Catholic vs. Catholic

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Windfish

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A lot of non-Catholics, I have noticed, make an effort to be very particular with the word “catholic” in at least two ways:
  1. They always make sure to include the prefix “Roman” when addressing Catholics.
  2. The always make sure to have the letter “c” in “catholic” be lower case when talking about the universal Church.
I have seen Catholics respond to number one, but not to number two. Why do non-Catholics do this? And what is our response to it?
 
The word “catholic” means universal. When we talk about the universal catholic (redundant!) Church we usually don’t capitalize the word “catholic” (or the word “universal”) - it’s an adjective, not part of the name. I usually capatalize the word “Church” in this context, but I’m in the minority.

Then there is the Catholic Church. That’s the name that the Church at Rome calls herself. The word Catholic, being part of the name, is uppercase, as is common for proper nouns. I never capatalize the word “protestant” but I capitalize the names of protestant denominations (Baptists, Methodists, etc).

The Catholic Church does not use the term “Roman Catholic.” She calls herself the Catholic Church, or just “the Church” for short.
 
DavidFilmer said:
The word “catholic” means universal. When we talk about the universal catholic (redundant!) Church we usually don’t capitalize the word “catholic” - it’s an adjective, not part of the name.

Then there is the Catholic Church. That’s the name that the Church at Rome calls herself. The word Catholic, being part of the name, is uppercase, as is common for proper nouns.

The Catholic Church does not use the term “Roman Catholic.” She calls herself the Catholic Church, or just “the Church” for short.
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I understand all of that. However, when we show Protestants first and second century creeds and ecclesiastical documents to prove that the Catholic Church is the early Christian Church, one common reply is those documents use lower case “c,” not upper case “c.” What is our reply?
 
Windfish said:
I understand all of that. However, when we show Protestants first and second century creeds and ecclesiastical documents to prove that the Catholic Church is the early Christian Church, one common reply is those documents use lower case “c,” not upper case “c.” What is our reply?
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Well, I’m not sure about the conventions of Greek and Latin grammar 2000 years ago, but there would have been no need for those guys to make any sort of distinction. Until 1054 AD, there was only one Church (at Rome). Before that, nobody had any concept of a Roman Church and a larger “universal” Church.
 
DavidFilmer said:
Well, I’m not sure about the conventions of Greek and Latin grammar 2000 years ago, but there would have been no need for those guys to make any sort of distinction. Until 1054 AD, there was only one Church (at Rome). Before that, nobody had any concept of a Roman Church and a larger “universal” Church.
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Good point. I was hoping for a one-hit knockout reply, though. 😛
 
Windfish said:
I understand all of that. However, when we show Protestants first and second century creeds and ecclesiastical documents to prove that the Catholic Church is the early Christian Church, one common reply is those documents use lower case “c,” not upper case “c.” What is our reply?
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All letters in the 1st and 2nd centuries were upper case. IOW in the beginning it would be CATHOLIC CHURCH, not catholic church.

Punctuation in the beginning was non existent. Everything looked like one run-on sentence.
 
steve_b said:
All letters in the 1st and 2nd centuries were upper case. IOW in the beginning it would be CATHOLIC CHURCH, not catholic church.

Punctuation in the beginning was non existent. Everything looked like one run-on sentence.
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So are translations of the creeds (and other documents) which feature the word “Catholic” with a lower case “c” are wrong?
 
Windfish said:
A lot of non-Catholics, I have noticed, make an effort to be very particular with the word “catholic” in at least two ways:
  1. They always make sure to include the prefix “Roman” when addressing Catholics.
  2. The always make sure to have the letter “c” in “catholic” be lower case when talking about the universal Church.
I have seen Catholics respond to number one, but not to number two. Why do non-Catholics do this? And what is our response to it?
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Not Catholic yet, I would simply take them where they are.
However, I would be asking questions that would make it very hard for them to continue the falsity.
 
Windfish said:
So are translations of the creeds (and other documents) which feature the word “Catholic” with a lower case “c” are wrong?
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No, because the lowercase c is meaning “universal.” We believe in one, holy, universal, apostolic…​

thefreedictionary.com/catholic

cath·o·lic (kth-lk, kthlk)
adj.
  1. Of broad or liberal scope; comprehensive: “The 100-odd pages of formulas and constants are surely the most catholic to be found” (Scientific American).
  2. Including or concerning all humankind; universal: “what was of catholic rather than national interest” (J.A. Froude).
  3. Catholic
    a. Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
    b. Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
    c. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
    d. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.
    n. Catholic
    A member of a Catholic church, especially a Roman Catholic.
    ==========================
So there is nothing wrong with using a lowercase c because that phrase in the Nicene Creed is best translated as catholic meaning “universal.”
 
DavidFilmer said:
Well, I’m not sure about the conventions of Greek and Latin grammar 2000 years ago, but there would have been no need for those guys to make any sort of distinction. Until 1054 AD, there was only one Church (at Rome). Before that, nobody had any concept of a Roman Church and a larger “universal” Church.
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Steve_b is right. There were no lower case letters in the Roman alphabet (nor in the Greek, I understand) 2000 years ago nor where there spaces. For example, the inscript above Christ on the Cross would have been:

IESVSNAZARENVSREXIVDAEORVM

So the distinction between Catholica and catholica wouldn’t have been made till later, more likely several centuries later.
 
Windfish said:
So are translations of the creeds (and other documents) which feature the word “Catholic” with a lower case “c” are wrong?
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It shows those translations are of newer vintage, pushing back on ancient documents case sensitivity that wasn’t existent in the beginning. The same with using punctuation, paragraphs, chapter, verse, etc etc. All that came much later in history. If you saw the originals of any scroll of the 1st or 2nd century, it would look like one big run-on sentence with all words being in capital letters.
 
ProVobis said:
Steve_b is right. There were no lower case letters in the Roman alphabet (nor in the Greek, I understand) 2000 years ago nor where there spaces. For example, the inscript above Christ on the Cross would have been:

IESVSNAZARENVSREXIVDAEORVM

So the distinction between Catholica and catholica wouldn’t have been made till later, more likely several centuries later.
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That must have been a very interesting inscript above the Cross.
Those darn iconographers messed up by using the acronym! Imagine how the art would have looked if done properly.

Anyone have some pics handy of the INRI above the Christ on the Cross?
Anyone have IESVSNAZARENVSREXIVDAEORFVM above the Christ on the Cross?

🤷

Or Mark’s 15:26?
 
StrawberryJam said:
That must have been a very interesting inscript above the Cross.
Those darn iconographers messed up by using the acronym! Imagine how the art would have looked if done properly.

Anyone have some pics handy of the INRI above the Christ on the Cross?
Anyone have IESVSNAZARENVSREXIVDAEORFVM above the Christ on the Cross?

🤷

Or Mark’s 15:26?
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Pilate had the inscription on the cross above Jesus head, written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin [Jn 19:20]
 
StrawberryJam said:
That must have been a very interesting inscript above the Cross.
Those darn iconographers messed up by using the acronym! Imagine how the art would have looked if done properly.

Anyone have some pics handy of the INRI above the Christ on the Cross?
Anyone have IESVSNAZARENVSREXIVDAEORFVM above the Christ on the Cross?

🤷

Or Mark’s 15:26?
Click to expand...
 
Windfish said:
A lot of non-Catholics, I have noticed, make an effort to be very particular with the word “catholic” in at least two ways:
  1. They always make sure to include the prefix “Roman” when addressing Catholics.
  2. The always make sure to have the letter “c” in “catholic” be lower case when talking about the universal Church.
I have seen Catholics respond to number one, but not to number two. Why do non-Catholics do this? And what is our response to it?
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I would look more to the intent of those words than how the letter is written. Today, i know that those outside the Church uses c to say that they are in the Catholic Church. but this was never what Catholic means. It seems to me that they are gettign their way.
 
haha, I always like hearing how there was no lowercase BACK IN THE DAY. 😃
 
ESMDHokie77 said:
haha, I always like hearing how there was no lowercase BACK IN THE DAY. 😃
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Many computer programs didn’t have lowercase twenty years ago. Now they forgot what uppercase looks like. 🙂

Either that or they think uppercase HOLLERS at them.
 
The distinction is made because those outside of the RCC aknowledge that there ARE Eastern Churches that excommunicated the RCC just as the RCC excommunicated them.

And some of these churches existed before Rome had a church.

So, the RCC “history” aside for a moment, those who look at Church history a bit more dispassionately recognize that the RCC has never been the entire Church, nor is it today.
 
Muze said:
The distinction is made because those outside of the RCC aknowledge that there ARE Eastern Churches that excommunicated the RCC just as the RCC excommunicated them.

And some of these churches existed before Rome had a church.

So, the RCC “history” aside for a moment, those who look at Church history a bit more dispassionately recognize that the RCC has never been the entire Church, nor is it today.
Click to expand...
What is the RCC?
 
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