Catholic vs Lutheran?

[JonNC]

I think most Lutherans would take offense at that.

Not offense, as we recognize that it is the Catholic teaching on Orders and Apostolic Succession. We just disagree.
Additionally, Catholic clergy do not seem to take an all-or-nothing view of Lutheran Orders and Eucharist as ne might find amongst more conservative laity, as one finds here at CAF.

As an example,
nccbuscc.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

From Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, in a letter to German Lutheran Bishop Hanselmann:

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’** Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, **need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord ****[Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Funny you should ask, I am a Lutheran thinking of switching to Catholic.

Lutherans do not have as much symbols, no mention of the Virgin Mary, but it is important to know there are two different types:

ELCA: more liberal, has female pastors and usually silent on abortion and homosexuality

Missouri Synod: more conservative, no female pastors, vocally against abortion and homosexuality

both tend to have longer sermons than Catholics, and are less traditional on literagy.

good luck on your search

While it is true that verneration of the Blessed Virgin does not play as significant role in Lutheranism as it does the CC, to say there is no mention of her isn’t exactly the case. Lutherans accept as doctrine that she is the Holy Theotokos, the Formula of Concord mentions her as “remaining a virgin”, and Aug, 15th is the Feast day of Mary the Mother of our Lord.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

As of now I am a non denominational christian, and here is my question in detail. I have been to Catholic Mass before and really enjoyed it (I agreed with the teachings and loved the respect they gave to God), but I’m still trying out different denominations. I would like to try a local Lutheran church, but what is it like? Is it like Catholic Mass? Or is it like Protestant services, where you just walk in and sit?

Lutheran Divine Service (Mass) is far more like Catholic Mass than it is most protestant worship services, but when considering a faith communion, it seems to me one should first and foremost look at doctrine. Lutheran doctrine begins with the practice of using scripture as the final norm, holding all teachers, teachings, doctrines and dogmas accountable. We, therefore, accept the early councils and creeds, and the Lutheran Confessions as statements (witnesses) of the truth of the Gospel

The Lutheran confessions are contained the The Book of Concord. I would encourage you to first read Luther’s Small Catechism, the Augsburg Confession, and the Apology of the Augsburg Confession to begin to get an understandng of what we believe, teach, and confess. And since you are in a search, I would also encourage you to seek the confessional documents of other faith communions, or attend education classes within the communons you wantto know more about, whether it be RCIA in the Catholic Church, adult education classes in a Lutheran parish, or others.

bookofconcord.org/

I pray for your discernment, guidance from the Holy Spirit, and that you find the home where the Spirit is guiding you.

Jon

 

[Oldtimer_7]

Regarding Real Presence, we Lutherans are closer to the Orthodox understanding of accepting Eucharist as a mystery rather than trying to explain it. More conservative Lutheran denominations practice closed communion, which is more in keeping with Catholic tradition. As for avoiding ELCA churches, I will remind you that there are liberal and conservative parishes in every denomination. As for Lutheranism being Catholicism-Lite, let me remind you that Jesus said that his yoke was light. Catholics have something over 2,000 laws regarding behavior, while Pharisees had 613. Jesus had two.

 

[JonNC]

=Oldtimer_7;9833613]Regarding Real Presence, we Lutherans are closer to the Orthodox understanding of accepting Eucharist as a mystery rather than trying to explain it.

Agreed.

More conservative Lutheran denominations practice closed communion, which is more in keeping with Catholic tradition.

True.

As for avoiding ELCA churches, I will remind you that there are liberal and conservative parishes in every denomination.

This is indeed true. I still have family members that have chosen to stay in the ELCA, and my dad was an ELCA pastor, wh was never mistaken as being liberal, theologically or politically. I think, however, one can say the ELCA in practice and by Church statements can clearly be identified as liberal both theoligically and politically.

As for Lutheranism being Catholicism-Lite, let me remind you that Jesus said that his yoke was light. Catholics have something over 2,000 laws regarding behavior, while Pharisees had 613. Jesus had two.

chuckle I think, however, we should heed Luther’s concern that being freed from the “yoke” of the papacy is not an excuse or license for poor behavior. Nor is it an excuse for straying from the historic teachings of the Church, an example being who is eligible for ordination.

Jon

 

[Porknpie]

Regarding Real Presence, we Lutherans are closer to the Orthodox understanding of accepting Eucharist as a mystery rather than trying to explain it. More conservative Lutheran denominations practice closed communion, which is more in keeping with Catholic tradition. As for avoiding ELCA churches, I will remind you that there are liberal and conservative parishes in every denomination. As for Lutheranism being Catholicism-Lite, let me remind you that Jesus said that his yoke was light. Catholics have something over 2,000 laws regarding behavior, while Pharisees had 613. Jesus had two.

The issue is not one of liberal and conservative. Those are deceptive words that hide the truth of Christ and his Church. The ELCA is distant in following the truth of Christ. ELCA: Women’s ordination, ordination of Gay, Lesbian and Transgendered are not following the truth of Christ. Neither is permitting abortions and not taking a stance on human cloning. I would ask, not only “what would Jesus say” but also, “what would Luther say?” Show me where in the Gospel, Tradition or from Luther ordination was even thought of or promoted for women, gays and lesbians? Below is an article contrasting ELCA and LCMS. One is closer to following the truth in Christ and one is not, following a path of man made tradition(s).

orlutheran.com/html/barrydiff.html

 

[Swiss_Guy]

As of now I am a non denominational christian, and here is my question in detail. I have been to Catholic Mass before and really enjoyed it (I agreed with the teachings and loved the respect they gave to God), but I’m still trying out different denominations. I would like to try a local Lutheran church, but what is it like? Is it like Catholic Mass? Or is it like Protestant services, where you just walk in and sit?

Think of it as a mix between a Catholic Mass and a (typical) Protestant service. I’d guess that no matter what Lutheran branch (ELCA, LC-MS, etc.) you go to the actually service will be about the same.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

The biggest and most important difference,The Real Presence…

Yes, but in this instance I would think that a more Calvinist approach would be accurate: Christ is “spiritually present” to Lutherans in Holy Communion, not in the way He is present in Catholic Churches–Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Christ is “spiritually present” to Lutherans in Holy Communion, not in the way He is present in Catholic Churches–Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

That’s not quite the way Luther explained it, or so it seems:

Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.

Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”

source: Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391

 

[JonNC]

That’s not quite the way Luther explained it, or so it seems:

Thanks, Byz.

I happened to miss Swiss’s post. This, from the Lutheran confessions:

we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament. This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered. For since Paul says, 1 Cor. 10:16, that the bread is the communion of the Lord’s body, etc., it would follow, if the Lord’s body were not truly present, that the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of the spirit of Christ. 55] And we have ascertained that not only the Roman Church affirms the bodily presence of Christ, but the Greek Church also both now believes, and formerly believed, the same. For the canon of the Mass among them testifies to this, in which the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed and become the very body of Christ. And Vulgarius, who seems to us to be not a silly writer, says distinctly that bread is not a mere figure, but 56] is truly changed into flesh.

Lutherans, without qualification, deny a mere spiritual presence, but instead teach the real, substantial presence received both spirituallly by faith and orally by the mouth.

Jon

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Thanks, Byz.

I’m learning

That said, we cannot begin to understand each other without honest dialogue.

Lutherans, without qualification, deny a mere spiritual presence, but instead teach the real, substantial presence received both spirituallly by faith and orally by the mouth.

I have read that Luther felt so strongly that he went so far as to even reject the notion of the “accidents” of bread and wine. Is that correct?

 

[JonNC]

=ByzCathCantor;9834273]I’m learning

That said, we cannot begin to understand each other without honest dialogue.

Yes.

I have read that Luther felt so strongly that he went so far as to even reject the notion of the “accidents” of bread and wine. Is that correct?

The basic rejection is the metaphysical aspects of transubstantiation.
Lutheran belief is essentially this: what do we know? We know that, as Christ tells us, the bread is His body, the wine is His blood.
What for? For us to eat and drink, for the remission of sin, in remembrance of Him. It is a means of His grace. Beyond that is a mystery, as Christ does not explain it further.

As for me, I have no particular problem regarding Transubstantiation in and of itself, if the intent is to put the mystery in terms that people can understand. Same with luther’s Sacramental Union. I only know that Christ’s words tell us that the consecrated bread and wine ARE His body and blood.

Jon

 

[benjohnson]

I have read that Luther felt so strongly that he went so far as to even reject the notion of the “accidents” of bread and wine. Is that correct?

As I understand it, this is correct - Luther rejected dissecting the true body and blood into components. He was content to let it be a mystery.

EDIT: Jon’s post above is much better than mine!

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The basic rejection is the metaphysical aspects of transubstantiation. Lutheran belief is essentially this: what do we know? We know that, as Christ tells us, the bread is His body, the wine is His blood. What for? For us to eat and drink, for the remission of sin, in remembrance of Him. It is a means of His grace. Beyond that is a mystery, as Christ does not explain it further.

How very Eastern

 

[andrewstx]

Regarding Real Presence, we Lutherans are closer to the Orthodox understanding of accepting Eucharist as a mystery rather than trying to explain it. More conservative Lutheran denominations practice closed communion, which is more in keeping with Catholic tradition. As for avoiding ELCA churches, I will remind you that there are liberal and conservative parishes in every denomination. As for Lutheranism being Catholicism-Lite, let me remind you that Jesus said that his yoke was light. Catholics have something over 2,000 laws regarding behavior, while Pharisees had 613. Jesus had two.

I would think that Lutherans are more conservative than the most conservative Anglicans due to their confessional nature.

Episcopalians and Anglicans really have no confessions other than the 39 Articles, which are now considered a mere historical document.

I have a lot of respect for Lutherens. I wish that both of our churches did not have close Communion so that we could share the Body and Blood of Christ.

 

[GKC]

I would think that Lutherans are more conservative than the most conservative Anglicans due to their confessional nature.

Episcopalians and Anglicans really have no confessions other than the 39 Articles, which are now considered a mere historical document.

I have a lot of respect for Lutherens. I wish that both of our churches did not have close Communion so that we could share the Body and Blood of Christ.

I’m amazingly conservative/orthodox, myself.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[JonNC]

I’m amazingly conservative/orthodox, myself.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

Yeah, but you guys are more motley than we are. Well, not much more…

Jon

 

[GKC]

Yeah, but you guys are more motley than we are. Well, not much more…

Jon

Generically, 'tis true, sadly.

GKC

 

[JonNC]

Generically, 'tis true, sadly.

GKC

lol. I think the message for our friend Andrew is that within Anglicanism there is a very conservative/orthodox element that, franky, is at least as orthodox as that of the most conservative of Lutherans.

Jon

 

[GKC]

lol. I think the message for our friend Andrew is that within Anglicanism there is a very conservative/orthodox element that, franky, is at least as orthodox as that of the most conservative of Lutherans.

Jon

Yep.

GKC