convictions are going to be formed by the faith he was raised in, and now as an adult confesses.
In your next paragraph you mention Father Martin Luther. If you were to have a discussion with me about my personal convictions, I promise you that Luther’s Small and Large Catechisms will be part of that discussion, as well as the rest of the Lutheran confessions, for the same reason the Catholic Catechism is for Jose.
If there is to be an argument about whose communion is “set in place by man”, the Catholic Church has an historical advantage. And Luther as much as said so. He says:
Jon
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
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jncarlos007
Guest
And how authoritative is this footnote? I ask because it basically seems to reiterate the same argument, with specificity toward some school or publications, but adds that salvation comes from being a member of a/the church, except when someone doesn’t want, know, or have access to the church, and then as long as they are a good person and believe there is a God they will be saved.
“Outside the Church there is no salvation.”
*Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church
Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.*
So I am still stuck in the same position as before. All of these writings, declarations, councils, etc, seem to be saying that John 14:6 is not applicable in the literal sense and that you cannot be saved by faith and grace, but by membership, or, that you can be saved, even if you know nothing of Christ, but are in severe trouble if you have heard of the conceptual organization “church” but elect not to be a member.
Perhaps I am wrong on this, but the view seems inconsistent, especially if it is considered divinely inspired, but even if it is only taken into account the thousands of years of debating
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Jehannette
Guest
Not at all. In the Middle Ages, there was a situation of young children who had been baptized who, during encounters with the Moors, were kidnapped and taken away from their parents and families to be raised Muslim in Islamic lands. What was the fate of these children? They were sacramentally baptized, which means that they were children of the Triune God, yet they were destined to be raised as infidels in a false religion. Was such their fault? Were they destined to fall from grace? Would they be culpable for having embraced Islam?
The scholastic theologians addressed these questions. The Fathers at the Council of Florence understood “these types” of scenarios, which may have led them to declare:
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jncarlos007
Guest
But, you see, therein exists both the appeal and the stumbling block of Catholicism, in my view.
The long and storied tradition of the church, its history, creeds, and declarations are considered, debated, prayed upon, and declared.
In a positive way, given one vital contingency, this predetermined and pre-decided dogma frees the individual to focus on their devotion to and relationship with God through Christ. I see this as an amazing thing. Of course the one contingency is the proposition that one must accept as infallible the Church’s positions, which have been shown on occasion to be political, oppressive, ignorant, or out-dated, and have been subject to revision and clarification over time.
The alternative is the inevitable individualism that is the result of protestantism, through which there are now hundreds, if not thousands of individualized churches that all think they have the clear understanding of divine revelation.
I am a believer in one Divine Truth of God. But everyone claims to have access to this truth, and validate their propositions through various means, scriptural and otherwise. Either our understanding of this truth is incomplete (probable) or someone/thing has this truth and the rest of us just don’t see it (possible)
The question is, how do we discern this truth and is it important that we do? (I am not including the idea of grace and salvation. The truth of our reconciliation to God through Christ is non-negotiable. I have enough faith in God and confidence in the faculties He has given me to know this)
If these denominations/factions/ divisions are NOT important overall then we should begin to act that way
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jncarlos007
Guest
I could not disagree with you more on this point. The church did not give us the Bible.The acceptance or validation of the Bible after it was already recognized should in no way, and would in no way, grant it more authority than it already had/has.
I grant that you may had meant something else when you wrote that however
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jncarlos007
Guest
I ask this only because I am interested, not because I am taking a stand for or against your position,but, what do you make of the idea that “My personal theology must be confined on the deposit of the Faith given by Jesus to the Apostles and from the Apostles to the Fathers. My theological ideas must be accountable to the ongoing authority of the Church” when those concepts and theologies are changed over time?
I would contend, while not speaking for Jose, that you will get the answer that Catholics truly believe; that the deposit of faith has not changed since Pentecost 33AD, that there has been, over time, development of doctrine, which is reflected in the writings of the Church.
As a Lutheran, in some ways, I welcome this development, as the ecumenical trend of Rome has brought forth convergent fruits with Lutherans, the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification being an example. But then, these kinds of things can be a two-edged sword.
Jon
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GLam8833
Guest
Hi,
The Catholic church is the only one with
the seven Sacraments given by God
for the reception of the “Promises
of God” and by which we can “Partake
of the Divine Nature”(2 Pet. 1:4)
A sacrament is an outward sign of the
Grace of God effected in one’s life.
When I was still outside the Catholic
church, I fasted and prayed and took
communion, but it was not enough,
I had to use the sacraments to take
hold of “the Divine Life” promised by
God thru Jesus.
The Catholic church is the only one with
the seven Sacraments given by God
for the reception of the “Promises
of God” and by which we can “Partake
of the Divine Nature”(2 Pet. 1:4)
A sacrament is an outward sign of the
Grace of God effected in one’s life.
When I was still outside the Catholic
church, I fasted and prayed and took
communion, but it was not enough,
I had to use the sacraments to take
hold of “the Divine Life” promised by
God thru Jesus.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
Mostly what Jon said.
When I look at the history of the Church I can’t help but see that there are Sees (Original Churches that have held authority) that have had a continued legacy of Apostolic succession and teaching.
There is a continuity for the Deposit of the Faith and the Defense of the Faith. Breaking from Christ’s Church is nothing new. It has been done since the beginning, we can see from the Apostles’ letters that some Churches were deviating from the teaching consistent with the Revelation of Christ. The Arians, Donatists, Pelagians, etc, etc.
So I struggle with the evolution of the Church? Of course! A lot more than I care to admit.
I agree a lot with Dominus Iesus, Dei Verbum, the Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification and others.
I am heavily influenced by some of Luther’s theology, and by Aquinas and Augustine.
See, I was raised Catholic and remained Catholic until College. Then, I went… well there is not one word to describe… Then I roamed around Protestant denominations for over 12-15 years, and then last year I came back Home.
I don’t see Protestantism/Reformed as their fault alone (
I’m sorry I love to pun that term, all in good nature thou). If you look at my posts here, you’ll see that I believe we (Catholic Church) are as much at fault as the schismatic movements (In the general sense and I’m not using it universally). Notice I said movements and not single out one person. This didn’t happen overnight, it developed for hundreds of years, you have to go back before 1054 (East and West Schism) to truly get to the root of it.When I say that I must confine and account my theology within the Catholic Church, it is because I can’t let my pride get in the way.
, that is a no brainer for me. So whenever I want to interpret things that are contrary to what the Church teaches I must look into the root of why am I doing it? The Church keeps me humble, as Christ is in it.
While going through denominations, I missed 2 things (A LOT):
- Eucharist and Worship - First read Justin Martyr’s 1st Apology, then read other ECF’s
- Priests - Wow! Think about it. These are men that have abandoned all personal goals (Marriage, Riches, etc) in order to serve God and the lost and the faithful. Are they perfect, no. No one is perfect, only God is.
), but I have hope
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jncarlos007
Guest
I don’t understand how the quote has anything to do with my question or even with your reply to it, nor do I know what book it is referencing or its author. Sorry
This is, in a way, what another poster is alluding to, which is, that it is sometimes unavoidable, in the acceptance of doctrines of the Catholic Church (or another entity), to surrender one’s own opinions and reasons for those of an organization. Too many people here seem to be able and ready to quote a catechism or statement but unable to articulate in their own words what it means. (I have more to say on this, but withhold it here)
I see two reasons for this. One is that they simply do not understand what it means (understandable given the complexity of some issues) and the other is that they are afraid to articulate an opinion that may be contrary to church teaching.
The question remains, Do you think, whether or not it is official church position is unimportant (as you can accept it as your own belief or form your own) that it is possible to be saved without being a member of the church, being a Christian, or even ever hearing about Jesus.
The situations can be endless parsed into what about this situation? Or that circumstance? Until it reaches a point of incomprehensability.
As far as those unfortunate children I think it is important to remember that they share in the lost condition the same as the rest of us (despite beliefs one way or the other on infant baptism and consecration) and deserve, as do we all, to die. Those children are no different from ones born somewhere they will never have a chance to hear the name Jesus. Any moment we remain alive is because it is the will of God. Nothing more, nothing less. So yes, embracing a false religion because it is cutural, forced or natural, still does not equate to belief and faith in the one true God.
But if you feel comfortable carving out exceptions to salvation for different situations that arise you are not alone.
Good stuff though. I am enjoying learning
J
Jehannette
Guest
Your error is in trying to portray the opposite of “outside the Catholic Church” as being “within the canonical boundaries of the Catholic Church.” Just as the opposite of “guilty” is not necessarily “innocent,” so, too, the opposite of “outside the Church” is not necessarily “within the Church.” In fact, there is a third category (e.g., catechumens) who are neither outside nor, technically, inside the Catholic Church.
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Rhuarc
Guest
The live in heresy and are indoctrinated at a young age to hate Catholics. Personally I firmly believe protestants cause more people to hate religion/Christianity more than anyone could. They teach doctrine that is about as firm and strong as jello pudding. There is no central authority to determine what they believe so beliefs can vary from church to church. Emphasis is given on the individual pastors to interpret scripture. Not to mention the stink they make about creationism and make all church goers the laughing stock of the scientific community.
All in all they cause WAY more problems than good and I would say to everyone I meet to come home to Rome.
All in all they cause WAY more problems than good and I would say to everyone I meet to come home to Rome.
J
jncarlos007
Guest
So Christ is not sufficient? You must aid God by engaging in certain actions? (Kudos if that can be resolved
And I read that chapter differently. “by His own *glory *and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises”
It is His glory and excellence, not by our practice of certain methods, movements, and sayings.
To me, those things are right and proper methods of worship, devotion, and meditation, and bring honor and Glory to God. We tend to over inflate our position within them however, even going so far as to say that our performance in some way assists our salvation or our proper “being” a child of God.
It is a fine line, and ultimately, one of the intrinsic perceptions that keeps me linked to protestantism, warts and all. Though to be fair, there are denominations that would not give up a traditional method for anything.
J
Jehannette
Guest
“If you love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15)So Christ is not sufficient? You must aid God by engaging in certain actions? (Kudos if that can be resolved
“He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.” (Luke 10:16)
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Salvation is a mystery brother. From Scriptures, the Church and the Church Fathers we can learn a lot. To even attempt to identify the possibilities of Christ’s Salvific power is to ask for a beating. Who knows the mind of God?
I think we need all of the above in order to keep ourselves from leaving our Shepperd’s sight.
Can we think by ourselves? Of course.
Can I be wrong? Of course.
Can I be right? Of course.
Why would our Lord designate others to take care of His sheep? He didn’t say, each sheep go grab a book and find your way. And you can follow any sheep you like and prefer in your theology.
No, he chose 12 (plus 70 if you want to get technical
) and when they were 11, the 11 chose the 12th by invoking the Holy Spirit. Then they chose others (Stephen, etc), and then they chose more, Paul was singled out by Jesus. Anyway, you see where I’m going with this.It gets really complicated as time passes and Church doctrines evolve and get put in practice.
Salvation is God’s alone and His knowledge alone. We can read things in the Bible but who is going to interpret them for us? We can’t go around and proclaiming different truths, the Truth is one and it has to be consistent.
Look at this for example:
Matthew 10
16 “ Behold , I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves ; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves . 17 But beware of men , for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues ; 18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake , as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles . 19 But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say ; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say . 20 For it is not you who speak , but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. 21 “ Brother will betray brother to death , and a father his child ; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death . 22 You will be hated by all because of My name , but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved . 23 “But whenever they persecute you in one city , flee to the next ; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes .
John 15:1-6
1 “ I am the true vine , and My Father is the vinedresser . 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit , He takes away ; and every branch that bears fruit , He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit . 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine , so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine , you are the branches ; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit , for apart from Me you can do nothing . 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned …
12 “This is My commandment , that you love one another , just as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this , that one lay down his life for his friends . 14 You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you slaves , for the slave does not know what his master is doing ; but I have called you friends , for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit , and that your fruit would remain , so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 This I command you, that you love one another .
If is the biggest small word in the English vocabulary for a reason. There is a qualifier here.
Romans 11
17 But if some of the branches were broken off , and you, being a wild olive , were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree , 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches ; but if you are arrogant , remember that it is not you who supports the root , but the root supports you. 19 You will say then , “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right , they were broken off for their unbelief , but you stand by your faith . Do not be conceited , but fear ; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches , He will not spare you, either . 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God ; to those who fell , severity , but to you, God’s kindness , if you continue in His kindness ; otherwise you also will be cut off . 23 And they also , if they do not continue in their unbelief , will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again .
If is the biggest small word in the English language for a reason.
Peace,
Jose
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jpelham
Guest
After it was already recognized by whom? Prior to the final definition of the biblical canon at the end of the 4th century, by the Council of Carthage I believe, there existed considerable disagreement about its contents.
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