Catholic vs. Lutheran: Mass

[mark_a]

And I absolutely reject the claim that we deny Tradition. We value Tradition, and seek to make sure it is consistent with scripture.
Jon

Jon,
Tradition ensures we consistently interpret scripture, not vice versa.

We can split hairs or jointly declare until the second coming, but we know the larger issue is authority.

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

We can split hairs or jointly declare until the second coming, but we know the larger issue is authority.

Probably so, Mark. Probably so.

So, what do we do?

Jon

 

[mark_a]

Probably so, Mark. Probably so.

So, what do we do?

Jon

As you already know Jon, I have no answers. But I believe that somewhere down the road, probably sooner than later, we will be forced together by the violent Islamists. I don’t believe moderate Islam will stand up to the jihadists or side with Christians. By that time, the hair splitting that has gone on for the last 500 years will seem trivial.

But I was really more interested in what you had to say about:

Tradition ensures we consistently interpret scripture, not vice versa.

Meanwhile, I hope that I can exhibit some of the same Christian behavior I have come to expect from your posts here. I am always interested in your take on things.

 

[JonNC]

=mark a;6378692]As you already know Jon, I have no answers. But I believe that somewhere down the road, probably sooner than later, we will be forced together by the violent Islamists. I don’t believe moderate Islam will stand up to the jihadists or side with Christians. By that time, the hair splitting that has gone on for the last 500 years will seem trivial.

Mark,
Sorry I miised this, and didn’t respond sooner.
I completely agree. I think it may have at least as big an impact on the east / west as it will within the west. How did Franklin say it? “We must all hang together, or we will most certainly hang separately.”

But I was really more interested in what you had to say about:

Tradition ensures we consistently interpret scripture, not vice versa.

You know, Mark, I think it is some of both. I would agree that, in many ways, Tradition is necessary for interpretation. Note that the first items in the Book of Concord (Lutheran Confessions) are the three ecumenical Creeds. A good starting point, I would say, and evidence of your point.

Meanwhile, I hope that I can exhibit some of the same Christian behavior I have come to expect from your posts here. I am always interested in your take on things

Thanks, Mark. I appreciate it.
Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Hi Gabriel,

I am not willing to concede at all that Luther’s understanding of sola fide was anything but historically catholic, and in response to abuses that were not. The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is, to me, vindication of the Catholic teaching that we are justified by grace alone through faith in Christ. In addition, I’m equally not willing to concede that the practice of sola scriptura, the way Luther and Lutherans understand it, was something new. And I absolutely reject the claim that we deny Tradition. We value Tradition, and seek to make sure it is consistent with scripture.

Greetings Jon; would you agree with me, that in order for two opposing views to reason and understand in communication, each view should reveal his position and view? as you have elegantly displayed here. I sincerely respect your reply with a joyous heart.

Iam pleased to report, that learning your position of concession and rejection gives me great joy, to seek more understanding and learning from your position.

What deserves communication is defining or revealing our positions. I find that in Lutheranism, just as in my Catholic Faith, many subjects are rejected because of misunderstandings or misinformation. For example the subject of Sola Fide; One can accept this teaching so long as it does not remove believing God’s Word, the Apostolic succession, and revealed revelation from God to our humanity in Jesus Christ. In other words when one attaches “Sola” to a subject it leaves no room to accept other Revelations from God.

What is the historical Catholic Sola fide? that Luther taught and to which Lutherans teach and believe today?

The justification by Grace alone through Jesus Christ, is a wonderful avenue through ecumenism. This Grace alone when explained outside of its defined context can be misleading. I am willing to venture that this Grace doctrine has gotten alot of abuse to be used against Catholic Apostolic teaching, which does not oppose it when defined from the apostolic Traditional teachings. Again placing the “alone” to a doctrine can be misleading to error. This is why removing the interjections of pride such as “sola” from a revealed Apostolic doctrine will not be misleading to misunderstandings.

Sola Scriptura, as understood by Luther and Lutherans is not the same Sola Scriptura practiced by most fundamentalists and Evangelicals. Although I find one can be hard pressed to reveal, why the Sola Scriptura teaching from Martin Luther is not a new teaching? that does not come from Apostolic Traditional revelations. In other words, for the first 400 years of Christianity there was no “Sola Scriptura” because there was no canonized bible yet, Just Apostolic Traditional Catholic liturgies, apostolic oral teachings handed down, and apostolic letters, no “sola scriptura” until Martin Luther introduced it.

Iam happy to learn Lutherans believe in “Tradition”. Do we have different understandings of Apostolic Tradition? If you accept Tradition supported by sacred scripture, then you have no more “Sola Scriptura”, you now have what the Catholic Church calls the full deposit of faith from Sacred Scripture **and **(no sola scriptura) Sacred Tradition.

I believe we can truly reach unity, if we can see each one’s position and definition of faith and doctrine. Although we may use the same terminology, we may differ in definition from the terminology in matters of faith. The unity takes place when each one is willing to accept revelation and Truth from both Apostolic Tradition and Sacred Scripture, not just “Sola Scriptura”. Now here is where Luthers Sola Scriptura teaching needs to be clarified. Although a Lutherans interpretation of sola scriptura makes good for common sense, but it remains from my limited knowledge of “Lutherans today” a new teaching introduced by Martin Luther himself, followed by Lutherans.

The only way back to unity is open communication and as St.Paul states in Ephesians 5:21 “Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ…For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the Church, he himself the savior of the body,” submit to the authority Jesus Christ placed on earth which is written in the scriptures followed by 2000 years of Apostolic Tradition.

Peace be with you