Catholic vs. Christian

[saved75]

Common sense is going by what the Bible says.
If you read my post, You will see that I gave scriptures.

 

[saved75]

Saved75,
Welcome to the forum! I want to sincerely suggest something. I want you to stay around for a while in Catholic Answers Forum. I realize you have concerns about infant baptism. So many here iin the forum would love to share real biblical based answers to your concerns. I ask you in the name of Jesus our Lord to seek them. I worry that if you are not respecting the forum rules (which is not just having a different opinion, but respecting the poster’s thread) you may be banned. Im not trying to threaten. I realize infant baptism is a topic in this thread, but not a main debate with the OP. He has lots to consider and lots to answer for us to address him properly. If he comes back to see what advice is given and sees pages and pages of arguing about one topic he is not so concerned about, he may be discouraged and leave. Thats not the purpose here. You have given your opinion about infant baptism within your interpretation of scripture. Lets address it further in a seperate thread.
If you choose not to, then your spirit would not seem to genuine.

God bless you and our search for understanding the ministry of Baptism, which without His Spirit we cannot see.
Michael

I don’t have opinions, Neither should you or anyone else, We should go by what the Bible says, And nowhere does the Bible teach infant baptism.

Infant baptism is a religious ritual, And it certainly isn’t a Biblical Christrian doctrine.

You and other can argue with God if you want to,
But I will believe Him and His word, [The Bible].

If you, Or anyone else can give me scriptures that prove infant baptism, Then I will believe it, Do we have a deal??.

 

[saved75]

2Thess 2:15

So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

John 21:25

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

What has that got to do with infant baptism.
Whatever anyone teaches has to be in agreement with the Bible.

 

[saved75]

Do you realize an infant has no actual sin? He has original sin through his parents. Through faith of parents, in consistence with teaching in example, we are given the sacrement of baptism for the forgiveness of sins. This is an appeal from parental rights for a clear conscience and forgiveness. This does not equate to assurance of salvation, but forgiveness of sins and acceptence into the community of faith which is the Church. Whoever perseveres to the end will be saved.

Deuteronomy 5:9,10

If you are saying that the parent’s faith give the right to baptise infants, Please give New Testament scriptures.
If you notice, You will see that always give scriptures to back up what I say.

Water baptism DOESN’T forgive sins Or save.

The disciples were baptised, But they weren’t saved until Jesus died and rose again.
1 Cor 15: 12–20.
Paul was saved and baptised in the Holy Ghost, But he wasn’t baptised in water at that time. Acts 9: 6–17.
The Gentiles were saved, Baptised in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, But they weren’t baptised in water at that time. Acts 10: 44–46.

 

[rcwitness]

If you are saying that the parent’s faith give the right to baptise infants, Please give New Testament scriptures.
If you notice, You will see that always give scriptures to back up what I say.

Water baptism DOESN’T forgive sins Or save.

The disciples were baptised, But they weren’t saved until Jesus died and rose again.
1 Cor 15: 12–20.
Paul was saved and baptised in the Holy Ghost, But he wasn’t baptised in water at that time. Acts 9: 6–17.
The Gentiles were saved, Baptised in the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues, But they weren’t baptised in water at that time. Acts 10: 44–46.

Are you then saying Jesus Himself never told anyone that their faith or the faith of their friends has forgiven their sins? Read the story of the paralytic whos friends brought to Jesus. I do not always throw scripture verses out for two reasons:

1. i dont always remember their location, but remember them in my heart.
2. i dont know the entire bible by heart and claim to be given all interpretation of it as a whole. That is for the whole body of the Church to pronounce through her leadership and me to study and conform to. Some scripture (like “we must be born of water and Spirit”) is no longer open to interpretation. It has been interpretated long ago. Other parts are open to our interpretation. Sorry i dont have an example for one.

Baptism is a Sacramental rite because it contains the Lords command and grace. Not because of anything we earn, deserve or create.

If you claim to only follow the Holy Spirit, you would understand the hidden wisdom in these things. We all fall short of His Spirit. You are not independent of the mystical body.

When you bring scripture proof that the bible is the only authority for the Christian or that we should interpret it by ourselves and all have the gift of interpretation, yes, we have a deal

 

[JustaServant]

No one can give sriptural support for infant baptism, Because there isn’t any.

This is why it is important to pay attention in English class in school.
Read slooooowly and caaaaarefully.

Genesis 17
1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2And I will **make my covenant **between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee **in their generations **for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; **Every man child among you shall be circumcised. **
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

23And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

27And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

Genesis 21:4
4And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.

Colossians 2
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Acts 16:15 (King James Version)

15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

1 Corinthians 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Acts 2:

38
Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ*** for the forgiveness of your sins***; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39
For the promise is made **to you and to your children **and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”

 

[JustaServant]

My opinion, Is the same as God’s…

Quite a statement.
Apparently the Church that gave you that Bible of yours disagrees:

He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, “Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents” or “by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,” but, “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.” The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

 

[Peter_J]

I’m probably as curious as the next person; but it’s seems a bit pointless to keep adding more and more posts on here, until rosypink can get around to clarifying.

 

[JustaServant]

Water baptism DOESN’T forgive sins Or save.

Colossians 2
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[AbideWithMe]

Saved75,
Welcome to the forum! I want to sincerely suggest something. I want you to stay around for a while in Catholic Answers Forum. I realize you have concerns about infant baptism. So many here iin the forum would love to share real biblical based answers to your concerns. I ask you in the name of Jesus our Lord to seek them. I worry that if you are not respecting the forum rules (which is not just having a different opinion, but respecting the poster’s thread) you may be banned. Im not trying to threaten. I realize infant baptism is a topic in this thread, but not a main debate with the OP. He has lots to consider and lots to answer for us to address him properly. If he comes back to see what advice is given and sees pages and pages of arguing about one topic he is not so concerned about, he may be discouraged and leave. Thats not the purpose here. You have given your opinion about infant baptism within your interpretation of scripture. Lets address it further in a seperate thread.
If you choose not to, then your spirit would not seem to genuine.

God bless you and our search for understanding the ministry of Baptism, which without His Spirit we cannot see.
Michael

Saved75— I have to agree with RCWitness’s request. I realize you’re new here, so I think you deserve to be cut some slack…but, you did initiate the current thread derailment. I’m not saying that to single you out—probably most of us have initiated or participated in thread derailments—but, it does make it harder for everyone when they keep going on and on.

Please start a new thread to discuss infant baptism.

 

[jimmy]

No one can give sriptural support for infant baptism, Because there isn’t any.
My opinion, Is the same as God’s.
First, Hear and Believe.
Second, Repent and get born again.
Third, Then and then only can one be baptised.

Of cause we have to repent daily, If we have sinned, But what has that got to do with baptism??.
God says, He who BELIEVES and is baptised, Mk 16: 16… And.
REPENT, Then be baptised, Acts 2: 38.

No, your opinion isn’t that of God or that of the scriptures. As has been pointed out, whole households were baptized, children and all.

Belief is a daily thing as well. Mk16 doesn’t say, ‘Believe, then be baptized.’ It says, ‘Believe and be baptized.’ It doesn’t portray it as a sequence of events. No where does the text imply that belief comes before baptism. It only implies that both are present. Belief and baptism go together. One who is baptized is to believe. You have reduced Christianity to a choice someone has to make at a moment in time. And if they choose not to believe, then who are we to disagree? They just chose the other option.

If repentance was a precursor we would have to wait until our deathbed to be baptized, like many of the early Christians did. As I pointed out, repentance is a daily thing, and infact is the way of life for Christianity. It isn’t a simple and momentary act you perform at a specific point in time before becoming Christian, before you are baptized. It is what it is to be Christian. To be a Christian is to repent, or to return to God. Repentance is an about face. There is no reason why this shouldn’t be applied to children, because they can live it just as easily as anyone else.

That said, Acts2 doesn’t say, “Repent then be baptized”, it says “repent and be baptized”. There is no indication of sequence, as if repentance must occur before being baptized. That isn’t implied in the text.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

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