Catholic vs. Orthodox Monasticism

[Melchior]

In reading about monks in both traditions it strikes me how different both are. It seems that Orthodox monasticism is isolated and static. Whereas most of Catholic monasticism has be community involved and active. They were the missionaries of centuries gone by, such as in Ireland. Orthodox monastics seem to be withdrawn from the world - sort of hidden.

I am curious as to why this is.

Mel

 

[bogoljub]

In reading about monks in both traditions it strikes me how different both are. It seems that Orthodox monasticism is isolated and static. Whereas most of Catholic monasticism has be community involved and active. They were the missionaries of centuries gone by, such as in Ireland. Orthodox monastics seem to be withdrawn from the world - sort of hidden.

I am curious as to why this is.

Mel

God bless!

It depends how we understand monasticism. The orthodox monastic way is the old way ! You should first study the ancient monstic communities and u will see that the orthodox kept this way intact. Instead of catholic - I think many monstics do not know anymore what the monstic live is for.

The monastic way is the way of intense prayer, fasting, repetence, ascesis, it is God centered and to unite the monastic with God, to dedicate everything to God the whole being, to pray for the whole world, to reach the state of union with God.

Monasticism should not be a kind of social worker or try to make the poor - rich.

In CHRIST

 

[Melchior]

God bless!

It depends how we understand monasticism. The orthodox monastic way is the old way ! You should first study the ancient monstic communities and u will see that the orthodox kept this way intact. Instead of catholic - I think many monstics do not know anymore what the monstic live is for.

The monastic way is the way of intense prayer, fasting, repetence, ascesis, it is God centered and to unite the monastic with God, to dedicate everything to God the whole being, to pray for the whole world, to reach the state of union with God.

Monasticism should not be a kind of social worker or try to make the poor - rich.

In CHRIST

You make an either/or case when there is no need for one. A community can both be dedicated to prayer and service. Mother Theresa’s Sister of Charity comes to mind. Certainly the Egyptian way is older, but that does not mean better. The Catholic Chuch has both kids, those dedicated to prayers and those who are dedicated to service. And those dedicated to both. Why hide your lamp under a basket? Light is meant to shine into a dark world, no?

I honestly don’t understand the idea of complete seperation - this is certainly not what Christ or the Apostles did. To be honest I think it creates some downright strange ideas. I cannot think of the books title but it is about a guy who visits Mt. Athos and this respected old Monk tells him he should leave his wife and children and join the monastery and cannot understand why he would not. I find such a thing appalling. Did this man become more holy in his isolation or more out of touch with reality. I don’t mean to sound harsh but I cannot see how one can be considered a holy man and tell married men to abandon their families. I find such a thinking anti-Christian. I am sure that is not the view of most, but still, it was shocking.

It seems to me that if someone is going to dedicate their lives to Christ they should try to live like Him, for others and not inner focused.

Who knows maybe I am missing something?

Mel

 

[bogoljub]

You make an either/or case when there is no need for one. A community can both be dedicated to prayer and service. Mother Theresa’s Sister of Charity comes to mind. Certainly the Egyptian way is older, but that does not mean better. The Catholic Chuch has both kids, those dedicated to prayers and those who are dedicated to service. And those dedicated to both. Why hide your lamp under a basket? Light is meant to shine into a dark world, no?

I honestly don’t understand the idea of complete seperation - this is certainly not what Christ or the Apostles did. To be honest I think it creates some downright strange ideas. I cannot think of the books title but it is about a guy who visits Mt. Athos and this respected old Monk tells him he should leave his wife and children and join the monastery and cannot understand why he would not. I find such a thing appalling. Did this man become more holy in his isolation or more out of touch with reality. I don’t mean to sound harsh but I cannot see how one can be considered a holy man and tell married men to abandon their families. I find such a thinking anti-Christian. I am sure that is not the view of most, but still, it was shocking.

It seems to me that if someone is going to dedicate their lives to Christ they should try to live like Him, for others and not inner focused.

Who knows maybe I am missing something?

Mel

God bless!

Uhhhhh a very traditional secualrizised understanding of monasticism !

1. You should study the OT Prophets and how they lived - did the Prophet Elias or Elisha were a kind of Brothers of Charity ?
   Or what do u think of St. John the forerunner where did he live - in the city ? Did u not read what the St. Symeon the Godreceiver did and how served God or the Prophetess Hanna ?
   Did u not read that Christ often went to the wilderness to pray and fast ? Was he anti christian ? Or what do u think about the founders of monsticism like St. Anthony the great ? or Pachomius the great ? Did u read St. Makarios ? They all were inner focused ! The essence of the monastic way is to be with God all the time and every labor should made for this goal but also for laity !
   The best thing what u can do for others is to pray for them - so for example did Elder Paisios of Mount Athos. He prayed the whole day for others, for the sick, for the old, for the young, for the imprisoned, for the dying, for the dead, for all…it is better to cleanse yourself from the passions as to convert whole nations to faith ! St. Seraphim said cleans yourself and hundrets around u will find peace.
   The Fathers said Christ did not want mercinaries he wants genuine strugglerrs !
   Like I have said monks and nuns are not like social workers !
   Do u ever have been in an orthodox monastery ? I was and they are great ascetics - I know monks fasting the whole day with intense prayer, sleeping only a few hours on the ground, making thousends of prostrations a day, or their agrypnias wich can take 12 hours - their Liturgies, their chants, everything is concentrated on God and how to serves him, there is nothing secular, confession, communion, obedience, …and the transformation of man into an earthyl angel - the purifying of man, and the union with God ! Befor this transformation we do not even know what is good and what is not - monasticiism has nothing todo with a secular charity or mercy but of course monks will help others as often as they can but this is not the essence of monasticism !

In CHRIST

 

[Ridgerunner]

I can kind of understand ascetic monks like the Trappists, but I couldn’t be one.

Say what you will, but I kind of like the Benedictines myself. Now THERE’s a monastic order!

 

[bogoljub]

I can kind of understand ascetic monks like the Trappists, but I couldn’t be one.

Say what you will, but I kind of like the Benedictines myself. Now THERE’s a monastic order!

God bless!

I was once in a Benedictine Monastery and I doubt if they know for what monasticism is.
It is not important if you are a “great” ascetic or not, it is important to unserstand the “goal” of monasticism !

In CHRIST

 

[wynd]

In reading about monks in both traditions it strikes me how different both are. It seems that Orthodox monasticism is isolated and static. Whereas most of Catholic monasticism has be community involved and active. They were the missionaries of centuries gone by, such as in Ireland. Orthodox monastics seem to be withdrawn from the world - sort of hidden.

I am curious as to why this is.

Mel

I’ve read somewhere that it’s just different views—the Orthodox monastic tradition focuses on divinization and prayer for the whole world, while the Catholic tradition (at least the newer ones, not counting orders like the Carthusians) focuses on service to the poor.

 

[Ridgerunner]

God bless!

I was once in a Benedictine Monastery and I doubt if they know for what monasticism is.
It is not important if you are a “great” ascetic or not, it is important to unserstand the “goal” of monasticism !

In CHRIST

I guess it depends on what you think monasticism should be. If you think all monastic orders should be ascetic and cloistered, then you won’t think of the Benedictines as monastic. If you think monasticism can legitimately vary from that model, then you will think otherwise. I don’t think Jesus spoke of it either way.

I was in a Benedictine Monastery as well; more than once, and I found their order admirable. Manly men, friendly and cheerful, dedicated to scholarhship, prayer and work. I had a great uncle once who was a Benedictine. He was an accomplished scholar in both Latin and Greek. He worked for years under harsh conditions among reservation Indians in South Dakota, and did a lot for them. He then was assigned to pastorless parishes in the Bible Belt. But always, he returned to the monastery, which he loved. Ultimately, he could eventually no longer put in the long hours and the hard work and returned to the monastery permanently, where he taught the young candidates; was a prayerful and deeply inspirational man to all. Throughout it, up until his death, he brought cheer, faith and hope to all who knew him. It is very wrong to say that a man like that is less a monk or stands less well with God than the most otherworldly cloistered monk on earth. Jesus Himself worked in the world, ate the food others ate, drank wine and walked among the people, teaching them, and did not disdain His contact with them. It is wrong to disdain monks who take Him as their model.

 

[paradoxy]

I can’t compare, because I only know Orthodox monasticism first hand.

All I can add is that it is definitely not secluded or out of touch - we are the ones who are. They pray for the whole world and at times honestly believe it is their prayers alone that are keeping it from ending.

Also, they most certainly are a light to the world - but not by being part of worldly things. They are beacons in the darkness and countless faithful come to them for advice, spiritual guidance, or to ‘recharge’ and strengthen their faith.

 

[Mickey]

I can’t compare, because I only know Orthodox monasticism first hand.

All I can add is that it is definitely not secluded or out of touch - we are the ones who are. They pray for the whole world and at times honestly believe it is their prayers alone that are keeping it from ending.

Also, they most certainly are a light to the world - but not by being part of worldly things. They are beacons in the darkness and countless faithful come to them for advice, spiritual guidance, or to ‘recharge’ and strengthen their faith.

Amen!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif

 

[Melchior]

God bless!

Uhhhhh a very traditional secualrizised understanding of monasticism !

1. You should study the OT Prophets and how they lived - did the Prophet Elias or Elisha were a kind of Brothers of Charity ?
   Or what do u think of St. John the forerunner where did he live - in the city ? Did u not read what the St. Symeon the Godreceiver did and how served God or the Prophetess Hanna ?
   Did u not read that Christ often went to the wilderness to pray and fast ? Was he anti christian ? Or what do u think about the founders of monsticism like St. Anthony the great ? or Pachomius the great ? Did u read St. Makarios ? They all were inner focused ! The essence of the monastic way is to be with God all the time and every labor should made for this goal but also for laity !
   The best thing what u can do for others is to pray for them - so for example did Elder Paisios of Mount Athos. He prayed the whole day for others, for the sick, for the old, for the young, for the imprisoned, for the dying, for the dead, for all…it is better to cleanse yourself from the passions as to convert whole nations to faith ! St. Seraphim said cleans yourself and hundrets around u will find peace.
   The Fathers said Christ did not want mercinaries he wants genuine strugglerrs !
   Like I have said monks and nuns are not like social workers !
   Do u ever have been in an orthodox monastery ? I was and they are great ascetics - I know monks fasting the whole day with intense prayer, sleeping only a few hours on the ground, making thousends of prostrations a day, or their agrypnias wich can take 12 hours - their Liturgies, their chants, everything is concentrated on God and how to serves him, there is nothing secular, confession, communion, obedience, …and the transformation of man into an earthyl angel - the purifying of man, and the union with God ! Befor this transformation we do not even know what is good and what is not - monasticiism has nothing todo with a secular charity or mercy but of course monks will help others as often as they can but this is not the essence of monasticism !

In CHRIST

Please just stop this social worker nonsense, okay? That is just a baseless sterotype.

One glaring thing stands out to me in your comparison of the Biblical monastics and later Eastern ones. All the ones you mentioned from scripture did it in preparation to go out and preach repentance to sinners not to stay hidden away. Everyone of them, Elijah and Elisha, John the Baptist and of course Jesus, prepared themselved for ministry to others, not just for themselves. So you can criticize Western monastics as “social workers” if you want, but the great western tradition of Monasticism looks far more like the Biblical models than those who never leave their communities. Christ’s life was lived for others in the open. When he went away it was for a purpose, it was preperation.

 

[Melchior]

I can kind of understand ascetic monks like the Trappists, but I couldn’t be one.

Say what you will, but I kind of like the Benedictines myself. Now THERE’s a monastic order!

Exactly.

But the Trappists at least make great beer.

 

[Melchior]

I can’t compare, because I only know Orthodox monasticism first hand.

All I can add is that it is definitely not secluded or out of touch - we are the ones who are. They pray for the whole world and at times honestly believe it is their prayers alone that are keeping it from ending.

Also, they most certainly are a light to the world - but not by being part of worldly things. They are beacons in the darkness and countless faithful come to them for advice, spiritual guidance, or to ‘recharge’ and strengthen their faith.

I appreciate this, but why can’t Orthodoxy have both. The Biblical model is one of ascesis and action, of dining with tax collectors and sinners. I honestly find the eastern model (as an exclusive model) to be little different from the far eastern model of the Buddhists.

 

[Mickey]

why can’t Orthodoxy have both. The Biblical model is one of ascesis and action

Ceaseless prayer is the best ascesis and action.

 

[bogoljub]

I guess it depends on what you think monasticism should be. If you think all monastic orders should be ascetic and cloistered, then you won’t think of the Benedictines as monastic. If you think monasticism can legitimately vary from that model, then you will think otherwise. I don’t think Jesus spoke of it either way.

I was in a Benedictine Monastery as well; more than once, and I found their order admirable. Manly men, friendly and cheerful, dedicated to scholarhship, prayer and work. I had a great uncle once who was a Benedictine. He was an accomplished scholar in both Latin and Greek. He worked for years under harsh conditions among reservation Indians in South Dakota, and did a lot for them. He then was assigned to pastorless parishes in the Bible Belt. But always, he returned to the monastery, which he loved. Ultimately, he could eventually no longer put in the long hours and the hard work and returned to the monastery permanently, where he taught the young candidates; was a prayerful and deeply inspirational man to all. Throughout it, up until his death, he brought cheer, faith and hope to all who knew him. It is very wrong to say that a man like that is less a monk or stands less well with God than the most otherworldly cloistered monk on earth. Jesus Himself worked in the world, ate the food others ate, drank wine and walked among the people, teaching them, and did not disdain His contact with them. It is wrong to disdain monks who take Him as their model.

God bless !

We do not accept different orders ! Ther are monks and laity nothing more - we have no different orders- we have some different typicons but that’s all.

It is not important what u think or what I think, you should ask what God thinks !

We have no dualism in the orthodox church - usuall all people should live like monastics- you can also be married and live like a monstic the goal is to unite with God and to reach the Theosis.
There were many married Saints and they too reached that state.
So usuall we ONE way to God for all christians ! Monks only have the complete “programm” and we have the shortened one but not two different ways . The orthodox church is a monastic and ascetic church.

You have a wrong concept of monastism as cloistered or foreign to world - in orthodoxy their are not cloistered monasteries.
Even hermits on Mount Athos are not “cloistered” in the negative sense you use - they pray for me and for you - they are united with us, with our pains and sorrows, we are united in God and not in a secular way. And this union is the best that could exist.

Why do u think thousends of People go the hermits in the russian forrest and tell them their problems ? Are they cloistered- was St. Seraphim cloistered in your sense ?

I think u miss the point of monasticism - the transformation of the human person. Monasticism has nothing todo with working or studing in a secular sense - working must be a spiritual work for union with God and not only to work-it would be labour in vain !

U know everything should be a link to God and transformation.
The icons are spiritual images to lift us up and the byzantine chanting is only to transform our soul by listening, the incence, the prayers, fasting, obedience, the prostrations, the services, the rituals, the symbols, are only “tools” for this transformation. In monasteries even the meal is a divine Service !

And believe me it works - I witnessed such transformed humans -
you can experience the grace of God even only to talk with them.

Christ came to earth to unite us with God and not to make the poor people welthy or to found some charity organisation.
But also the service for our Brother can be a llink to God and a “tool” for union and theosis but we should never forget that we do it to unite with God and not of secular reasons. This would be in vain.

BTW Do u not know the Prophecies of St. Anthony the great - about the monks living in the city and that they became the same as the world ?

We should not try to make the Church “worldly” we should try to make the world “Churchy” We should bring the blessing and transformation in the whole world even to the animal and plants to the whole cosmos !

In CHRIST

 

[Mickey]

God bless !

We do not accept different orders ! Ther are monks and laity nothing more - we have no different orders- we have some different typicons but that’s all.

It is not important what u think or what I think, you should ask what God thinks !

We have no dualism in the orthodox church - usuall all people should live like monastics- you can also be married and live like a monstic the goal is to unite with God and to reach the Theosis.
There were many married Saints and they too reached that state.
So usuall we ONE way to God for all christians ! Monks only have the complete “programm” and we have the shortened one but not two different ways . The orthodox church is a monastic and ascetic church.

You have a wrong concept of monastism as cloistered or foreign to world - in orthodoxy their are not cloistered monasteries.
Even hermits on Mount Athos are not “cloistered” in the negative sense you use - they pray for me and for you - they are united with us, with our pains and sorrows, we are united in God and not in a secular way. And this union is the best that could exist.

Why do u think thousends of People go the hermits in the russian forrest and tell them their problems ? Are they cloistered- was St. Seraphim cloistered in your sense ?

I think u miss the point of monasticism - the transformation of the human person. Monasticism has nothing todo with working or studing in a secular sense - working must be a spiritual work for union with God and not only to work-it would be labour in vain !

U know everything should be a link to God and transformation.
The icons are spiritual images to lift us up and the byzantine chanting is only to transform our soul by listening, the incence, the prayers, fasting, obedience, the prostrations, the services, the rituals, the symbols, are only “tools” for this transformation. In monasteries even the meal is a divine Service !

And believe me it works - I witnessed such transformed humans -
you can experience the grace of God even only to talk with them.

Christ came to earth to unite us with God and not to make the poor people welthy or to found some charity organisation.
But also the service for our Brother can be a llink to God and a “tool” for union and theosis but we should never forget that we do it to unite with God and not of secular reasons. This would be in vain.

BTW Do u not know the Prophecies of St. Anthony the great - about the monks living in the city and that they became the same as the world ?

We should not try to make the Church “worldly” we should try to make the world “Churchy” We should bring the blessing and transformation in the whole world even to the animal and plants to the whole cosmos !

In CHRIST

Dear bogoljub,

Thank you for your excellent description of the nature of monasticism in Holy Orthodoxy. I would suggest that anyone who is interested in learning about the essence of the relationship between Orthodox monasticism and the laity–try to get a copy of the movie, “Ostrov”.

God bless

 

[jam070406]

I wasn’t aware monasticism was a competition.

 

[Melchior]

I wasn’t aware monasticism was a competition.

Oh it totally is! There is going to be a Olympic beer making monk competition.

Maybe “vs.” was a poor choice, but I was looking for a comparison because both traditions seem to have a very different philosophical idea about what monasticisms goal is or should be.

 

[inthecloud]

Orthodox monastiscism is based on St Basil order.
Is purelly contemplative, as are western catholics orders like the Trappists, Benedictines and Carmelistes for example.
The problem is that the Western Church did had to fill the huge vacumm of the fall of the western Roman Empire. So orders like the Benedictines, contemplative in nature took a more active role in evangelization. That feature became official with the creation of preaching and teaching monks, the friars like the Franciscan, Agustinian, Dominicans and Carmelites. And also the social service orders like the Hospitallers that had also a military function, and there were pure military orders like the Templars.
Remember that the Western Church makes a technical difference between Monks and Nuns, who are contemplative like their Eastern bethren. Friars who are contemplative but have a more active role, brothers and sisters like the Sisters of Mercy and Mother Theresa’ Missionaries of Charity who are devoted to health and education to the poor.

 

[jam070406]

Oh it totally is! There is going to be a Olympic beer making monk competition.

Maybe “vs.” was a poor choice, but I was looking for a comparison because both traditions seem to have a very different philosophical idea about what monasticisms goal is or should be.

I understand.

Haven’t you learned by now that all you need to know about Orthodox praxis is that is NOT like those Catholics.